Is Jesus Christ also Michael the Arch Angel ?

[Free]

Jesus was Begotten, for it reads that He is the only begotten of the Father.

Is being begotten similar to being created ? In that they both mean being brought into existence.

Lets see. the word begt in the dictionary is:

1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce

The word create in the dictionary:

To cause to exist; bring into being. To give rise to; produce

Hmm, looks very similar to me !

I sure hope you didn't just look that up in a modern dictionary and think that that supports your arguments.

 

[Elijah674]

Rev 12:


7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This scripture testified of a great conflict between Michael and the Dragon, which is Satan, the Arch Angel is none other than The Lord Jesus Christ; For this is known because of the words Arch Angel, which means Chief Messenger, and so what Greater Messenger than Jesus Christ ? Who By the Way is the Messenger of the Covenant Mal 3:

1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger or prince of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

In Daniel 10 21


21But I will shew thee [Daniel] that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Michael is here said to be Daniels Prince !! see acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Christ here is called a Prince along with being called a Saviour or Deliverer, Now, who is Daniels Prince and Saviour, but the Lord Jesus Christ ?

In Daniel 12:

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Michael is called the Great Prince of thy People , again, this could be none other than The Prince and Saviour of Israel [acts 5:31] Gods Chosen People.

Hi, I cannot seem to stay on this thread?? + the subject requires more words than I am allowed to post!;)

Anyway, if you want a good study on this question, type in 'Bible Lite' above on 'Search Web' & you will find by looking at the contents there, a subject with that heading.. if I remember correctly! The study is a good one.

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

I sure hope you didn't just look that up in a modern dictionary and think that that supports your arguments.

I can only show you the Truth, I cannot make you believe it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Huh? What makes him "more than the ordinary Man" and "more than the ordinary Messenger?"

Jesus is the God-man, not the God-archangel-man.

Your point is mute, An Angel is called God all through the OT !

 

[jasoncran]

jason:



Lame. Why did not the LORD remind Satan that He could rebuke him ? zech 3:

1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan;

Why did not the LORD just say, I rebuke you satan ?

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/zec3.pdf

read that from a more literal translation and it says this yahweh says he will rebuke you.

interesting that is from third person.

as if somone was observing.

 

[Free]

I can only show you the Truth, I cannot make you believe it.

If you quoted from a modern dictionary than it is not necessarily what Scripture says.

Your point is mute, An Angel is called God all through the OT

That doesn't make my point "moot". If an angel is speaking for God as his representative, he may be called God.

So I ask again, what makes Jesus "more than the ordinary Man" and "more than the ordinary Messenger?"

 

[savedbygrace57]

free:

If you quoted from a modern dictionary than it is not necessarily what Scripture says.

You have ignored many of my points supported by scripture, just read back through the thread, and you will see your hypocrisy exposed.

 

[savedbygrace57]

free:

That doesn't make my point "moot".

Sure it does, God appears as an Angel ! Jesus Christ is the Only Represenative of God,and He is an Angel, a Messenger.

So I ask again, what makes Jesus "more than the ordinary Man" and "more than the ordinary Messenger?"

He is God !

 

[savedbygrace57]

free:

My point was that Jesus is obviously more than just a man, since you are arguing he is, or might be, Michael, who clearly existed prior to the birth of Jesus.

Jesus clearly existed before His birth by mary. His origin is heaven !

Jn 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jn 6:38

For I [Jesus] came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 

[theLords]

free:



You have ignored many of my points supported by scripture, just read back through the thread, and you will see your hypocrisy exposed.

SGB, are you a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon?

 

[savedbygrace57]

SGB, are you a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon?

No !

 

[Elijah674]

It is sad indeed how satan attacks the person instead of the scripture material presented. Unless some think that that is an ministering spirits work?? 2 Cor. 4:2


Amazing Facts

on this subject!

 

[Mike]

Savedbygrace57, seriously. You need to ratchet down you tenor. I believe you need to examine yourself for your motives and the demeanor with which you are dealing with fellow believers.

More to come in a PM.

Keep it civil.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Lord Jesus is greater than angels.

 

[gr8grace]

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Lord Jesus is greater than angels.

Yes. He has this stuff on a bunch of forums. I have seen very respectful and generous debates with Him. And it does not matter.

Its disturbing stuff in my opinion.

 

[stranger]

Yes. He has this stuff on a bunch of forums. I have seen very respectful and generous debates with Him. And it does not matter.

Its disturbing stuff in my opinion.

Agreed gr8grace - the moderators can look into this. I drew the attention of the moderators to your post - so as to highlight the problem.

 

[stranger]

No !

Then tell us plainly what you are because your doctrine is similar to theirs - and these are cults.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Then tell us plainly what you are because your doctrine is similar to theirs - and these are cults.

I am not here to discuss me. You can see all that I believe on my threads.

 

[JLB]

free:



Sure it does, God appears as an Angel ! Jesus Christ is the Only Represenative of God,and He is an Angel, a Messenger.



He is God !

The Angel of The Lord is a reference to Jesus before He became flesh.

However the distinction is clear in Daniel 10 -

4 Now on the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, that is, the Tigris, 5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. 7 And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision; but a great terror fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8 Therefore I was left alone when I saw this great vision, and no strength remained in me; for my vigor was turned to frailty in me, and I retained no strength. 9 Yet I heard the sound of his words; and while I heard the sound of his words I was in a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground. 10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. 11 And he said to me, "O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you." While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling. 12 Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.


His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. Daniel 10:6

This is a reference to Jesus -

14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; Revelation 1:14-15

The voice of many waters and voice of the multitude are referencing the same idea.

This is seen in Revelation 19:6 -

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters


Michael the Arch Angel did not create the heavens and the earth.

Michael the Arch Angel did not become flesh.

Michael the arch Angel was not exalted to the right hand of God as seen in Revelation 12.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Revelation 12:7-10

Jesus is seated at the right hand of God during this event.

At least you confess Jesus as God.


JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

jlb

The Angel of The Lord is a reference to Jesus before He became flesh.

Ok ! Heb 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.