Is Jesus really God ?

[zionwarrior]

if theo means divinity and the lord having a nature, doesnt that kinda mean that he is god?

if an angel then that breaks the first commandment.

God in isiah said that he wont share his glory

also in revalation 1 the lord claims to be the First and the Last and in isiah the YHWH says the same.

how can that be?

Divine Gift !!! Not Divinity !!!

 

[Free]

So who is the passage in Proverbs speaking of ?

It is presumptuous to think that it is speaking of someone. It is the personification of wisdom and need not be speaking of anyone.

 

[jasoncran]

Divine Gift !!! Not Divinity !!!

so God shares his glory?

please reconcile this and this greek to kjv

john 1:1

and this is the word for God

θεός
God


now then show me if that is in err.

 

[zionwarrior]

Well excuse me for being presumptuous ... For failing to observe the limits of what is permitted or appropriate by you.

 

[zionwarrior]

so God shares his glory?

please reconcile this and this greek to kjv

john 1:1

and this is the word for God

θεός
God


now then show me if that is in err.

Obviously a Divine Gift is a gift from God:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

And obviously you dont get it so I will repeat myself no more.

 

[jasoncran]

Obviously a Divine Gift is a gift from God:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

irrevalant, that doenst mean what you claim

can we worship jesus or not?if he isnt god then please reconcile that verse god says beside me there is no other and i wont share my glory with another.

yet jesus was worshipped.

 

[Free]

Well excuse me for being presumptuous ... For failing to observe the limits of what is permitted or appropriate by you.

Wow. This sort of retort after previously stating "Chill ladies, no need to get your knickers all up in a bunch ...". I really don't know what to think. You don't like the discussion here because it isn't "structured," yet it is apparent that you are unable to debate according to any sort of debating principles, as was stated previously.

My clear point was that your theology is interpreting a passage to mean something that it most likely doesn't mean. I fail to see how one can take such an argument so personally.

 

[zionwarrior]

The Hebrews used the words for worship, not only as respects
worshiping the only true God, but also as showing homage to a king, a
ruler, or any person to whom respect was being given. Most
translations show this difference in the Old Testament by rendering
the words for "worship" with words such as "bow down", "bowed before",
etc., when the words for worship are being used respecting rulers,
dignitaries, showing respect, etc.

 

[jasoncran]

The Hebrews used the words for worship, not only as respects
worshiping the only true God, but also as showing homage to a king, a
ruler, or any person to whom respect was being given. Most
translations show this difference in the Old Testament by rendering
the words for "worship" with words such as "bow down", "bowed before",
etc., when the words for worship are being used respecting rulers,
dignitaries, showing respect, etc.

so wow, i guess when john fell at his feet at the presence of the GLORY of the son he wasnt worshipping

yet he did the EXACT same thing with the angels and they commanded him get thee up for i am a fellow serveant.



angels do have a glory but the Glory from the father.

your digging a hole.

look i come from an anti-trinitarian background , in fact i was raised a jw.

god told me that he was a trinity and i just believed it, i dont understand it fully,

but that is the nature of many things of god

do we understand his workings when he calls men to repent and also everlasting calvin/armanian debates?

nope.

 

[zionwarrior]

Wow. This sort of retort after previously stating "Chill ladies, no need to get your knickers all up in a bunch ...". I really don't know what to think. You don't like the discussion here because it isn't "structured," yet it is apparent that you are unable to debate according to any sort of debating principles, as was stated previously.

My clear point was that your theology is interpreting a passage to mean something that it most likely doesn't mean. I fail to see how one can take such an argument so personally.

Well, you continued to challenge me so I took up your challenge ( against my better judgement ) Obviously you don't like my version of it all and continue to discount my views and seem to think you represent the majority of Christianity.

A person can only bash their head on a brick wall for so long before he gets a headache ...

 

[Free]

Well, you continued to challenge me so I took up your challenge ( against my better judgement ) Obviously you don't like my version of it all and continue to discount my views and seem to think you represent the majority of Christianity.

A person can only bash their head on a brick wall for so long before he gets a headache ...

:

You made a point and I countered. That is all. That is how debates work. I fail to see how your not liking my response is akin to someone bashing their head against a brick wall. I have shown the flaws in several of your arguments and am not merely discounting your views.

What do you mean by " don't like [your] version of it all"? The deity of Jesus?

 

[savedbygrace57]

more on Mighty God is God !

Whats the conclusion in Isa 10 :21 ? Is it the same words ?

Jesus Christ is the Mighty God, the same one as in deut 10:


17For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The same as Neh 9:

32Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day.

The same as Jer 32:

18Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,

 

[zionwarrior]

:

You made a point and I countered. That is all. That is how debates work. I fail to see how your not liking my response is akin to someone bashing their head against a brick wall. I have shown the flaws in several of your arguments and am not merely discounting your views.

What do you mean by " don't like [your] version of it all"? The deity of Jesus?

Ah yes, you made your counter by calling me presumptuous ...
Your flaws are not my flaws ...

 

[Drew]

1 Corinthians 1:24

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Here Jesus is described as 'The Wisdom of God'.

Listen therefore to Wisdom herself, constituted in the character of a second Person. "At first the Lord created me as the beginning of his ways, with a view to his own works. Before he made the earth, before the mountains were settled, moreover, before all the hills did he beget me."

And here we see God creating the wisdom of God. (Jesus)

Some will put the following argument A forward:​

1. Jesus is characterized as the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1);​

2. God created wisdom (Proverbs 8);​

3. Therefore, God created Jesus and therefore cannot be God.​

Consider the following hypothetical situation: a certain man invents the ship anchor. He then writes this in a letter to his friend. "My wife is my anchor". Using your line of reasoning we could argue as follows:

1. The wife is characterized as being an anchor;

2. The man (husband) created the anchor;​

3. Therefore, the man created the wife.​

I trust the error is clear. Note how in the second example, the term “anchor” is being used in a specifically metaphorical sense – the husband is never intending to suggest that this wife is literally the anchor he invented. This is why A fails – it gains its apparent force by conflating the distinction between wisdom as a “thing” and its use in a metaphorical sense. If Paul had written something like this in 1 Corinthians: “Jesus is to be understood as literally identical to this thing “wisdom” that God has invented”, then A might be a valid counterargument to the divinity of Jesus.

But, I suspect it is self-evident that Paul is speaking in a metaphorical sense when he writes this:

…..Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

Again, if you are really interested in a serious, fair debate, why do you continue to entirely ignore the following posts: 121, 122, 140, 144.

I am actually interested in knowing how you rationalize to yourself the fact that you simply choose to ignore counter-arguments that challenge your position. We, of course, are not following the same pattern - we are actually engaging your arguments.

 

[Free]

Ah yes, you made your counter by calling me presumptuous ...
Your flaws are not my flaws ...

You first stated: "And here we see God creating the wisdom of God. (Jesus)"

I replied: "That Jesus is called the "wisdom of God" in 1 Cor, in no way whatsoever means that the passage in Prov is speaking of the creation of Christ. "

You then stated: "So who is the passage in Proverbs speaking of ?"

To which I said that you were being presumptuous, that is, you were supposing that it was about someone, when it may not be. I backed that up by stating just that: "It is the personification of wisdom and need not be speaking of anyone." That is my argument--it may be speaking of someone but it may not. You really shouldn't take things so personally.

From merriam-webster.com:
Definition of PRESUME

transitive verb
1
: to undertake without leave or clear justification : dare

2
: to expect or assume especially with confidence

3
: to suppose to be true without proof <presumed innocent until proved guilty>

4
: to take for granted : imply



intransitive verb
1
: to act or proceed presumptuously or on a presumption

2
: to go beyond what is right or proper

 

[savedbygrace57]

And these Three are One !

Along with this Thread of Proving the Deity of Christ, that He is in His Divine Being, Jehovah God, I will also show some scriptures that give evidence of the Plurality of God Elohim, The Triunity of Him to be exact.

and these three are one !



1 jn 5:


7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


This scripture is hated so much, that its opposer's has decided to rip it out of the pages of the scriptures !

But this affirmation is only one of several testimonies of the Plurality of the One God, namely the Trinity..

Its no argument that God is One, for its clearly taught throughout scripture revelation, and I confess that He is One God as I see scriptures like :

Ex 20:

1And God spake all these words, saying,


2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Moses declares : deut 6:

4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Hear God's Testimony by the prophet Isa 44:

8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Again Isa 45:

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 46:

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

New Testament testimony : Mk 12:

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Paul's witness 1 cor 8:

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now that I have established what I believe as God being One, I will establish that He is One in Plurality, for to believe in the True One God, we must believe all of what the scripture reveals of Him. That God exist as Three is written all over scripture as that He is One ..

First, That He has revealed Himself in Plurality, The very First Name by which God declared His Person as per Gen 1:

Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. In the original,
God is in the Plural, Elohim. Elohim is the Plural of the word:

'elowahh :God


I believe this is crucial, for Moses could have very well used this word alone to point out that God was a singular Entity..

Yes, Moses would have believed that Elohim was a God of Plurality, if indeed He believed His own inspired writings..

In this instance, the Plural Noun is connected with a singular verb, yet there are exceptions to this, thus making manifest that this plurality of God exists in Unity.

Lets look on down in vs 26 of the same chapter we read:

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

and then vs 27 states:

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Again God is being presented both in plurality and Unity ! Gen 3:

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Many deny this scripture and in self will change this to mean angels as one of us..

Gen 11:

7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Isa the prophet says:

Isa 6:

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord [Adonay], saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Again, the presentation of Unity and Plurality in view; In dan 4:

17This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

These Holy Ones and Watchers cannot be Angels, for its not their place to decree among the affairs of Kings and Men..

That these watchers were God, is seen by that decree, which was the decree of the Most High as seen in the verse, as well as dan 4:

24This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:

Again, the Plurality and Unity of the Most High Jehovah God..

 

[zionwarrior]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

In verse 7, the phrases “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:†and “and these three are one†have both been added by the translators, as was the phrase “And there are three that bear witness.†in verse 8. This was a blatant attempt by the Bishop of London, the supervisor of the translation project under King James, to inject the human based tradition of the Trinity into biblical text. No words that can be translated into these added phrases could be found in the original text. It is a fraud. The words are not found in any of the oldest, and most reliable manuscripts, nor in any of the ancient translations.

 

[Drew]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

In verse 7, the phrases “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:†and “and these three are one†have both been added by the translators, as was the phrase “And there are three that bear witness.†in verse 8. This was a blatant attempt by the Bishop of London, the supervisor of the translation project under King James, to inject the human based tradition of the Trinity into biblical text. No words that can be translated into these added phrases could be found in the original text. It is a fraud. The words are not found in any of the oldest, and most reliable manuscripts, nor in any of the ancient translations.

Unless you respond to arguments that you have been repeatedly reminded about, I will no longer interact with you.

 

[savedbygrace57]

We Know Jesus Christ is God by John writes again !



We Know Jesus Christ is God by John writes again in rev 5:

11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Now what more can be ascribed to God ??

And if this be not Supreme Worship, what is ?

 

[Asyncritus]

Let's be clear - If this debate were being conducted by rigourous debate principles, you would have been asked to withdraw for clear and repeated refusal to engage arguments of your &quot;opponents&quot;.

I proposed, some while ago, that we hold a proper debate on this most vital subject.There are, as we can see, vigorous champions of both sides making vigorous claims.Drew is here, if I read him correctly, wishing that it was a proper debate so that ZW could be censured fairly. I personally wish that it was a proper debate on the lines that I proposed.Here we have every Tom, Dick and Harry leaping forth against one - and confusion, cantankerousness, and cussedness rearing their ugly heads.SO I CALL ON BOTH SIDES TO DEBATE PROPERLY, AND TO SET IT UP PROPERLY. That way we shall see some progress in forming our understanding of THIS MOST VITAL SUBJECT.Whichever side is correct, neither the Father nor the Son can be pleased with the other.It is in all our interests to do this properly so that the correct conclusion may be drawn, and that the open-minded may be instructed.