Is Jesus really God ?

[stovebolts]

I believe Jesus is God. God needed to come to earth in human form, so he did so as Jesus Christ.

I dont believe you do, since you believe that many He wants to save will not be saved, thats not the God I serve and worship..

SBG,
I've put in bold and underlined your violation of this sites TOS.
16 - No ad hominem attacks. Criticize ideas, not people.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ Deity explained !

The Lord Jesus Christ is not Deity because the Father generated Him or begat Him into being God [This is Hersey] and by this He has His Fathers nature by generation, but it is that He is Divine or Deity because God the Word, the second Being in the God Head assumed Jesus Christ in His Mediator Son Ship Nature, which was begotten, by a eternal hypostatic union.

So the Deity of Christ is derived or communicated to Him from His Eternal Union with the Logos of God, by means of a Eternal Hypostatic Union. This was before the incarnation in Mary's womb. So I believe in a Eternal Union with the Man Christ Jesus and God the Word.​

 

[savedbygrace57]

more on Christ Deity explained.

So the Eternal Sonship of Christ consists in both a Eternal generation and a Eternal Hypostatic Union. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Father's only begotten Son in regards to His Mediatorial Manhood by Eternal generation, but He derives His Deity by His Eternal Union with God the Word [Jn 1:1], so by these two eternal acts, we discern the Mystery of His Person and His Sonship. He is the Son of God by Eternal generation [ the only begotten son] as the Head of the Church col 1:


15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And He is the Divine Word by virtue of a Union with Him. These truths can and will only be revealed to the elect world...​

 

[Scotth1960]

HOORAY and AMEN.

Dear Strangelove and all friends, Jesus Christ is the only-begotten Son of God, the Messiah (Christ), the Son of the living God (Matt. 16, John 3).
Christ is Lord, true God and true man, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, through Whom all things made, whether visible or invisible. Christ is the God-man, God incarnate, one Person in two natures, Divine and human. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus Christ is the upholder of all things !

More scripture that substantiates that Jesus Christ is God.. For He, Jesus Christ is the upholder of all things ! heb 1:

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

For it is not only written that all things were created by Him, and for Him, but also that by Him all things consist [subsist] col 1:


16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Now, is not that Being who supports all things God ? Then Christ is Truly God, for He is the Creator and Supporter of all things, for by the word of His Power, He continually sustains[preserves] His creation, preventing it from Chaos and disintegrating Heb 1:

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

He does this by His own inherit ability or power and not derived..for it says He does this by the word of His Power..​

 

[zionwarrior]

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Here we see Jesus saying he did not come by his own power, but was sent by his father.

 

[zionwarrior]

1
32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come (Matthew 12).

So the holy spirit and the Son are not co-equal and are different beings.

2
15 He said to them: You, though, who do you say I am?
16 In answer Simon Peter said: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 In response Jesus said to him: Happy you are, Simon, son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did (Matthew 16).

So God revealed it not Jesus, so they are two different spirits.

3
23 He said to them: You will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father (Matthew 20).

So God and Jesus have separate possessions.
4
18 Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God (Mark 10).

So God is good and Jesus is not, so they are different people with different characters and different levels of righteousness.

536 Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father (Matthew 24).

So God knows things that Jesus does not know. So they have no 'unity of Godhead'.

6
1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God. Exercise faith also in me (John 14).

Two different beings to put your faith in.

7
28 You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am (John 14).

So the two of them are not co-equal then.

8
42 saying: Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let not my will, but yours take place (Luke 22).

So God and Jesus have two different wills. So there is no 'unity of Godhead'.

9
41 Therefore they took the stone away. Now Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: Father, I thank you that you have heard me.
42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but on account of the crowd standing around I spoke, in order that they might believe that you sent me forth (John 11).

So God sent Jesus forth, and God himself remained entirely in heaven whilst Jesus was on the earth.

10
9 You must pray, then, this way: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified (Matthew 6).

Jesus himself was entirely on earth and God was entirely in heaven when he said this!

11 (we were enjoying ourselves so much)!
46 About the 9th hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Matthew 27).

One cannot easily forsake oneself can one! The Father was God of the son. The son was not God of the father. This was one of Sir Isaac Newton's anti trinity arguments.

As a final argument, if it is true that Jesus and God are the same person, then Jesus talked to himself in public, and prayed to himself in private and so was in fact a schizophrenic. This is plainly a false insult both to God and to his Son.

12 (and another thing...)
16 The one alone having immortality [aqanasian], dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no one of men has seen, nor is able to see (1 Timothy 6).

Literally aqanasian means 'without death'. So God has not died and will never die. Whereas of course Jesus has died. Therefore Jesus is not God - QED.

13 (why stop?)
5 So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him: You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.
6 Just as he says also in another place: You are a priest forever according to the manner of Melchizedek.
7 In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.
8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;
9 and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,
10 because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5)

One cannot be a priest of oneself. Jesus must be a different person to God in order that he can be God's priest. Just as Melchizedek was a different person to God. God became Jesus' father again by saving him out of death, by resurrecting him.

14
23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power (1 Corinthians15).

How do you hand over something to yourself?

 

[zionwarrior]

THE HEBREW WORD "ELOHIM" - (confusion surrounding the fact that Jesus is reffered to as God)

Numerous times in the Old Testament the Hebrew word elohim is used for the word God. It is often used when referring to the Heavenly Father, but the meaning of elohim is simply "mighty one" or one in authority. Given this, elohim is applied to angels as in Psalm 8:5 "You have made him (the future Messiah) a little lower than the angels (elohim) and have crowned him with glory and honor."
In other instances in the Old Testament elohim is used when speaking of powerful human beings. For instance in Exodus 7:1 Moses is called elohim "See I have made you as God to Pharaoh." Psalm 82:6-7 refers to the saints as elohim "I said you are gods, and all of you are children of the most high God."

 

[Sparkey]

1
32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come (Matthew 12).

So the holy spirit and the Son are not co-equal and are different beings.

2
15 He said to them: You, though, who do you say I am?
16 In answer Simon Peter said: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 In response Jesus said to him: Happy you are, Simon, son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did (Matthew 16).

So God revealed it not Jesus, so they are two different spirits.

I hope that every Christian would disagree with your statement that Jesus is a spirit. Jesus came in flesh. He's a man. Jesus lives in his body (his flesh) even now. He was tempted in every way, like as we. How could it be true for a spirit to have been tempted in every way that we are? He was sorely tempted [by the desires of the flesh] yet didn't sin. He did not have a place to call his own but do you think that he never wanted a house to call a home? He sacrificed all and has inherited all. He speaks.

We must needs take care with our conclusions drawn from the mouth of our Christ, the one with wisdom from the ages unlimited. Consider his words (New King James Version) as he taught and a man asked him about possessions:

"Then one from the crowd said to Him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me." But He said to him, "Man, who made Me a judge or an arbitrator over you?"" - Luke 12:13-14 NKJV

One could conclude that Jesus said he was not a judge. That's not what he said.
Now before you turn your "logic" (part of your logos) on me, let me immediately affirm that Jesus and the Father are one. I have called on His Name.

~Sparrow

 

[Free]

I hope that every Christian would disagree with your statement that Jesus is a spirit. Jesus came in flesh. He's a man. Jesus lives in his body (his flesh) even now.

Correct. Jesus still is the God-man and there is nothing in Scripture to indicate otherwise.

1
32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come (Matthew 12).

So the holy spirit and the Son are not co-equal and are different beings.

2
15 He said to them: You, though, who do you say I am?
16 In answer Simon Peter said: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 In response Jesus said to him: Happy you are, Simon, son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did (Matthew 16).

So God revealed it not Jesus, so they are two different spirits.

3
23 He said to them: You will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father (Matthew 20).

So God and Jesus have separate possessions.
4
18 Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God (Mark 10).

So God is good and Jesus is not, so they are different people with different characters and different levels of righteousness.

536 Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father (Matthew 24).

So God knows things that Jesus does not know. So they have no 'unity of Godhead'.

6
1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God. Exercise faith also in me (John 14).

Two different beings to put your faith in.

7
28 You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am (John 14).

So the two of them are not co-equal then.

8
42 saying: Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let not my will, but yours take place (Luke 22).

So God and Jesus have two different wills. So there is no 'unity of Godhead'.

9
41 Therefore they took the stone away. Now Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: Father, I thank you that you have heard me.
42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but on account of the crowd standing around I spoke, in order that they might believe that you sent me forth (John 11).

So God sent Jesus forth, and God himself remained entirely in heaven whilst Jesus was on the earth.

10
9 You must pray, then, this way: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified (Matthew 6).

Jesus himself was entirely on earth and God was entirely in heaven when he said this!

11 (we were enjoying ourselves so much)!
46 About the 9th hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Matthew 27).

One cannot easily forsake oneself can one! The Father was God of the son. The son was not God of the father. This was one of Sir Isaac Newton's anti trinity arguments.

As a final argument, if it is true that Jesus and God are the same person, then Jesus talked to himself in public, and prayed to himself in private and so was in fact a schizophrenic. This is plainly a false insult both to God and to his Son.

12 (and another thing...)
16 The one alone having immortality [aqanasian], dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no one of men has seen, nor is able to see (1 Timothy 6).

Literally aqanasian means 'without death'. So God has not died and will never die. Whereas of course Jesus has died. Therefore Jesus is not God - QED.

13 (why stop?)
5 So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him: You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.
6 Just as he says also in another place: You are a priest forever according to the manner of Melchizedek.
7 In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.
8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;
9 and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,
10 because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5)

One cannot be a priest of oneself. Jesus must be a different person to God in order that he can be God's priest. Just as Melchizedek was a different person to God. God became Jesus' father again by saving him out of death, by resurrecting him.

14
23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power (1 Corinthians15).

How do you hand over something to yourself?

Proof-texting never gets anyone anywhere. These passages are all taken out of the context of the entirety of Scripture and as such, they seem to say something they are not. In places you are confusing Trinitarian theology with Oneness theology, so it isn't clear whether or not you are trying to refute both or just one of them.

Also, are you intending to promote polytheism, something which is strictly forbidden in Scripture?

 

[Scotth1960]

Many of the adversaries of the Truth of the Deity of Christ make their appeal to those scriptures which highlight His Manhood or His subordinate role as the Mediator, and I would be the First to agree that in those capacities and nature, He is inferior to the Father; But all that does not disprove His Deity according to His Divine Nature, by which He is God of very God, and this revelation should humble us in Adoration ! I am sure that scripture sets forth the Lord Jesus Christ as Truly Man, and equally as sure the scripture sets Him forth as the Word become Flesh Jn 1:1,14 and that Word was God ! It cannot be made more plainer than that.

Jn 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So in His Divine Being and Nature as the Eternal Logos, He is God, Uncreated, Unbegotten, Ungenerated. He was God manifested in the Flesh, God becoming a Man as you and I, sin excepted.

To the adversaries of the Truth who zero in on the inferior nature of Christ, that born of a women, that in itself does not disprove the Existence of His Divine Nature in alliance with the human and inferior.

My Father is greater than I Jn 14:


28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

For what does this prove that Trinitarians do not already acknowledge ? In that, in His Manhood, and Mediatorial office, he is in subjection to the Father. This scripture however was never intended to contradict another text which declares in His Divine Nature, as the Word [ Jn 1:1], He is God, and of the same Essence !​

Dear Savedbygrace, The Father is greater than I, as Christ said, was just meant
to show the Monarchy of the Father. The Son did not cause the Father, but the Father caused the Son. The Father causes the Son and the Spirit. The Son and the Spirit do not cause the Father. Father, Son, and Spirit are co-eternal and have always existed and always will exist. But the First Cause within the Trinity is the Father alone. He is the Divine fountain from which flows the living water of the Son and of the Spirit. All three Persons, Father and Son and Spirit, are equally God and consubstantial. But the Father is the Monarch from whom come the Son and the Spirit; the Son comes from the Father by being begotten eternally of the Father; the Spirit comes from the Father by proceeding eternally from the Father. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
PS Yes, Jesus Christ is really God. He is a man, too.
But not two persons. One Person in two natures, Divine and human.

 

[savedbygrace57]

More scripture that substantiates that Jesus Christ is God

This is seen by the way Paul ascribes Glory to Him, Jesus Christ, in the same manner as the Father..

2 tim 4:


17Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


cp vs 17 with acts 23:

11And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

 

[zionwarrior]

FREE ... Your mind is obviously closed if you can make a statement such as that.

John 7

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

[zionwarrior]

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. (1 John 4:14)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (John 5:24)

& No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (John 6:44-45)



Those who deny Jesus is the son of God is not of God. And he that not believe in the father as God alone shall not have everlasting life and come into condemnation.

 

[Free]

FREE ... Your mind is obviously closed if you can make a statement such as that.

Well obviously it is, I disagree with you. That is what it boils down to, isn't it?

Regardless, which statement makes you think my mind is closed?

1. "Proof-texting never gets anyone anywhere." This is very true.

2. "These passages are all taken out of the context of the entirety of Scripture and as such, they seem to say something they are not." This is true as well and this goes for all Scripture.

3. "In places you are confusing Trinitarian theology with Oneness theology, so it isn't clear whether or not you are trying to refute both or just one of them." This is true too. You stated:

"As a final argument, if it is true that Jesus and God are the same person, then Jesus talked to himself in public, and prayed to himself in private and so was in fact a schizophrenic. This is plainly a false insult both to God and to his Son."

That is anti-Oneness, not anti-trinitarian.

4. "Also, are you intending to promote polytheism, something which is strictly forbidden in Scripture?" This is merely a question which you didn't answer. You had stated:

"So the holy spirit and the Son are not co-equal and are different beings."

"Two different beings to put your faith in."

Such statements are polytheistic, at least until you qualify them somehow.

So, really, I fail to see which statement I made would make you think I am closed-minded.

John 7

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Merely posting Scripture neither shows that one understands it nor does it bring understanding to any who read it.

 

[Free]

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. (1 John 4:14)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (John 5:24)

& No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (John 6:44-45)

Again, merely posting Scripture does not mean one understands it.

Those who deny Jesus is the son of God is not of God. And he that not believe in the father as God alone shall not have everlasting life and come into condemnation.

Those are very strong words. Need I remind you that the TOS to which you agreed when you signed up include the following: "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act." The doctrine of the Trinity is a basic tenet of the Christian faith.

 

[zionwarrior]

The same could be said of your posts in regard to TOS, and that my point of view for many is also a basic tenet of the Christian faith.

The Trinity is not scriptural, nowhere in the bible does it say 'trinity'. It is a false doctrine.
If God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have stated the doctrine clearly.

It actually has pagan roots that go back to babylon and its Christian use is a product of Constantine and the THE NICAEAN CREED
Constantine merged many pagan beleifs with christianity to make it more acceptable to pagans.
For more details ...

 

[zionwarrior]

I was raised a Roman Catholic and spent 11 years in the catholic school system. I am no stranger to the Trinity. I have also been part of a Pentecostal Church, have studied with Jehovahs Witnesses, have also studied the Koran.

I beleive I have a pretty rounded view of Christianity from a number of perspectives.

I find most Trinitarians have always been trinitarians, and have never entertained the fact that they could be wrong.

I believe that unless you have an understanding of all angles of the debate, its impossible to make an informed decission. The same goes for asking for 'Holy Spirit' when you study. You need to be fully informed so the 'Holy Spirit' can show you the truth.

 

[Asyncritus]

Can someone please explain the meaning of:

"When all things are subjected to him [= the Son], then the Son himself will also be subjected

to him [= God] who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all"

1 Cor 15. 28

 

[Mohrb]

"The Father is greater than I."

... can't get any more clear than that. Except maybe 1 Corinthians 8:6 "There is for us only one God, the Father."

I can't fathom how people can ignore such clear scripture in exchange for an interpretation of a questionable translation of John 1:1.