Is Jesus Christ also Michael the Arch Angel ?

[Webb]

Hi WestTexas----A very, very good point, thanks.
God bless

 

[Free]

What scripture says He is not ? None, so that makes us even from that point.

My point exactly. So please stop asking for Scripture.

No confusion here. Angel means Messenger ! Jesus Christ is refered to as an Messenger Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Now if Christ be a Messenger, why Not Be the Chief one ? The word Arch in Arch Angel is the word
archō:
to be chief, to lead, to rule,

the head or leaer of an organized body of people; the person highest in authority:
Was their a Messenger of Higher Authority than the Messenger of the Covenant which is Christ ?

Again, this is a significant error in your reasoning. Jesus is God, not an angel.

If Michael and our Lord Jesus are one and the same-why did he not rebuke the devil in Jude?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[lw9]

Savebygrace: What scripture says He is not ?

Heb 1:4 So He became as much superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be My Son”?

savedbdgrace, would you address the above scripture. It flat-out states Jesus is not an angel and that God has never called any angel His Son.

 

[westtexas]

Dan 10:13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, (ESV)

If that were speaking of Jesus, that would mean that he has at least one other equal.

Bumping this one up for you SBG. This scripture is quite clear. If our Lord Jesus is Michael then He has at least one equal. You have asked Free for scripture but have failed to address the verses he has provided.

 

[Sparkey]

People who ride bicycles in downtown Manhattan traffic as delivery boys are messengers too. The bible does not say they are not angels.

What does the Bible say?

2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God

 

[savedbygrace57]

free

So please stop asking for Scripture.

Likewise !

west texas

SBG, let me get your opinion on a couple verses if they haven't been discussed
and I just missed them.

I have discussed them in the thread already !

Jesus is God, not an angel.

He is both, unless you deny Jesus is the Messenger of Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

You also would deny that the Angel of the LORD, the OT Theoohany is also God, even Christ !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Bumping this one up for you SBG. This scripture is quite clear. If our Lord Jesus is Michael then He has at least one equal. You have asked Free for scripture but have failed to address the verses he has provided.

I have addressed all those verses before in the Thread , you need to read it, start from the beginning.

 

[Sparkey]

He is both, unless you deny Jesus is the Messenger of Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Isaiah 40:3
A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord[a];
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God​

Consider this messenger as revealed in Mal 4:5.

Speaking of John, the Baptist, Jesus said, "And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come."

Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Yes, consider the references from Exodus and the Prophets:

Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

Then Haggai, the Lord’s messenger, gave this message of the Lord to the people: “I am with you,” declares the Lord.

8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them.

Read again: Isaiah 40:3
Read again: Mal 4:5
Read again: Mat 11:14

Now examine Luke 1:17

And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

Look later when John's father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:

Luke 1:76 And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
78 because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
79 to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace.”
80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.
​

 

[savedbygrace57]

sparrow

Consider this messenger as revealed in Mal
4:5.

Do you deny that the Messenger of the Covenant in Mal 3:1 is Christ with John as His forerunner ?

 

[Sparkey]

sparrow



Do you deny that the Messenger of the Covenant in Mal 3:1 is Christ with John as His forerunner ?

have I used the word "deny" -- you are free to draw your own conclusions, Mal 4:5 states who the messenger is. I know this is a debate forum, but really, must I debate just because I don't agree with you that Michael the Archangel is Jesus? Jesus is all in all, so by that way of thinking you're him too. I just don't go as far as to think that this is literal because I was born and before I was born, I wasn't. That's all. Same goes for all creatures borne or not. Who is eternal? Who were created? Jesus is God with us. He became lower than the angels and tabernacle'd with us. He is the Son of God and came in flesh. There is no part of me that believes that Jesus wasn't flesh or didn't come in the flesh. That's all. There are Scriptures about "The Angel of the Lord" and I recall the fiery furnace. I don't have a problem with thinking that God is the "angel of the Lord" but when we speak of Michael, the arch-angel - and try to make this angelic creature equal to the creator? No, that's going too far.

Isn't this belief a stable from the table of the JW's? Pretty sure that's what they preach/believe.

Here is an answer found on Yahoo: Answers

Even JWs will admit that if one were to have walked up to any of the apostles or disciples of Christ and asked them who Jesus was, they would not have said, "Well, he’s Michael the Archangel!" Not only was the very idea was unheard of before Charles Taze Russell (the founder of the WTS), but the Bible explicitly rejects the possibility of it.

For example, the author of Hebrews states, "To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my son? . . . Let all the angels of God worship him. . . . Your throne, O God, stands firm forever. . . . O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands’ . . . to which of the angels has he ever said ‘Sit at my right hand . . . ’" (Heb. 1). Here, the author of Hebrews separates Jesus from angels, and commands the angels to worship him (cf. Rev 5:13-14;14:6-7). The obvious problem is this: Archangels are creatures, but the Bible forbids any creature to worship another creature. Thus, either the Bible is in error by commanding the angels to worship an archangel, or Jesus is uncreated and cannot be an archangel. Since this gave the JWs a tremendous problem, they even had to change their own Bible translation, called the New World Translation (NWT), to eliminate the references to worshipping Christ. (The 1950, 1961, and 1970 editions of the NWT read "worship" in Hebrews 1:6.) Beyond this, Jesus has the power to forgive sins and give eternal life, but no angel has this capacity.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sparrow

have I used the word "deny"

I did not say you used the word deny did I ? I asked do you deny that the Messenger of the Covenant in Mal 3:1 is Christ preceded by His forerunner John. Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

 

[Sparkey]

Asked and answered, SBG57, asked and answered.

I replied with approximately two hundred and thirty-three words (of which you quoted six). Within my reply was a quote from another answer to a similar question that contained approximately two hundred and forty-four words, within both of those replies were references from the "tagger" plug-in that provided approximately ninety-eight more words, directly quoted from the Bible.

Am I to assume that you've read only the first six words of my reply and then hastily hit the "reply with quote" button and trimmed the parts you skipped? If that be the case, may I suggest you re-read my reply and refrain from asking me again until you've properly grappled with the conundrum as presented.

Here is the synopsis, for your convenience:

• Jesus has the power to forgive sins and give eternal life, but no angel has this capacity.
• Heb 1:6 commands angels to worship Him.
• Several passages found in Hebrews, chapter 1 directly oppose the idea
• Mal 4:5 speaks of the Messenger which needs to be included in the exegesis of Mal 3:1

I'm willing to give a "synopsis" of my previous post for your convenience as well. It was made in Post #91 and is available for your consideration.

Above all comes the declarations of Peter about anti-Christ spirits which have gone out into the world. The idea that Jesus was not born in flesh is anathema. I notice though that you have not directly stated such things and am glad of that, at least. Jesus came as flesh and upon him was poured out the Holy Spirit without measure. John 3:34, Matthew 12:18, Luke 4:18, Acts 1:2, Acts 10:38.

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.


5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father” ?​

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son” ?​

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
​

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
​

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
​

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
​

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet” ?​

14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

 

[westtexas]

I have addressed all those verses before in the Thread , you need to read it, start from the beginning.

I"ve actually read every post word by word SBG. I hadn't really put any thought to this subject before. I've learned quite a bit. But I noticed one thing. The scriptures that Free, Jeff and Dora brought before you 3 years ago were dodged then and now Free, Sparrow, and a couple others offer scripture to you and it is again dodged. All they recieve is your pat answer "Jesus is a messenger-Michael is a messenger-thus Jesus is Michael". As an interested reader-I'd love to hear you refute their scripture with scripture and not just with opinion and logic. Maybe I can learn a little more.

 

[jasoncran]

jesus cant be micheal. micheal if he was jesus wouldn't have to say to the devil the Lord rebuke thee , since he is the LORD. few scholars that I know would say jesus is the archangel.

 

[westtexas]

jesus cant be micheal. micheal if he was jesus wouldn't have to say to the devil the Lord rebuke thee , since he is the LORD. few scholars that I know would say jesus is the archangel.

I've gotta agree with you brother.

 

[savedbygrace57]

west

"Jesus is a messenger-Michael is a messenger-thus Jesus is Michael".

Thats correct, because Michael is not only a Messenger, but the Chief of them, and so if Christ is a Messenger He would be the Chief of them ! Scripture only mentions one Arch Angel or Messenger. Michael. Do you believe Michael therefore was ranked Higher than Christ the Messenger of the Covenant ? Mal 3:1

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason

jesus cant be micheal. micheal if he was jesus wouldn't have to say to the
devil the Lord rebuke thee ,

Thats not True, for we have an incident in scripture when the Lord told satan the same thing here Zech 3:2

And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

 

[childeye]

I have a question. How does knowing Michael was Jesus or Jesus was Michael add to my knowledge of God or the workings of heaven and earth?

 

[Free]

Thats correct, because Michael is not only a Messenger, but the Chief of them, and so if Christ is a Messenger He would be the Chief of them ! Scripture only mentions one Arch Angel or Messenger. Michael. Do you believe Michael therefore was ranked Higher than Christ the Messenger of the Covenant ? Mal 3:1

You really need to start addressing the passages that have been given as evidence against your position. Simply repeating your wrongful assertion does not make it true. You have been shown some significant errors in your logic and exegesis that you need to address.

 

[reba]

I find the claim of Jesus being a created being heresy and should be treated as such... Christ is the Creator not the created.