Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[Randy]

I believe the Father is in the Son as Jesus taught. The One True God (The Father) came down to us "through" the Son. Jesus has always been the Son.

Thank you Randy for Sharing. That has been part of the issue with this thread. What you just said is not the Trinity Doctrine. Some who question the Trinity Doctrine are under the assumption the rest of the people that believe in monotheism (One GOD) are trinitarian, when in fact they are not. Your not Trinitarian but something else, so we go into these conversations already preconceiving what each believe and it just makes it that much harder to discuss these things.

Blessings Brother.

Mike.

I hold to this:
One God, One Lord , One Spirit
Father, Son, Holy Spirit

I am one who follows what is written. It was man who attempted to explain One God in 3 persons. I believe Jesus and the Father are One in the manner Jesus taught and Paul wrote.

You see Jesus called the Father the One True God and His God. Check to see if what I state is true. Jesus uses TRUTH. Paul wrote the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him and Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation. Check to see if what I state is true. The Father states He is the one who set Jesus above all and He is Jesus's God. Jesus stated the Father was greater then Him. Check to see if what I wrote is true. Jesus stated He remains in the Father Love because He always does what pleases the Father in the same context we are to remain in His will by obeying His commands. Check to see if what I wrote is true. Jesus has His own spirit (The Him the fullness was pleased to dwell in) as in Father into your hands I commit "My Spirit". And Jesus over and over calls Himself the Son.

Baptize in the name of the Father, SON, Holy Spirit. Isn't that what Jesus stated? "Son"

I think Jesus would disagree with stating He always was and always was God. I think Jesus would state as a wrote.

He never dies
He Has always been the Son.
He is all that the Father is.

Jesus is called both God and Son. But context gives a yes and no answer to the question "Is Jesus God?"


As the Son Jesus can express how He felt at any given moment, (not the Father), such as, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me". Its clear to me the Father didn't feel that way about David or Jesus.

 

[Brother Mike]

I hold to this:
One God, One Lord , One Spirit
Father, Son, Holy Spirit

I am one who follows what is written. It was man who attempted to explain One God in 3 persons. I believe Jesus and the Father are One in the manner Jesus taught and Paul wrote.

Thank you Randy, that is not a "Defined" doctrine, it's not Trinity Doctrine. That would make you a Modelist. You want to define it the way you see it. Nothing wrong with that. I am not a oneness, modelist, or a trinitarian.

Jesus is called both God and Son. But context gives a yes and no answer to the question "Is Jesus God?"

Jesus is clearly God if your just sticking to scriptures you find. Thomas called him God, John Called him the True God, and The Father God called Him God. We have 3 accounts there where is called God.

Jesus called man God when they accused him of making himself to be God, and even as He is, so are we in this World so that would be 4 accounts of Jesus being God.

I think Jesus would disagree with stating He always was and always was God. I think Jesus would state as a wrote.

Jesus did not correct the men whole said He made himself out to be God, He told them they also were in the same boat as Him. Not a direct omission, but if we are in Him, then I think it was sort of clear He is telling us He is God also.

Thomas said "My God!!!" It would have been a great time to correct Thomas, but the Lord did not. The Lord did say why call me good, there is none good but my Father, so one would have to guess that Thomas calling Him God would have been corrected.

Jesus asked the Father to give him the same Glory He had before the World was even created. Not an admission of being "God" but the bible only talks about two when Adam was created, Making man in their image. One might correctly guess that Jesus is God before He came in the flesh.

He never dies
He Has always been the Son.
He is all that the Father is.

To me this makes the best explanation. I am not sure why Trinitarian, Oneness and Modelist attempt to lump all 3 into One, or take one and split them into 3. The son was always here with the Father, not His Father. The Holy Spirit was never called God, never speaks on His own but is God's Spirit. (The Father) whom Jesus went back to the Father and had the Father Send the Holy Spirit to us.

Trinity avoids all the scripture contradiction such as Who prayed to who, and It was the Son that came and died for us 2nd person of the Trinity, not God incarnate, or the creator. Yet Trinity has it's mystery part that all 3 are actually One God but all 3 are also God and keeps them separate. How they are just One is the Mystery part of the doctrine. Nobody knows, and it's not found in scripture where they got lumped together and yet 3 Gods.

That is the stance I take. Jesus is the son, Always been with the Father, The Father made all things through and for Jesus by whom the Father created the Worlds. Gave everything to the son by which we are joint heirs. There are two Thrones, two different descriptions of Jesus and the Father in Rev and the Father again in Eze chapter 1.

ZERO scripture contradictions.

However, that labels me a polytheist and nobody wants to be called that do they?

Your right, these are doctrines of men. They were made in a time when false god's and idles were being mixed into Christianity and to be labeled and polytheist would make one a heathen. I believe we can do better than that, and have the study tools that those that made the doctrines did not have.

Blessings.
Mike.

 

[By Grace]

Jesus is God, the Father is God. That is 2 Gods, or 2 in One God.

Do you consider Holy Spirit to be God?

 

[Brother Mike]

Do you consider Holy Spirit to be God?

By definition, He would be in the God class.

However, one can not ignore the 26 times He is the Spirit "OF" God
or the 20 some times God said he was My Spirit, taking ownership of him.
You can't ignore the Holy Spirit never speaks of His own, but only things He hears.
You can't ignore the Holy Spirit was never addressed as God.
You can't ignore the Holy Spirit does not have a throne.



Mike.

 

[By Grace]

By definition, He would be in the God class.

Have you considered the SCRIPTURES behind the statements here?

His personality is proved

(1) from the fact that the attributes of personality, as intelligence and volition, are ascribed to him (John 14:17, 26; 15:26; 1 Cointhians 2:10, 11; 12:11). He reproves, helps, glorifies, intercedes (John 16:7–13; Romans 8:26).
(2) He executes the offices peculiar only to a person. The very nature of these offices involves personal distinction (Luke 12:12; Acts 5:32; 15:28; 16:6; 28:25; 1 Corinthians 2:13; Hebrews 2:4; 3:7; 2 Peter 1:21).
​

His divinity is established

(1) from the fact that the names of God are ascribed to him (Exodus 17:7; Psalm 95:7; comp. Hebrews 3:7–11); and
(2) that divine attributes are also ascribed to him, omnipresence (Psalm 139:7; Ephesians 2:17, 18; 1 Corinthians 12:13); omniscience (1 Corinthians 2:10, 11); omnipotence (Luke 1:35; Romans 8:11); eternity (Hebrews 9:4).
(3) Creation is ascribed to him (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30), and the working of miracles (Matthew. 12:28; 1 Corinthians. 12:9–11).
(4) Worship is required and ascribed to him (Isaiah 6:3; Acts 28:25; Romans 9:1; Revelation 1:4; Matthew 28:19).
​

Easton, M. G. (1893). Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.

Or have you considered these facts and Scriptures?

15 Facts about the Holy Spirit

1. He is onmipresent................... Psalm 139:7

2. He is omniscient....................1 Corinthians 2:10-11

3. He is omnipotent.................... Genesis 1:2

4. He is eternal......................... Hebrews 9:14

5. He is called God....................Acts 5:3-4

6. He is equal with the Father and with the Son...................Mathew. 28:19-20

7. He has a mind.................................Romans 8:27

8. He searches out the human mind................1 Cointhians. 2:10

9. He has a will. .........................1 Corinthians 12:11

10. He forbids............................Acts 16:6-7

11. He leads................................Acts 16:10

12. He speaks. ..................Acts 8:29

13. He loves...................Romans 15:30

14. He grieves.......................Ephesians 4:30

15. He prays....................Romans 8:26Willmington, H. (1987).
​

Willmington’s book of Bible lists (147–148). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.

In EACH of those Scriptures which I cited, you will not find anything similar to your statement above.

However, one can not ignore the 26 times He is the Spirit "OF" God

This is a designation if His deity, not of possession, ownership, or of subordination

or the 20 some times God said he was My Spirit, taking ownership of him.

DITTO

You can't ignore the Holy Spirit never speaks of His own, but only things He hears.

if you look at that carefully, you will see that jesus said it of Himself. therefore it has no application to Holy Spirit.

You can't ignore the Holy Spirit was never addressed as God.

Look above at the verses that tell us Holy Spirit is omniscient, eternal, omnipresent and omnipotent. then please hoe those attributes could be given to something of a "god class" and NOT be 100% fully god.

You can't ignore the Holy Spirit does not have a throne.

That is not relevant to His being fully God. You are insisting that to be God means to have a throne. Does Jesus have a throne?

 

[King James]

Genesis 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

How does God walk in a garden? Silly question isn't it? The creator of all there is, with no beginning or end, and we question how God can do anything? How are we giving God rules and limitations? Does apologetics mean to apologize for lack of faith?

 

[Guest]

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. Notice it says made him known, meaning the characters that make up the Father. The Holy Spirit. Exodus 33:20 But,†he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.†This is why he sends the Holy Spirit, because his Glory is that powerful. Cheers.

 

[Randy]

Thank you Randy, that is not a "Defined" doctrine, it's not Trinity Doctrine. That would make you a Modelist. You want to define it the way you see it. Nothing wrong with that. I am not a oneness, modelist, or a trinitarian.



Jesus is clearly God if your just sticking to scriptures you find. Thomas called him God, John Called him the True God, and The Father God called Him God. We have 3 accounts there where is called God.

Jesus called man God when they accused him of making himself to be God, and even as He is, so are we in this World so that would be 4 accounts of Jesus being God.




Jesus did not correct the men whole said He made himself out to be God, He told them they also were in the same boat as Him. Not a direct omission, but if we are in Him, then I think it was sort of clear He is telling us He is God also.

Thomas said "My God!!!" It would have been a great time to correct Thomas, but the Lord did not. The Lord did say why call me good, there is none good but my Father, so one would have to guess that Thomas calling Him God would have been corrected.

Jesus asked the Father to give him the same Glory He had before the World was even created. Not an admission of being "God" but the bible only talks about two when Adam was created, Making man in their image. One might correctly guess that Jesus is God before He came in the flesh.

He never dies
He Has always been the Son.
He is all that the Father is.

To me this makes the best explanation. I am not sure why Trinitarian, Oneness and Modelist attempt to lump all 3 into One, or take one and split them into 3. The son was always here with the Father, not His Father. The Holy Spirit was never called God, never speaks on His own but is God's Spirit. (The Father) whom Jesus went back to the Father and had the Father Send the Holy Spirit to us.

Trinity avoids all the scripture contradiction such as Who prayed to who, and It was the Son that came and died for us 2nd person of the Trinity, not God incarnate, or the creator. Yet Trinity has it's mystery part that all 3 are actually One God but all 3 are also God and keeps them separate. How they are just One is the Mystery part of the doctrine. Nobody knows, and it's not found in scripture where they got lumped together and yet 3 Gods.

That is the stance I take. Jesus is the son, Always been with the Father, The Father made all things through and for Jesus by whom the Father created the Worlds. Gave everything to the son by which we are joint heirs. There are two Thrones, two different descriptions of Jesus and the Father in Rev and the Father again in Eze chapter 1.

ZERO scripture contradictions.

However, that labels me a polytheist and nobody wants to be called that do they?

Your right, these are doctrines of men. They were made in a time when false god's and idles were being mixed into Christianity and to be labeled and polytheist would make one a heathen. I believe we can do better than that, and have the study tools that those that made the doctrines did not have.

Blessings.
Mike.

Call me what you like. I use scripture.

Jesus called the Father the One True God. He then later stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT" If Jesus's spirit is God then you believe in two Gods.

"The Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"

About the Father No God was formed before Him and No God will be after Him. The the one and only Son stated it was the Father in Him doing His work. (God with us) They are one in that manner.

Church of the Firstborn: Hebrews 12:23



Randy

 

[Randy]

Jesus is God, the Father is God. That is 2 Gods, or 2 in One God.

Do you consider Holy Spirit to be God?

God is Spirit. The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of truth is the Fathers Spirit. That Spirit searches the mind of the Spirit just as our Spirit searches our minds.

The Father takes ownership of the Holy Spirit such as I will place MY Spirit on Him and He will proclaim justice to the nations. Matthew 12:18

Jesus read from the scroll "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor..."

Those that Listen to the Father and Learn FROM HIM go to the Son. How can one listen to the Father if He is in Heaven? The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears from the mind of the Spirit. As it is written "They will all be taught by God" In us the Holy Spirit who was sent from the FATHER in Jesus's name represents the mind and will of the Son.

Jesus lives forever by the Father and we live forever by Jesus as Jesus taught. Jesus was given the authority to have life in Himself and to give life to whoever He pleases.

Its clear in scripture Jesus is shown as One who the Father gave glory to. The Father has glorified the Son. Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne.

R.

 

[Brother Mike]

That is not relevant to His being fully God. You are insisting that to be God means to have a throne. Does Jesus have a throne?

Yes, Jesus has a throne, just like his Father.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Grace, I am a bible student. I have a few rules.

1) No scripture contradicts any other scripture. Not even one!
2) A good doctrine can interpret scripture consistently. Bad doctrines have to pick and choose. I think you will find this true of all the bad doctrines people give you.
3) I look at the things not mentioned as also important. There are reasons the Holy Spirit left out something we think is clearly there.
4) I look at the weight of the scriptures. If something is true, why do I have 20 others that say different?

God's will to Heal for example. I have scriptures that say God kills and makes alive, I have scripture where God murdered David's child with sickness, I have scripture that God says I will bring all the other sickness on you not mentioned in the book of the law. Then I have Jesus went around healing all that were sick and oppressed of the devil. They all are right, but how are they all right and it be God's will to heal or not to heal? Every single one must not remain a mystery or I have no conclusion about God's will to heal.

The Holy Spirit by His own Words describes all that you gave above, but also He has many more attributes you did not mention.
He is never called God, Even in Acts 5:3-4. No, He is lied to. Something about the Holy Spirit where God says touch not my anointed or do my prophets no harm. God's Spirit on Man brings that direct connection to God. They lied to Peter, who being filled with the Holy Spirit was a witness.

Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

The Holy Spirit bares witness to what is true, or not true. The Holy Spirit knows all the things of God, but not God. He just knows the things of God.

The Holy Spirit is also the seven Spirit mentioned in Isa, and Rev. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Wisdom. Prov 8.

God does everything on earth not by himself, but by His Spirit.

God's Spirit seems to be everywhere on Earth. God does not seem to be everywhere but what He looks into. There are many Scriptures like this.

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God went down to check out the Tower of Babel also. That is how God knew. There is something very different here between God and His Holy Spirit.

So, I just can't label the Holy Spirit God, because he never calls himself that. He has lots of things though that are very dynamic in operations which you mentioned. There are seven parts or attributes He has.

Mans definition of God is what man wants to think God is. This is how man thinks the Holy Spirit is God, because the Holy Spirit defines the Power by which God uses by His Spirit. The Term God does not equate power. That is only in books and movies. The Holy Spirit is vastly different than anything in the Word of God. He knows everything of God, but does not speak on his own.

So, our comforter, Helper, teacher, the one that shows us things to come, the one that operates his gifts.

I can't define Him, He Belongs to God, but not in God's class. The only things the bible defined as being in god's class or like God. Is man, Jesus, the Father. The Holy Spirit is something else not defined by any class. I can't label him as God, because I would need the Holy Spirit to say He is God. I conclude I don't know.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Its clear in scripture Jesus is shown as One who the Father gave glory to. The Father has glorified the Son. Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne.

God is Spirit. The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of truth is the Fathers Spirit. That Spirit searches the mind of the Spirit just as our Spirit searches our minds.

Yes Randy, He belongs to God, Jesus has a throne. Jesus given all things by the Father, by which we are joint heirs. We agree here!!!

I am not calling you a bad things, I just stated your not a Trinitarian, but a Modilist. Most believes that claim to be Trinitarian are not, but borrow the terms from the Trinity Creed. Your statements make you a Modilist, not a trinitarian. That is not a bad thing, it's just what you see and believe. I am neither, because Oneness, Modilist, Trinitarian. (Sabellianism and modal monarchism) are all a belief in Monotheism. I believe Jesus and the Father are not the same person, but Actually a Father and a Son that don't combine in any way to become ONE GOD. They combine as Husband and wife are One Flesh, and work as one.
Jesus is not just a personality of God the creator (God the creator incarnate in the flesh, or His word "part" incarnate in the flesh - Oneness doctrine) but I believe God sent his actual son to speak His word to us in these last days.

Trinity Doctrine keeps all 3 separate, So in that version the 2nd person of the Trinity (Jesus) came. It was not the creator that was incarnate in the flesh. All 3 are creator as all things were created because of the 2nd person by whom all things were made and made for, though the power of the Holy Spirit who spoke let there be by God the Father. All 3 are God and creator, but each person is also God and a different person. This way Trinity keeps out of all the scripture contradictions but somewhere lumps them into ONE GOD. The Trinity says that is the Mystery of Christian Faith. This was to keep Monotheism and not polytheism. In those days you did not want to say you believed in polytheism.

Muslims only have One God, and the Jews only have One God. To me there are 2 Gods, the Father and Son. We are different because we have a Saviour who came to save us.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul counts two, and they are always mentioned separately. I don't buy into that Mystery and I don't believe God had split personalities. (Oneness, Modilist theory)

Blessings.
Mike.

 

[By Grace]

Yes, Jesus has a throne, just like his Father. Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Thank you for your attempt to make an answer.
To whom is the pronoun referring to in what I made bold? The antecedent of the pronoun is God, the Father, and Jesus is seated WITH His Father. therefore you have not made your case.

Unfortunately, you ignored the other 95% of the post. Therefore I repeat it so that you can reply.

Originally Posted by Brother Mike
By definition, He would be in the God class.

Have you considered the SCRIPTURES behind the statements here?

His personality is proved

(1) from the fact that the attributes of personality, as intelligence and volition, are ascribed to him (John 14:17, 26; 15:26; 1 Cointhians 2:10, 11; 12:11). He reproves, helps, glorifies, intercedes (John 16:7–13; Romans 8:26).
(2) He executes the offices peculiar only to a person. The very nature of these offices involves personal distinction (Luke 12:12; Acts 5:32; 15:28; 16:6; 28:25; 1 Corinthians 2:13; Hebrews 2:4; 3:7; 2 Peter 1:21).
​

His divinity is established

(1) from the fact that the names of God are ascribed to him (Exodus 17:7; Psalm 95:7; comp. Hebrews 3:7–11); and
(2) that divine attributes are also ascribed to him, omnipresence (Psalm 139:7; Ephesians 2:17, 18; 1 Corinthians 12:13); omniscience (1 Corinthians 2:10, 11); omnipotence (Luke 1:35; Romans 8:11); eternity (Hebrews 9:4).
(3) Creation is ascribed to him (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30), and the working of miracles (Matthew. 12:28; 1 Corinthians. 12:9–11).
(4) Worship is required and ascribed to him (Isaiah 6:3; Acts 28:25; Romans 9:1; Revelation 1:4; Matthew 28:19).
​

Easton, M. G. (1893). Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.

Or have you considered these facts and Scriptures?

15 Facts about the Holy Spirit

1. He is onmipresent................... Psalm 139:7

2. He is omniscient....................1 Corinthians 2:10-11

3. He is omnipotent.................... Genesis 1:2

4. He is eternal......................... Hebrews 9:14

5. He is called God....................Acts 5:3-4

6. He is equal with the Father and with the Son...................Mathew. 28:19-20

7. He has a mind.................................Romans 8:27

8. He searches out the human mind................1 Cointhians. 2:10

9. He has a will. .........................1 Corinthians 12:11

10. He forbids............................Acts 16:6-7

11. He leads................................Acts 16:10

12. He speaks. ..................Acts 8:29

13. He loves...................Romans 15:30

14. He grieves.......................Ephesians 4:30

15. He prays....................Romans 8:26Willmington, H. (1987).
​

Willmington’s book of Bible lists (147–148). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.

In EACH of those Scriptures which I cited, you will not find anything similar to your statement above.

Originally Posted by Brother Mike
However, one can not ignore the 26 times He is the Spirit "OF" God

This is a designation if His deity, not of possession, ownership, nor of subordination

Originally Posted by Brother Mike
or the 20 some times God said he was My Spirit, taking ownership of him.

DITTO

Originally Posted by Brother Mike
You can't ignore the Holy Spirit never speaks of His own, but only things He hears.

if you look at that carefully, you will see that jesus said it of Himself. therefore it has no application to Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Brother Mike
You can't ignore the Holy Spirit was never addressed as God.

Look above at the verses that tell us Holy Spirit is omniscient, eternal, omnipresent and omnipotent. then please hoe those attributes could be given to something of a "god class" and NOT be 100% fully god.

Originally Posted by Brother Mike
You can't ignore the Holy Spirit does not have a throne.

That is not relevant to His being fully God. You are insisting that to be God means to have a throne.

Thank you for your consideration of the rest of this post.

 

[Randy]

Its clear in scripture Jesus is shown as One who the Father gave glory to. The Father has glorified the Son. Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne.

God is Spirit. The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of truth is the Fathers Spirit. That Spirit searches the mind of the Spirit just as our Spirit searches our minds.

Yes Randy, He belongs to God, Jesus has a throne. Jesus given all things by the Father, by which we are joint heirs. We agree here!!!

I am not calling you a bad things, I just stated your not a Trinitarian, but a Modilist. Most believes that claim to be Trinitarian are not, but borrow the terms from the Trinity Creed. Your statements make you a Modilist, not a trinitarian. That is not a bad thing, it's just what you see and believe. I am neither, because Oneness, Modilist, Trinitarian. (Sabellianism and modal monarchism) are all a belief in Monotheism. I believe Jesus and the Father are not the same person, but Actually a Father and a Son that don't combine in any way to become ONE GOD. They combine as Husband and wife are One Flesh, and work as one.
Jesus is not just a personality of God the creator (God the creator incarnate in the flesh, or His word "part" incarnate in the flesh - Oneness doctrine) but I believe God sent his actual son to speak His word to us in these last days.

Trinity Doctrine keeps all 3 separate, So in that version the 2nd person of the Trinity (Jesus) came. It was not the creator that was incarnate in the flesh. All 3 are creator as all things were created because of the 2nd person by whom all things were made and made for, though the power of the Holy Spirit who spoke let there be by God the Father. All 3 are God and creator, but each person is also God and a different person. This way Trinity keeps out of all the scripture contradictions but somewhere lumps them into ONE GOD. The Trinity says that is the Mystery of Christian Faith. This was to keep Monotheism and not polytheism. In those days you did not want to say you believed in polytheism.

Muslims only have One God, and the Jews only have One God. To me there are 2 Gods, the Father and Son. We are different because we have a Saviour who came to save us.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul counts two, and they are always mentioned separately. I don't buy into that Mystery and I don't believe God had split personalities. (Oneness, Modilist theory)

Blessings.
Mike.

Spirit gives birth to Spirit. Jesus is the offspring (firstborn) of the Father and that has nothing to do with male and female coming together to produce a offspring or a male female union. I have the Spirit of Christ in me so I understand as Jesus taught the Father is in Him and He in us. Though fullness of the Deity in Jesus captures more as in all Gods abilities, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (all that the Father is) and in that Jesus is the One and Only Son at the Fathers side.

I don't even know if the Father always was. (Though its easy to state that) Scripture states He is the beginning and the end. The First and the last. No God formed before Him nor will there be a God formed after Him and all things were created by His will and at His command and Jesus had a hand in all that God created.

I guess we will end here.

Randy

 

[Brother Mike]

Look above at the verses that tell us Holy Spirit is omniscient, eternal, omnipresent and omnipotent. then please hoe those attributes could be given to something of a "god class" and NOT be 100% fully god.

Right, We look at the Bible and God is a class of something. I am not ready to label the Spirit of the Lord as a god, or even God the Father or Jesus. By definition of Theos He is a god, a deity which is just something immortal. The Greek can have a title (Proper Male noun) Such as God defined in the article or God the Father. For me the Holy Spirit is for to much a Gentleman, to loving, for to wide encompassing having seven parts to just throw the label of god on him.

He is the Spirit "OF" God. I don't know what that is. If the Holy Spirit is in us, then God is ever present, the Holy Spirit telling us that which He hears. Like taking God with us wherever we go, we don't see that in the OT because several times God says... "I'll go take a look" We are blessed with the Presence of God 24/7. I don't know what that is Grace, if you know then fine, but I encourage you to know by something you have searched out yourself. We are glad for the past written works, I think the Trinity Doctrine is awesome and fascinating. Better then all the other explanations. However I also understand the time it was written and why. Keep on in the Word!!!

I don't even know if the Father always was. (Though its easy to state that) Scripture states He is the beginning and the end. The First and the last. No God formed before Him nor will there be a God formed after Him and all things were created by His will and at His command and Jesus had a hand in all that God created.

That is what I was Hoping for Randy. You did not commit to someones doctrine and your honest about what you see. it's been my point this whole thread, if we take the different doctrines we run into word contradictions. Trinity creed does the best job, but can't explain the mystery. That is a honest person seeking only what is true, and for that you will continue to learn some amazing things being teachable by the Holy Spirit.

Both say that they are the "I Am" One has to believe Both had always been as Jesus said give me the same Glory that I had before the creation of the World. What the means? Who knows!!!
Who is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. The Spirit with seven parts? The Spirit that gives wisdom, encourages us, never speaks on their own but what he hears, Brings God's presence wherever we go?
I don't know what the is John, I am just thankful. It don't fit into any defined Doctrine a man came up with.

You have reached the conclusion I have been trying to reach with others. We don't know everything. It's man that must make everything fit and it just does not work out that way.

Mike.

 

[By Grace]

We look at the Bible and God is a class of something...

Not only is that statement un-Scriptural and un-provable, but it is also blasphemous.

 

[Guest]

God is in a class separate from sin, a class filled with heavenly love. He's not middle class, he's heavenly class.

 

[JohnD]

In this thread, I would like to focus specifically on the word 'FULLY'. Fully means entirely or wholly. ALL of you! So if Jesus was fully God, he wouldn't of had to pray to the Father to raise Lazarus. Saying that Jesus is fully God is foolish of us, and I'll tell you why. When a born again Christian receives the Holy Spirit, he's not receiving ALL of the Father, no. He's receiving only a portion. That portion is called the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not FULLY God, but rather he is the WAY to God.

Yes, Jesus is the only way to God the Father, but scripture never says that Jesus is in fact THE God the Father. Jesus is the intercessor BETWEEN God the Father and humanity. Notice I said between stating two different parties, God the Father and humanity. God the Father isn't the intercessor between himself and humanity, no. Jesus has an entirely separate role to play. God the Father is the creator, and Jesus is the intercessor. Creator/Intercessor/Two different roles. When you pray, do you pray to God the Father or Jesus?

I am sure this has been refuted six ways from Sunday in the 416 posts since the OP... using this logic, Adam being fully human means that Eve and incidentally every other person in the line are not human... You URK committed the faux pas of redefining "fully" to mean "totally."

The Father is fully God.
The Son is fully God.
The Spirit is fully God.

Together all three are totally God. Individually they are not totally God.

John 1:1 (NASB95)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


1 John 1:2 (NASB95)
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—


Genesis 1:2 (NASB95)
2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.


All three WITH each other in the beginning.


God the Father is NOT the creator. God the Son (preincarnate) is.


He was in company with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the beginning as is established above, but God the Word did all the creatin' alone by himself.

John 1:1-3 (NASB95)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,


No wonder the trinity is so hard for some to understand given the errors of the so-called apostle's creed tenet 1 for starters.

 

[Brother Mike]

Not only is that statement un-Scriptural and un-provable, but it is also blasphemous.

Theos= Of uncertain affinity; a deity, (Deity is anything immortal, such as humans) especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate;

Satan called god of this World. Class Angelic, Immortal spirit, deity. GreeK Theos as Title only.

Grace, get the religion out of your way. Your gonna miss a whole lot of stuff if you don't. READ!!!!!

Theos is not a Greek proper noun.................. Don't you even look things up before accusing me of something? Could you at least try it once before posting back? Just once? Please?

Mike.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=96720]JohnD[/MENTION] cool avatar. nice to meet you.

 

[By Grace]

Grace, get the religion out of your way. Your gonna miss a whole lot of stuff if you don't. READ!!!!!

DUDE!
You need to quit using Greek, since you have not studied the language beyond the level of Strong's Concordance.

2316θεός [theos /theh·os/] n m. Of uncertain affinity, a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; TDNT 3:65; TDNTA 322; GK 2536; 1343 occurrences; AV translates as “God” 1320 times, “god” 13 times, “godly” three times, “God-ward + 4214” twice, and translated miscellaneously five times.

1 a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities.
2 the Godhead, trinity.

2a God the Father, the first person in the trinity.
2b Christ, the second person of the trinity.
2c Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity.
​

3 spoken of the only and true God. 3a refers to the things of God. 3b his counsels, interests, things due to him.
4 whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way. 4a God’s representative or viceregent. 4a1 of magistrates and judges.
​

STRONG'S ENHANCED

from THE THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

A. The Greek Concept of God.​

1. theós in the Usage of Secular Greek. The word theós is used in both singular and plural, definite and indefinite, often with little distinction of sense between the gods, god, the god, and the godhead. The term does not denote a specific personality but the unity of the religious world in spite of its multiplicity. The Greek concept is essentially polytheistic in the sense of belief in an ordered totality of gods. Zeus as the father of gods and men brings this to expression. Since he has the first and last word, piety often associates him quite simply with god. Out of the plurality a hierarchy develops with families of gods and a pantheon. Zeus, Apollo, etc. are called gods, but so is the cosmos, and elemental forces may also be given the name. .......

3. The Personal Being of God.​

a. The Conflict with Anthropomorphism in the Jewish World. The LXX tries to purify the concept of God by minor alterations, e.g., bringing in a divine messenger in Ex. 4:24, or putting “power” for “hand” in Josh. 4:24, or speaking of seeing God’s place instead of God in Ex. 24:10, or saying that God becomes gracious for his repenting in Gen. 6:6-7. Later Hellenists go further by allegorizing the OT, finding abstract content in anthropomorphisms, and substituting philosophical concepts. Yet faith in the personal God remains. Thus Josephus uses alien terms but is still speaking of the living God of his fathers. The rabbis avoid allegorizing but explain anthropomorphisms as divine accommodation to human frailty, though they themselves in prayer call God Father, speak of his ear and hand for their needs, and think of him as weeping over Jerusalem. Stressing God’s will, they do not equate him with his attributes but bring out his personal character. Thus, while both Greeks and Jews eliminate anthropomorphism, the former regard personality as itself anthropomorphic but the latter distinguish between anthropomorphism and faith in the personal God. God is not as we are, but he wills, speaks, and hears.

​

b. The Personal God of the NT. Anthropomorphism is a dead issue in the NT. God’s personal nature is here a living reality disclosed in Christ and the Spirit (2 Cor. 4:6; Rom. 8:27; cf. the prayer “Abba” in Rom. 8:15). We respond to God’s Thou to us with our Thou to God. God is the living God of will and purpose to whom we may come with prayers and cries for aid. He is known to be faithful and true (Rom. 11:29; Jn. 3:33; Tit. 1:2), gracious (Rom. 2:4), righteous (Rom. 1:18), holy, and perfect (Mt. 5:48). These are not abstract descriptions but historical attestations. They are expressed by attributive or predicative adjectives (Rom. 16:27 etc.), by a genitive of theós with noun (Rom. 3:3) or theós with genitive (Rom. 15:5 etc.), by bold equation (1 Jn. 4:8, which makes God the origin and norm of love), by predications referring to his nature (Rom. 16:26; 1 Tim. 1:11), and by equation with neutral predication (Jn. 4:24; 1 Jn. 1:5).​

LXX Septuagint

e.g. exempli gratia, for example

OT Old Testament

NT New Testament

cf. confer, compare

Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1995, c1985). Theological dictionary of the New Testament. Translation of: Theologisches Worterbuch zum Neuen Testament. (329). Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans.




​

Theos is not a Greek proper noun.

I never said otherwise

Greek nouns are declined in number, case and gender. Only in modern Greek, is there something called a proper noun (as opposed to Koine Greek, what is the language of the NT).

Zeal is a good thing if it is connected to knowledge

Originally Posted by Brother Mike
We look at the Bible and God is a class of something...

Not only is that statement un-Scriptural and un-provable, but it REMAINS blasphemous.