Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[Brother Mike]

You create a false dichotomy here. The words say what they mean, and mean what they say.

Here is the orthodox statement about the Trinity:

In the Bible God is manifested as three distinct and divine Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That there are three distinct Persons is manifested that each Person exhibits a distinct will, intellect and emotion.

Here is the deal Grace. Who was Jesus praying to? He was praying to His Father. I create a false Dichotomy? Who is heir? Who?? So one of God's Personality's just manifested to become an heir to every thing All 3 smashed into One made? Really? ...... Wow, NO, there is a Father and a Son, both God, just like the Bible says without anyone having to get mashed into anyone else. It's real simple.

I already Told you Grace your going to hit that wall where it makes absolutely no sense. I have been patience trying to help you but you don't even know what you believe.

An orthodox View of Trinity????????? You just quoted me the Oneness doctrine!!!!

God is manifested as three distinct and divine Persons:

That is not any of the Trinity Doctrines................ ZERO!!!! I explained that to you because I could tell you had no idea what you believed. I tried to help you but pride is getting in your way from getting help.

You said you believed in Trinity and quote me the oneness doctrine?????........... Even the first Niacian Doctrine by which all are based on say there are 3, each God of God. The 3 are 1....... Not One God with a multiple personality disorder.

So don't tell me you believe in Trinity, when you believe the Council of Nicea laid the foundation but was latter reformed in different councils as being Orthodox.

OR................ It could be even worse than what I suspect. You could be a Modalist according to Dr. James White. [...] You [seem to] retain the "Trinity" name and attempt to accumulate from a few scriptures the name without applying the Creedal Formula. This is the boat a whole lot of WOF, Pentecostals and other denominations are in. They claim "Trinity"!!!! without the very Doctrine Called Trinity as outlined by the council of Nicea or any other for that matter. Join the fan club of TBN (Trinity Broadcast Network) who also could not explain what they believe about "Trinity"

[...]

This is not about going around and hunting web pages. Find what best fits your denomination, go and find what they believe, get their Doctrinal Creed. Learn it back to front build your foundation then come talk to me. If your Pentecostal and not Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Then you[ sound like] a Oneness Pentecostal or a Modilist.

If your a Modilist then you have nothing to discuss here because you don't have an actual Trinity Doctrine or Oneness doctrine to discuss. It will be very easy to pick apart your modilist theories because they are your own and not tested. The creedal Doctrine have been tested, and retested for 100's of years.

[...]

Blessings.... and I am praying that you gain insight and wisdom from your studies.

Mike.

 

[By Grace]

Here is the deal Grace.

What I wrote, came from my own words, and from my study. Here are things that you should study:

TRINITY. The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation only in the 4th and 5th centuries. Three affirmations are central to the historic doctrine of the Trinity:
1. there is but one God;
2. the Father, the Son and the Spirit is each fully and eternally God;
3. the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is each a distinct person. Nowhere does the Bible explicitly teach this combination of assertions. It may, nevertheless, be claimed that the doctrine of the Trinity is a profoundly appropriate interpretation of the biblical witness to God in the light of the ministry, death and resurrection-exaltation of Jesus—the ‘Christ event’.
​

I. The biblical basis for Trinitarian confession

The OT witness is fundamentally to the oneness of God. In their daily prayer, Jews repeated the Shema of Dt. 6:4, ‘The Lord our God, the Lord is one’. In this they confessed the God of Israel to be the transcendent creator, without peer or rival. Without the titanic disclosure of the Christ event, no one would have taken the OT to affirm anything but the exclusive, i.e. unipersonal monotheism that is the hallmark of Judaism and Islam. It was NT writers, exploring the implications of the revelation of God in the Son, who first provided the basis for interpreting this monotheism inclusively, i.e. as involving more persons than one. Initially this took Christocentric shape in various forms of the affirmation that Jesus was one with the Father. Recognition of the divine personhood of the Spirit was then seen to follow especially from Jesus’ exaltation Lordship of the Spirit. Once this step had been taken, it was natural for the later Church, which affirmed the unity of the Testaments in one Bible, to seek the Trinity in the OT too.
​

Turner, M., & McFarlane, G. (1996). Trinity. In D. R. W. Wood, I. H. Marshall, A. R. Millard, J. I. Packer & D. J. Wiseman (Eds.), New Bible dictionary (D. R. W. Wood, I. H. Marshall, A. R. Millard, J. I. Packer & D. J. Wiseman, Ed.) (3rd ed.) (1209). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

I suggest that since you do not have a c.v. close to any of these Christian Theologians that you listen to them.

If you want to study the Bible, Here are some verses:

TRINITY
Plural Godhead, Genesis 1:26 (AB); 3:22 (AB).
Threefold benediction, Numbers 6:24–26.
Father, Son in Old Testament, Proverbs 30:2–4.
Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, Isaiah 6:3.
God, Holy Spirit, Isaiah 48:16.
Trinity in one verse, Matthew 28:19.
Oneness of Jesus and God, John 12:44–45; John 15:26–27.
Christ’s trinitarian teaching, John 14:25–31; John 15:26–27.
Trinitarian benediction, 2 Corinthians 13:14.
Christ, God and Holy Spirit, Ephesians 2:22.
Fullness of Deity, Colossians 2:9–10.
Spiritual function of Father and Son, 2 Thessalonians 3:5.
​

Anderson, K. (1996). Where to Find It in the Bible. Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers.

Since these will automatically parsed into a link with the entire verses on them these should be to your benefit.

 

[Brother Mike]

What I wrote, came from my own words, and from my study. Here are things that you should study:

By your writing I already figured it came from you own study. You are not trinitarian or Oneness. You [sound like] a Modilist [to me].

It was NT writers, exploring the implications of the revelation of God in the Son, who first provided the basis for interpreting this monotheism inclusively, i.e. as involving more persons than one. Initially this took Christocentric shape in various forms of the affirmation that Jesus was one with the Father.

The OT never mentioned but ONE GOD. God Himself said there is none like me, formed or created. ONE. (We agree) The NT writers never went out to prove Monotheism. Nowhere, it was only The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. God the father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. One God, and one Mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. They called both God, One the Father, One the Son. Jesus never said He was the Father or One God. He said I am in the Father, as we are in Him. If you seen the Father, you have seen me, but my Father is greater than I.

So through the Son we see the Father, but Jesus is not His Father. A chip off the Old block would be our modern expression.

You stated the Oneness Doctrine, but flip around where convenient. That [makes you sound like] your a Modilist. The bible does not contain a Oneness or Trinity Doctrine. Those are specific Creeds Made by man. This is specifically mentioned in the Doctrines themselves as a Mystery.

Your a lone wolf.........

If you were a Modilist, You might have said so, to avoid confusion. They mix the Oneness Creed with the Trinitarian Creed and even mix and match The different versions to what suits them.

Mike.

 

[Free]

Then not robbery would be 'not a thing to be seized'. I don't see how the same word could mean 'a thing to be held fast.' That would mean equality with God is not a thing to be held fast. Equality with God can not be held fast? That doesn't make sense.

But it does, that's the whole point. Being God in nature, Jesus didn't consider his equality with God something that he should hold on to at all costs. This shows his willingness to become something less than God.

Again, we must not overlook the obvious, and that is verse 7:

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

That "but" is significant because it ties together "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" with "emptied himself." This is the same as saying "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but [instead] emptied himself." If Jesus was not equal with God, then this really makes no sense. What did he empty himself of then, if was not actually equal with God? If he took "the form of a servant" and was "born in the likeness of men," what was his form before that, who was he like?

He was something. He was the God of Israel, the Holy One of Israel, the light of Israel Isa. 10:17

You had previously stated:

His deity is not the issue. The issue is the co-equal part. I agree he was the God of Israel. The thing is the Father is greater. The Father is the true God.

Jesus is our Lord and God but God the Father is God overall including Jesus. God the Father gave Jesus life.

Looking at what the Bible says (all ESV):

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Exo 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Isa 43:10-11, 10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. 11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6-8, 6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. 7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen. 8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other."

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

Isaiah 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,


These passages all show that if, as you claim, Jesus is the God of Israel but not the one true God, then Jesus was a liar because clearly, as the God of Israel, he was claiming to be the one true God, the Creator. In fact, he makes it abundantly clear that there never has been nor ever will be another God.

There is absolutely no biblical support for saying that Jesus is the God of Israel but the Father is the true God. In fact, the Bible is very much against such a position and the passages I have given completely do away with your position. The God of Israel very much is the one true, creator God.

Not to mention what you have stated above goes against what you stated earlier:

Jesus' function was basically to act as a temple for the living God. Jesus was fully a man. Can we say that? Yes. Otherwise how could we hope to be like him. I would not dispute Jesus was God's way of teaching us, in effect, God's way of communicating with man, but the basic truth of Christianity is Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. To say Jesus was God or he was making himself God or equal to God dismisses what he said about himself with respect to the Father.

Was he fully a man and that's it? If I say that Jesus was God am I actually dismissing "what he said about himself with respect to the Father"? Your position is contradictory. You cannot rationally hold to a position which states that Jesus is only a man and that we cannot say he is God, and yet states that he is God, much less the God of Israel but not the one true God.

Now the main point, making the connections:

4. His being made nothing is further explained as "taking the form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men" and "being found in human form ." Notice first that "being born in the likeness of men" is explaining what Paul just meant by "taking the form of a servant"--the two statements are saying the same thing. Next, notice that Paul is contrasting "the form of a servant" and "being found in human form" with what he first stated: "he was in the form of God." This is very significant. If one wants to believe that his being "in the form of God" is not a statement of his "being in very nature God" (NIV), then one must also believe that his "taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" is not a statement about his human nature.

Taking the form of a servant in the likeness of men is saying two things. He was born in the likeness of men and he came not to be served but to serve. The Spirit of God descended from heaven in the form of a dove. That doesn't mean the Spirit was a dove. But that was the form John saw. Likewise seeing Jesus was seeing the Father. Doesn't mean he was the Father. But that's who the disciples saw. The form of God is different from God himself. We're talking about forms and images.

But, again, you cannot simply dismiss the fact that Paul states Jesus was "in the form of God," then was "found in human form." Paul is talking about a mode of being. This is Paul's main point here. He is contrasting the two.

Jesus was like the Father, but he was not the Father. He came from the Father. Jesus was the God of Israel, but his power and authority came from the Father. Jesus said the Father is the true God and we have to worship him in spirit and truth. The Father is greater than all.

I have shown how this simply is not the case. Jesus certainly isn't the Father and I would also agree that Jesus was the God of Israel, however, the Father was also the God of Israel. It simply cannot be any other way. Hence why the doctrine of the Trinity best explains the nature of God.

As to the nature of the Son, Jesus rebuked the man who called him good saying, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." Mark 10:18

Rebuke? No. It was a rhetorical question. Indeed, Jesus didn't rebuke Thomas when he called him his Lord and his God. He also didn't rebuke his followers when they worshiped him, and the fact that they did worship him is significant enough (Mat 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 28,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). Peter certainly didn't accept such worship (Acts 10:25-26).

One could then argue that Jesus wasn't human either and now we know nothing about the nature of Jesus. But Paul's point is very clear here.

I think we should keep it in mind that when the Son of man returns He will take vengeance and he will spare no man. Doesn't sound like it will be a good day.

That doesn't address the point I made.

And one final point:

5. He "being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death." It was in his humility--"being found in human form"--that he submitted to the Father.

There is also more to be said if we get into the Greek. Regardless, Paul's point regarding humility is made only because we see the highest form of humility possible--God coming down and taking on human flesh. This passage shows precisely why Jesus can say "the Father is greater than I," even though he is equal with the Father.

Being in human form was humiliating? I don't know about that.

I don't know about that either. Humility and humiliating are two different words. There was humility in both his becoming human and in his obedience in going to the cross.

Let me say the Son humbled himself when he washed the disciples feet. Do you recall his sacrifice? He died for our sins.

It was the Son who came down to earth. It was the Son who suffered all the abuse. It was the Son who was crucified. It was not so much being human. It was letting himself be crucified by the Jews according to the will of the Father. It''s suffering all the abuse, not being believed, not judging, forgiving those who wanted to kill him. That was humbling. Paul tells us to have the same mind that was in Christ. He did not act out of selfishness but out of love. In obedience to the Father, he went to the cross. It's how he acted, his meekness. That is what Paul is trying to convey.

Yes, of course there is much to be said about his humility in regards to going to the cross, but the very force of Paul's argument is made by the fact that Jesus, as God, "emptied himself" and took on the form of a man in order to go to the cross. That is ultimate in humility--Creator become creature for the sake of redemption.

 

[Guest]

If he took "the form of a servant" and was "born in the likeness of men," what was his form before that, who was he like?

Is this a question, or do you know the answer.

 

[MarkT]

That would mean equality with God is not a thing to be held fast. Equality with God can not be held fast? That doesn't make sense.

I'm stretching to understand various meanings here. Not trying to say that I'm an expert in any way because I'm not. Regarding the "not to be held fast" concept it could mean that this is something that does not require effort or work to retain. My thought goes toward what we shall be. How we do not know what that is but are assured that we will be like Jesus. This, for me, is something that I do look forward to but is not something that I should steal or grasp at. What I find interesting is the Scripture that states something to the effect of "Heaven is taken by force." It gives tension and contrast that shows such depth regarding our instruction.

Returning the the first thought: when it is bestowed and all things are revealed and after we are shown as the finished work of God, having matured, these things that are done in us become completed works. We will be like Him for we see Him face to face? Could this scripture and all the various meanings behind the choice of that particular word convey multiple meanings? So that, in essence, we are also assured that what is given will not be taken by force -AND- will not need force to retain?

Just a thought, again: no expert but trying to understand is all.

Feel free to disagree as it isn't even a sure and certain thing in me for truly it is through a glass, darkly that we see. The fact remains: I have not attained. We are admonished to press in and to run the race with the understanding that with God's help, we shall cross that finish line.

Hi Sparrowhawke

In the light of Christ, meaning I know the Father is greater than Jesus, Jesus said so, I know the co-equal thing is false. There is no doubt in my mind. Nice to hear from you though.

 

[Brother Mike]

In the light of Christ, meaning I know the Father is greater than Jesus, Jesus said so, I know the co-equal thing is false.

I think Mark if Jesus is not equal with the Father, not being creator (Trinity Doctrine) Then not equal in what? Looking at Rev it seems He is pretty hooked up and in control. Being given in all things. Is it Jesus not being creator, is that what does not make Him equal? I know all the statements Jesus made, so definitly in the Mind of our Lord He is not equal, even before the time He came because the Father was the one that gave Him glory, not the other way around. His father even called him a servant.

I understand what your saying.

That was in Jesus mind though, what about our thinking about Him? To me He is Still God, on the Throne and given all things. I am thankful for the Father making everything, and Sending His son in these last days to speak to us, and saving us.

What is Jesus to us? I fully believe He is just as equal in authority having been given all authority and our Saviour.

If you believe the Creator (God the Father) came to die for us, then that is not Trinity, it's something else. That is 1 are 3, Not 3 are 1. That would not make Jesus equal or unequal. Because it's the same God with nothing else to compare. Same God, different personality.

Mike.

 

[By Grace]

I think

If you want to study the Bible, Here are some verses:

TRINITY
​

Plural Godhead, Genesis 1:26 (AB); 3:22 (AB).
Threefold benediction, Numbers 6:24–26.
Father, Son in Old Testament, Proverbs 30:2–4.
Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, Isaiah 6:3.
God, Holy Spirit, Isaiah 48:16.
Trinity in one verse, Matthew 28:19.
Oneness of Jesus and God, John 12:44–45; John 15:26–27.
Christ’s trinitarian teaching, John 14:25–31; John 15:26–27.
Trinitarian benediction, 2 Corinthians 13:14.
Christ, God and Holy Spirit, Ephesians 2:22.
Fullness of Deity, Colossians 2:9–10.
Spiritual function of Father and Son, 2 Thessalonians 3:5.
​

Start with these verses

 

[MarkT]

But it does, that's the whole point. Being God in nature, Jesus didn't consider his equality with God something that he should hold on to at all costs. This shows his willingness to become something less than God.

But it's not what Paul said. You can not substitute nature for form, or say equality with God is not a thing that can be held fast, and then turn it into 'not something that he should hold on to at all cost'. The KJV and the RSV both agree equality with God is not a thing to be grasped or taken or grabbed in a robbery sense. No one can take his power and authority. Only the Son has it and that is because the Father gave it to him. The fact is the Son humbled himself and became obedient unto death; an example of selflessness and obedience. Therefore God exalted him.

Again, we must not overlook the obvious, and that is verse 7:

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

That "but" is significant because it ties together "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" with "emptied himself." This is the same as saying "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but [instead] emptied himself." If Jesus was not equal with God, then this really makes no sense. What did he empty himself of then, if was not actually equal with God? If he took "the form of a servant" and was "born in the likeness of men," what was his form before that, who was he like?

He was the light in the form of God. John came for testimony to bear witness to the light. He was not the light but he came to bear witness to the light. John 1:7,8 God formed the light in his image. But being in the form of God and being God are two different things.

What Paul is saying is that even though he was in the form of God, he was not the true God nor did he count equality with the true God a thing to be grasped. It shows he did not think he was equal in that he became obedient to the Father. He emptied himself of everything he had with God, the power and the glory, even the knowledge of who he was until the time when he was found in human form. Incidentally that's what happens to us. We are found in human form.

Was he fully a man and that's it? If I say that Jesus was God am I actually dismissing "what he said about himself with respect to the Father"? Your position is contradictory. You cannot rationally hold to a position which states that Jesus is only a man and that we cannot say he is God, and yet states that he is God, much less the God of Israel but not the one true God.

Jesus said the Father is greater than I, and you say they are co-equal. I follow the Lord and only Him.

Yes, of course there is much to be said about his humility in regards to going to the cross, but the very force of Paul's argument is made by the fact that Jesus, as God, "emptied himself" and took on the form of a man in order to go to the cross. That is ultimate in humility--Creator become creature for the sake of redemption.

The Father didn't exalt the Son because he emptied himself. The Father exalted the Son because he did the Father's will.

 

[By Grace]

@By Grace What exactly is polytheismism or whatever. I have no idea what it is. So teach me.

For the SECOND TIME

 

[Guest]

@By Grace What exactly is polytheismism or whatever. I have no idea what it is. So teach me.

For the SECOND TIME

I have my own religion. It's called lovetheism. :toofunny

 

[MarkT]

In the light of Christ, meaning I know the Father is greater than Jesus, Jesus said so, I know the co-equal thing is false.

I think Mark if Jesus is not equal with the Father, not being creator (Trinity Doctrine) Then not equal in what? Looking at Rev it seems He is pretty hooked up and in control. Being given in all things. Is it Jesus not being creator, is that what does not make Him equal? I know all the statements Jesus made, so definitly in the Mind of our Lord He is not equal, even before the time He came because the Father was the one that gave Him glory, not the other way around. His father even called him a servant.

I understand what your saying.

That was in Jesus mind though, what about our thinking about Him? To me He is Still God, on the Throne and given all things. I am thankful for the Father making everything, and Sending His son in these last days to speak to us, and saving us.

What is Jesus to us? I fully believe He is just as equal in authority having been given all authority and our Saviour.

If you believe the Creator (God the Father) came to die for us, then that is not Trinity, it's something else. That is 1 are 3, Not 3 are 1. That would not make Jesus equal or unequal. Because it's the same God with nothing else to compare. Same God, different personality.

Mike.

Look at the context when Jesus said it. Like no one can snatch them from his hand. So the Father is greater in power and authority. Ask yourself, would you eat something that did not come from Jesus? All words are not equal. His words are food for the spiritual body, good food. His words are life. There is good food and bad food. Ask yourselves if 'co-equal' is good food?

 

[Brother Mike]

If you want to study the Bible, Here are some verses:

I had a long post in another attempt to explain things to you. At this time I feel you may need some more growth and time to gather together what you actually believe. I personally do not get involved in debates, or conversations that I have not been equipped to get involved in. I take a listen and ask question approach instead. I may feel the persons are not correct but then again it is just something I feel and do not have the facts to prove. I also believe it is me that might need to be taught. I deleted my post as I don't believe your in listen or learn mod, but I know everything mod.

An example..........

Threefold benediction, Numbers 6:24–26.

This is a Possible Catholic/Baptist Doctrine. I don not believe you are Catholic as you have given no indication of it. I do believe as Modilist does you grab parts of this or that to make the model doctrine you attempt to prove. I don't feel as if you have this as a revelation or have even looked into it until now.

The Lord Bless thee. The Lord keep thee.
The Lord shine his face on thee. The Lord bless thee.
The Lord lift his countenance on thee. The Lord give thee peace.
The Lord put his name on the Children. The Lord bless your children.

Right now as one would read the Hebrew it is the Lord that performs each Blessing. Each Blessing is different than the other blessings.
So this is a 8 part blessing, not a three fold benediction. Benediction is Latin meaning blessing or divine help.

Christ’s trinitarian teaching, John 14:25–31; John 15:26–27.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

How you come up with this is beyond me. If I was defending Trinity, I would not point any where near this scripture.

Trinity in one verse, Matthew 28:19.

Those that refute Trinity do not deny there is the Holy Spirit, Do not deny the Son of God, or the Father. Finding them all in one verse is not the best way to try to prove the Trinity.

Go read my post on defending the Trinity.

Mike.

There is good food and bad food. Ask yourselves if 'co-equal' is good food?

Hold to your guns then Brother!!!! I understand the Scriptures say what the Scriptures say. Jesus Made no comments about be Equal with His father. It was even HIS FATHERS House and not his house, removing any theory about this ONE GOD business. One God, One House, His House.

 

[By Grace]

I had a long post in another attempt to explain things to you.

I really do not care.

I posted things from many learned people as well as Scriptures. If you do not care to engage the stuff that they say, and prefer to go on with your own, faulty understanding of things, that is up to you.

The reason that they were posted is because they show the depth of knowledge of many well-learned and highly educated Christians; I do not suspect that you can hold any academic candle of achievement or years of world-recognized education to these folk I cited. So if you wish to dismiss all this in favor of your own "understanding" that is your choice.

 

[Brother Mike]

The reason that they were posted is because they show the depth of knowledge of many well-learned and highly educated Christians; I do not suspect that you can hold any academic candle of achievement or years of world-recognized education to these folk I cited. So if you wish to dismiss all this in favor of your own "understanding" that is your choice.

I am discussing these things with you, not all those other "High level" people. What you believe is important and what "you" can show in the Word. It's not much good to you if you can't explain what they have found, but I counted 8 blessings not 3........Each one is from the Lord. I don't take any mans level of understanding and just call it so, for we need no man teach us but the Holy Ghost teach us all things. I'll stick with the Holy Spirit, and I'll stick to what I learned about counting.

There is nothing there that proves a Trinity. Yet you gave me those scriptures without checking them. You even gave me the one Jesus said my Father is greater than I with no explanation, but I doubt you even doubled checked that.

I don't want to come to the forums and discuss what "others" believed, I came to discuss things with people actually on the forum. You did not even check those scriptures, because I certainly would not given them defending the Trinity Creed.

Now if your in a position to defend all those, then say so. If not, then why all the concern. It's what you can prove, that is important.

So, How is Jesus saying the Father is Greater than I, Help your position?

If you can't answer this, then we both know who is pulling who's leg here. Answer the Question, How does giving me that scripture Help your position?

Mike.

 

[WIP]

Let's stick to discussing scripture and avoid making it personal please.

 

[By Grace]

So, How is Jesus saying the Father is Greater than I, Help your position?

That is easy...... PLEASE LOOK AT THE CONTEXT

This was said in the Upper Room Discourse, the Last Supper of Jesus, and was a Passover Seder.. Jesus is takling about subservience, and He is speaking as a human here.
the facts remain that God the Father is the Architect of the Plan of Salvation, and Jesus is the mediator of that salvation. Jesus ALWAYS says that the words He speaks are from the Father, and not of His own

“Why are you so polite with me, always saying ‘Yes, sir,’ and ‘That’s right, sir,’ but never doing a thing I tell you? These words I speak to you are not mere additions to your life, homeowner improvements to your standard of living. They are foundation words, words to build a life on.
​

Peterson, E. H. (2005). The Message: The Bible in contemporary language (Lk 6:46–47). Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress.

Here are other versions of that verse:

Matthew 7:24-25

Amplified Bible (AMP)

24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [a]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.




Matthew 7:24-25

English Standard Version (ESV)

Build Your House on the Rock

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

 

[Brother Mike]

Ok, I am not sure how those verses help. You left out your explanation.

Jesus only Spoke what He heard His father Speak.
Anyone that hears these Words that came from Jesus are like those that built their house on the Rock.
These Words Jesus had gotten from the Father give life.

I understand your position. The Words Jesus had gotten from the Father are life, they are the rock.

Joh_12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


Jesus saying My father is greater than I.
and the scripture you gave, how does this prove or disprove a trinity doctrine?

In fact, the whole thread is Jesus Fully God praying? We all have gone way off course for 27 pages.

We know that Thomas Said "My God" to Jesus and Jesus did not correct him. That alone should answer the thread topic I think. John Called Jesus the true God. The Father God called his Son God.

So How then since we got off topic does the verses you give prove or disprove a trinity Doctrine?

Jesus is God, the Father is God. That is 2 Gods, or 2 in One God.

Mike.

 

[Randy]

I believe the Father is in the Son as Jesus taught. The One True God (The Father) came down to us "through" the Son. Jesus has always been the Son. As far as scripture shows the Father has always been in the Son. Jesus is the Firstborn of ALL creation. Jesus is the One and Only Son at the Fathers side who is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being.

Is Jesus God?

He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is. Why? Because the Father is in Him without limit. The Fullness of the Diety was pleased to dwell in Him. Whose mind do you think was pleased to do that? I think its self evident that answer would be the The One Jesus calls HIS God and Our God. His Father and Our Father.

No, Jesus has always been the Son.

Jesus was given a place on HIS Fathers throne forever.

But the One who gave Jesus that authority is greater as Jesus taught. Jesus uses "truth"

Randy

 

[Brother Mike]

I believe the Father is in the Son as Jesus taught. The One True God (The Father) came down to us "through" the Son. Jesus has always been the Son.

Thank you Randy for Sharing. That has been part of the issue with this thread. What you just said is not the Trinity Doctrine. Some who question the Trinity Doctrine are under the assumption the rest of the people that believe in monotheism (One GOD) are trinitarian, when in fact they are not. Your not Trinitarian but something else, so we go into these conversations already preconceiving what each believe and it just makes it that much harder to discuss these things.

Blessings Brother.

Mike.