Is Jesus God Almighty, Everlasting Father?

[Michael A Disciple]

Living 4 Jesus said:

John 1:1 explains it all.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus is the Word. He is both w/ God, and is God.

Me:

I agree 100%

 

[Vic C.]

You said:

Jesus is God, the Son.

Oook, but what about the rest of what I said...

" Using your logic, Jesus must declare He is His own Father... and He prays to Himself... and He speaks to Himself from Heaven... and He talks to Himself while on Earth..."

Ok if he is God the Son we know for sure scripture also says he is the Everlasting Father.

Scripture does not say that. It says He is called everlasting Father, not he is the everlasting Father.
http://www.carm.org/oneness/Father.htm


http://www.unionchurch.com/archive/121601.html

It is easy to get sidetracked when we talk about Jesus as the "everlasting father". How can the Son be the Father? As soon as you ask that question you step into the minefield that we like to call the doctrine of the Trinity. Scripture affirms that there is one God who is manifest in three distinct and separate "persons" or personalities: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But they are all one God!

Jesus is not called Everlasting Father because there is confusion about the nature of God the Father and God the Son. Jesus is called the everlasting Father because of His father-like qualities. He is still God the Son, but His love and grace is like that of a Father with his children.

 

[living4onlyJC]

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Vic C.]

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I guess I'm the minority here. Mostly everyone wants to read that verse with preconceived ideas instead of taking it for what it says. :-?

Oh well, I will bow out because as long as we are "stuck" on this verse, we will get nowhere. To muddy up the waters even more, there are some Bible scholars who believe this isn't even a Messianic prophet passage. :-?

 

[wavy]

I guess I'm the minority here. Mostly everyone wants to read that verse with preconceived ideas instead of taking it for what it says. :-?

not alone, Vic.iI actually read that CARM link and am also a member of that site.

i agree, but there is also another good explanation:

"Ki yelled yulad lanu ben netan lanu va tehe hamisrah al shichmoh va yiqra shemo pele yoetz el gibor avai ad sar shalom"

literally, "child born to us, son given to us and the government will be, and he will be called wonderful counselor, mighty-el, father of everlasting, prince of peace".

an attribute. not that he is the Father who is above all. if yahshua is the Father, he called himself greater than himself.

 

[living4onlyJC]

To muddy up the waters even more, there are some Bible scholars who believe this isn't even a Messianic prophet passage. :-?

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed....

 

[wavy]

To muddy up the waters even more, there are some Bible scholars who believe this isn't even a Messianic prophet passage. :-?

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed....

Well, that is irrelevant to his point (no offense). But anyway, I disagree with those scholars for many reasons. Some believe it refers to righteous king Hezekiah. He died, however.

Not very "eternal", so to speak...

 

[Vic C.]

... But anyway, I disagree with those scholars for many reasons. Some believe it refers to righteous king Hezekiah. He died, however.

Not very "eternal", so to speak...

I didn't say I agree with them either. I just had to throw it in though. It goes to show the extent some will go to disprove Jesus as Messiah.

 

[Free]

16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim. 3:16

Trinitarianism fails to see what is written.

Not God the Son was manifest in flesh. Not a "second person of God" manifest in flesh.

It simply says "GOD" was manifest in flesh.

That verse neither proves nor disproves trinitarianism so there is nothing to fail to see. It is simply a statement about the incarnation and as such is against Arianism and Adoptionism.

Jesus is the Word. He is both w/ God, and is God.

Me:

I agree 100%

This is a very trinitarian verse. Why would John state the obvious that Jesus was with himself? Here John is clearly distinguishing between the Son and the Father (and Holy Spirit).

So then he is both God the Everlasting Father and God the Son.

Both the Father and the Son.

Please tell me how one being can be the Father of himself or the Son of himself. You will notice that throughout the entire NT the writers consistently and continually distinguish between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, something which is useless and pointless if Jesus is God and that is it.

Trinitarians assume mistakenly that "God" means someone other than the one God.

Not at all. Trinitarianism always has had at its foundation monotheism. If you can't see that, then you really don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

It is easier to understand God manifesting himself in different ways than it is to accept the existence of more than one being who is God.

It might be easier, but that doesn't make it more correct or even correct at all. Not only that, if Jesus is a mere manifestation of God, then there is no salvation. As you can see there are some very serious philosophical and theological problems that arise if the Son is a mere manifestation of the Father.

 

[Klee shay]

I believe it's enough to see them as separate beings united in love. Anything more and the devil starts tempting us again that we can be greater than the mystery of God. The terms "Son" and "Father" were used specifically for endearment, respect and love between two individuals. Something mankind could relate to from the birth of Adam and Eve's first children.

God is the father above all but in creating us we are part of the same design. He created Jesus from spiritual and physical conception - so too are we. The only thing which unites us is the love of God that breathed life into all. In that we are connected as one. Does that make us all God however?

It will one day - but not on this level of understanding.

When we understand them as they were written - a "Father" and a "Son" united in love, respect and trust; we understand the relationship as God would have us understand it. That is how the scriptures were written after all. God does not talk in double-talk. That is the enemy's forte.

If God described Jesus as "His SON" Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my bloved Son, in whom I am well pleased," do we trust the word of God as it stands, or do we try to second guess it?

 

[thessalonian]

:

Ah the trinity debate. Round and round we go. Everyone playing exegist and scholar. Everyone says the other is ignoring verses. Protestant unity at it's best. By what authority I ask?

 

[wavy]

what authority do you have?

 

[cj]

One, one, one, or 1x1x1=1. Trinitarians do not believe nor teach polytheism.

Not knowingly at least. But according to the principle that Jesus told us of when He said to some folk that they didn't know what they were speaking, many believers speak about the triune nature of God in a manner that suggest to another that God is three persons.

PotLuck said it best: "The trinity is next to impossible to explain,".

And God is next to impossible to see. Perhaps there is a connection between the two.

Oh, it's there in Scripture alright, we recongize it but it's beyond our comprehension.

Absolutely right, it is in the scriptures, but I'm not so sure many of the "we" recognize it, and so many are unable to understand it.

How can you recognize God if you don't see God?

By producing a formula for God; YxUxOxLxZ=God?

This is the same as trying to understand God through theological doctrines, and its silliness.

Why rely on man's doctrines when God is see-able?

Scripture declares to us how we come to understand God, through revelation, meaning, through God Himself revealing Himself to us.

And therein lies the answer to the question of the triune nature of God.

To comprehend God's triune nature one must see God, as seeing God is seeing the triune nature of God.

When a person sees God this person sees the Father's will, the Spirit's move, and the Son's expression, all at the same time.

The triune nature of God is for His economy regarding His creation, or in other words, God deals with/relates to His creation in and through a triune nature,... the Father is the source of all divine dealing with/relateing to His creation, the Spirit is the action regarding all divine dealing with/relateing to His creation, and the Son is the expression of all dealing with/relateing to His creation.

It's like gravity; we know it exists; we see it's effects all day and night, but we can't quite explain it.

This is a wonderful, sort of comparison, inthat,......... gravity is just a realiy of our life.

You can try to explain it, try to study it, even try to use it, but none of these even begin to come close to our actual experience of it.

The same can be said about God.

See, God is life, and life fully experienced is the most perfect way to fully comprehend what life is.

And in this we find wha we need in order to come to fully comprehend God; we need to fully experience Him.

Fact is, God has given Himself to us for our full experience,.... and enjoyment,... of Him.

Jesus said "I have come that they may have life (zoe life, divine life, eternal life) and may have it abundantly."

(On a side note, one of the most interesting and enlightening bible studies a believer can do is on the word life; and just stick to Matt., Mark, Luke, & John, as these books overflow with spiritual food regarding life.)

The fact is, the bible is first and foremost a book on the matter of life.

You want life, read the bible.

At the beginning of the bible we see where Adam lost the way to life, and at the end of the bible we see where God has brought men back into life.

The bible is a book of life, and thus should be read in this light.

When one picks up the bible to read it one should not do so to formulate doctrines, or teachings, or traditions,.... and worse, theology.

Instead, when one picks up the bible to read it the only thought should be "I WANT LIFE FROM THIS BOOK,.... AND I WANT IT ABUNDANTLY."


Do this and you will come to comprehend the triune nature of God, and even more, you will personally come to personally experience the triune nature of God. For life is simply the will/flowing/expression of God regarding His creation.

And when a person possesses this will/flowing/expression of God this person simply knows God in all His fullness and glory.

To know God we need to possess God.


In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

what authority do you have?

That's helpful. Where I am claiming any?

 

[Heidi]

One, one, one, or 1x1x1=1. Trinitarians do not believe nor teach polytheism.

Not knowingly at least. But according to the principle that Jesus told us of when He said to some folk that they didn't know what they were speaking, many believers speak about the triune nature of God in a manner that suggest to another that God is three persons.

PotLuck said it best: "The trinity is next to impossible to explain,".

And God is next to impossible to see. Perhaps there is a connection between the two.

Oh, it's there in Scripture alright, we recongize it but it's beyond our comprehension.

Absolutely right, it is in the scriptures, but I'm not so sure many of the "we" recognize it, and so many are unable to understand it.

How can you recognize God if you don't see God?

By producing a formula for God; YxUxOxLxZ=God?

This is the same as trying to understand God through theological doctrines, and its silliness.

Why rely on man's doctrines when God is see-able?

Scripture declares to us how we come to understand God, through revelation, meaning, through God Himself revealing Himself to us.

And therein lies the answer to the question of the triune nature of God.

To comprehend God's triune nature one must see God, as seeing God is seeing the triune nature of God.

When a person sees God this person sees the Father's will, the Spirit's move, and the Son's expression, all at the same time.

The triune nature of God is for His economy regarding His creation, or in other words, God deals with/relates to His creation in and through a triune nature,... the Father is the source of all divine dealing with/relateing to His creation, the Spirit is the action regarding all divine dealing with/relateing to His creation, and the Son is the expression of all dealing with/relateing to His creation.

It's like gravity; we know it exists; we see it's effects all day and night, but we can't quite explain it.

This is a wonderful, sort of comparison, inthat,......... gravity is just a realiy of our life.

You can try to explain it, try to study it, even try to use it, but none of these even begin to come close to our actual experience of it.

The same can be said about God.

See, God is life, and life fully experienced is the most perfect way to fully comprehend what life is.

And in this we find wha we need in order to come to fully comprehend God; we need to fully experience Him.

Fact is, God has given Himself to us for our full experience,.... and enjoyment,... of Him.

Jesus said "I have come that they may have life (zoe life, divine life, eternal life) and may have it abundantly."

(On a side note, one of the most interesting and enlightening bible studies a believer can do is on the word life; and just stick to Matt., Mark, Luke, & John, as these books overflow with spiritual food regarding life.)

The fact is, the bible is first and foremost a book on the matter of life.

You want life, read the bible.

At the beginning of the bible we see where Adam lost the way to life, and at the end of the bible we see where God has brought men back into life.

The bible is a book of life, and thus should be read in this light.

When one picks up the bible to read it one should not do so to formulate doctrines, or teachings, or traditions,.... and worse, theology.

Instead, when one picks up the bible to read it the only thought should be "I WANT LIFE FROM THIS BOOK,.... AND I WANT IT ABUNDANTLY."


Do this and you will come to comprehend the triune nature of God, and even more, you will personally come to personally experience the triune nature of God. For life is simply the will/flowing/expression of God regarding His creation.

And when a person possesses this will/flowing/expression of God this person simply knows God in all His fullness and glory.

To know God we need to possess God.


In love,
cj

Sorry, Cj, but above all, the bible is the truth because it is the word of God. It is the revelation of God's will to his chosen people. John 1:1-3 tells us that the bible is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. You either believe the bible or you make up your own teachings instead. If you want to read about life, all novels illustrate what life is about and so do soap operas.

 

[Vic C.]

:

Ah the trinity debate. Round and round we go. Everyone playing exegist and scholar. Everyone says the other is ignoring verses. Protestant unity at it's best. By what authority I ask?

Thess, you are RC, no? I would think we are on the same page concerning the Trinity. Could you point out what we believe differently than the RCC. If James is here, I'd love to hear what he has to say also.

I ask sincerely.

 

[Vic C.]

Instead, when one picks up the bible to read it the only thought should be "I WANT LIFE FROM THIS BOOK,.... AND I WANT IT ABUNDANTLY."

cj, those born again or born from above believers in John ch. 3 are given that promise. Once I was "saved" I asked for this:

"I WANT TRUTH FROM THIS BOOK,.... AND I WANT IT ABUNDANTLY."

 

[thessalonian]

:

Ah the trinity debate. Round and round we go. Everyone playing exegist and scholar. Everyone says the other is ignoring verses. Protestant unity at it's best. By what authority I ask?

Thess, you are RC, no? I would think we are on the same page concerning the Trinity. Could you point out what we believe differently than the RCC. If James is here, I'd love to hear what he has to say also.

I ask sincerely.

Sure. Within Protestantism in genral most probably would not get to this lever, simply stating three persons in one God. But I have run in to some variety in nuances of the doctrine of the trinity ranging from what is known as nestorianism which says that Jesus was two persons, (catholic and Orthodox theology say Jesus has two natures but is on,e divine person), one human and one divine, to monophysitism which says that Jesus had only one divine nature (catholic and orthodox say he has two natures in one person). There is also the sudtlety of monothelitism which deals with whether Christ had one or two wills.

There are probably other camps. But for the average protestant he would likely agree with Catholic theology regarding the trinity (which is actually where it came from and not directly from the bible, as it is nowhere explicitly stated in scripture but is implicit, this of course would be a disagreement between some protestants and Catholics/Orthodox as well)

The Orthodox of course disagree regarding the filloque, whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the father and the son (catholic) or just the father. But as to the nature and will spoken of above I think they would be in agreement with us. OC can clarify.


Apparently there is Apollianarianism, a sudtly different view from the above views that says that Christ's divine nature overtook and replaced his human one. I've not run in to any who outright state this anywhere so I don't know if any Protestants believe it or not.

Imigican appears to be in the Arianist camp of which I have known some "protestants". Basically denying the divinity of Christ.

Some articles:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10502a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10489b.htm
http://religion-cults.com/heresies/fifth.htm

 

[cj]

Instead, when one picks up the bible to read it the only thought should be "I WANT LIFE FROM THIS BOOK,.... AND I WANT IT ABUNDANTLY."

cj, those born again or born from above believers in John ch. 3 are given that promise. Once I was "saved" I asked for this:

"I WANT TRUTH FROM THIS BOOK,.... AND I WANT IT ABUNDANTLY."

That's wonderful Vic, but maybe you knew not what you asked for, 'cause God gives life, which is simply truth expressed, which is simply God expressed.

See, life is not a one-time experience, life is an ongoing experience, an eternal experience.

2 Corinthians 4:16, "Therefore we do not lose heart; but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day."

Colossians 3:10, "And have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who ecreated him,"

Being born-again is a matter of being put in the proper position in relationship to God,... and receiving the seed of life that will eventually grow to full maturity.

But the source of life, the measurable reservoir, is the Father, and it is out of the Father as the source that life flows new everyday. Scripture even says that though God is ancient, He is also new. And we need to receive from His newness everyday.

So yes, on the one hand we receive life at rebirth, but on the other hand we must continually receive life daily.

Now concerning the matter of truth,..... truth is just a righteous God expressed.

1 John, "And this is the message which we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all."

And how does this relate to "truth"?

1 John  1 : 6, "If we say that we have fellowship with Him (light) and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and are not practicing.... the truth;

The Greek word used by John (a very particular word used by him) translated "truth" means reality (the opposite of vanity), verity, veracity, genuineness, sincerity. It is John's highly individual terminology, and it is one of the profound words in the New Testament, denoting all the realities of the divine economy as the content of the divine revelation, conveyed and disclosed by the holy Word as follows:

(1) God, who is light and love, incarnated to be the reality of the divine things, such as the divine life, the divine nature, the divine power, and the divine glory, for us to possess, that we may enjoy Him as grace, as revealed in John's Gospel (John 1:1, 4, 14-17).

(2) Christ, who is God incarnated and in whom all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily (Col. 2:9), as the reality of (a) God and man (John 1:18, 51; 1 Tim. 2:5); (b) all the types, figures, and shadows of the Old Testament (Col. 2:16-17; John 4:23, 24, and notes); and (c) all the divine and spiritual things, such as the divine life and resurrection (John 11:25; 14:6), the divine light (John 8:12; 9:5), the divine way (John 14:6), wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption (1 Cor. 1:30). Hence, Christ is the reality (John 14:6; Eph. 4:21).

John  1 : 4, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Since John, v. 3, refers to the creation in Gen. 1, life here should refer to the life signified by the tree of life in Gen. 2. This is confirmed by the fact that in Rev. 22 John mentions the tree of life. Since life is in Him, He is life (11:25; 14:6), and He came that man might have life (10:10). The introduction to this Gospel is composed of this entire chapter; it begins with life (v. 4) and ends with building (vv. 42, 51), that is, with the house of God. Hence, it is an introduction to life and building.

John 6:48, "I am the bread of life."

John 7:29, "I know Him, because I am from Him, and He sent Me."

John 8:12, "Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall by no means walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

John  11 : 25, "Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if he should die, shall live;"

John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."


Fact is Vic,.... when you asked for "truth" from the word of God you in reality asked for life.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Sorry, Cj, but above all, the bible is the truth because it is the word of God. It is the revelation of God's will to his chosen people. John 1:1-3 tells us that the bible is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. You either believe the bible or you make up your own teachings instead. If you want to read about life, all novels illustrate what life is about and so do soap operas.

I have no idea what your point is Heidi.

And as for your last statement, its simply exposes immaturity.


Christ declared Himself to be life, therefore, if you are a Christ seeker, you by extension are a life-seeker.

And last I heard, the bible was a great place to seek Christ.


In love,
cj