Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[Serving Zion]

But the innocent did die to aquit the guilty!

It's just how you want to understand it....

Exactly.

The Penal Substitution Theory has in it the idea that God is a wrathful God and the He h ad to be satisfied
for the wrong that Adam caused to all of us....

The Satisfaction Theory is practically the same...but it states that Jesus' death satisfies the JUSTICE of God...
not the WRATH of God.

There really is no practical difference. If a judge cannot forgive unless some penalty is imposed (ie suffering), then it is only his thirst for wrath that prevents his forgiveness. It actually does not achieve any good to punish anyone after the offence has been done, because it doesn't undo the offence or lessen the harms of the offence. The wicked think that way because they do not understand justice. Justice is all about maintaining the good, but punishment is only useful in justice as a way of deterring future evil by showing that there is a risk if the person gets caught. That element of justice through punishment doesn't exist in the satisfaction theory, it is only wrath: "you have offended me and I am going to keep feeling offended until I see you bleed!". It's even worse to say "oh, but if you don't want to bleed, then bring me someone who's innocent and make them bleed, then I'll feel much better." Yeah there's people who are really like that, and they are fallen. That's where those theories originate.

It's unfortunate.

That's kind!

As I've stated... you need to find a church whose pastor you like and feel comfortable with.
Most Catholics do not need their priest, but Protestants want to be closer to their pastor...
so this will be important to you.

Our member Walpole is very well versed in Catholic doctrine/theology...
If you'd like to start a thread on questions...or ask him personally, he would be very able
to address them.

I'm really not that interested in Catholicism, it really doesn't show Jesus Christ but institution. Like I said, if I approach it and it proves to be unapproachable, it really doesn't have the right fruits.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sweet, an Immaculate Conception for everyone.

Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary has been free of original sin from the moment of her conception.

Psalm-51:5

You believe that a one year old sins?
How about a 5 year old?

Are YOU responsible for sins you don't know about?
Is a child responsible for sin if they don't know what it is?

No one is saying children are born INNOCENT....
it's just that they're not born GUILTY.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Good point.

But without substance.
A child does sin but is not held responsible for it until he/she is of age.
Jews have a bar mitzva, Catholics a confirmation, Protestants?
What do Protestants have?
I guess Protestants are suppose to be born again by the age of 12.
Anyway, This shows there is no immaculate conception involved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly.

There really is no practical difference. If a judge cannot forgive unless some penalty is imposed (ie suffering), then it is only his thirst for wrath that prevents his forgiveness. It actually does not achieve any good to punish anyone after the offence has been done, because it doesn't undo the offence or lessen the harms of the offence. The wicked think that way because they do not understand justice. Justice is all about maintaining the good, but punishment is only useful in justice as a way of deterring future evil by showing that there is a risk if the person gets caught. That element of justice through punishment doesn't exist in the satisfaction theory, it is only wrath: "you have offended me and I am going to keep feeling offended until I see you bleed!". It's even worse to say "oh, but if you don't want to bleed, then bring me someone who's innocent and make them bleed, then I'll feel much better." Yeah there's people who are really like that, and they are fallen. That's where those theories originate.

But you're thinking in human terms here.
Justice, BTW, does not mean maintaining the good.
Justice means that each one gets what he deserves.

If you don't get the difference, that's fine...it's a theory, and if you check each one you'll find that each one is lacing something
or other.

I do understand the difference.
In one God is mad and wrathful...a mean God that wants to punish someone very high up for Adam's sin and letting Him down.
In the other God is a just God and His justice has been tarnished and he's forced to ammend for this.

I'm really not that interested in Catholicism, it really doesn't show Jesus Christ but institution. Like I said, if I approach it and it proves to be unapproachable, it really doesn't have the right fruits.

The Catholic Church is Jesus centered.
It does also teach about Mary and if this bothers you, then it bothers you.
Mary was the mother of our Lord and she is to be respected and loved.
The CC does not teach that she is to be worshipped.
But if it's not for you, then I just pray you find a church you do like.
There are plenty to choose from.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

But you're thinking in human terms here.
Justice, BTW, does not mean maintaining the good.
Justice means that each one gets what he deserves.

If you don't get the difference, that's fine...it's a theory, and if you check each one you'll find that each one is lacing something
or other.

I do understand the difference.
In one God is mad and wrathful...a mean God that wants to punish someone very high up for Adam's sin and letting Him down.
In the other God is a just God and His justice has been tarnished and he's forced to ammend for this.

The Catholic Church is Jesus centered.
It does also teach about Mary and if this bothers you, then it bothers you.
Mary was the mother of our Lord and she is to be respected and loved.
The CC does not teach that she is to be worshipped.
But if it's not for you, then I just pray you find a church you do like.
There are plenty to choose from.

The romanist catechism is Mary centered.
If that is not worship, then why 10 hail mary's with every confession?

 

[GodsGrace]

But without substance.
A child does sin but is not held responsible for it until he/she is of age.
Jews have a bar mitzva, Catholics a confirmation, Protestants?
What do Protestants have?
I guess Protestants are suppose to be born again by the age of 12.
Anyway, This shows there is no immaculate conception involved.

Just for everyone's information....
In Catholicism a youngster does not become responsible for their sins
at confirmation time.
This is how it SHOULD be, but since parents these days do not contribute
to the catechizing of their children and Christianity is not part of the home setting...
what happens is that the age could be younger than about 12/13 or it could be older
than that.

Just so people here don't get the idea that if a Catholic child sins after Confirmation they go
straight to hell if they die.

I agree with all you've said otherwise.

 

[GodsGrace]

The romanist catechism is Mary centered.
If that is not worship, then why 10 hail mary's with every confession?

The church has changed a lot since you went there Rollo.
Some don't even go for confession, but for advice, for example.

Persons are not automatically given 10 Hail Marys.
I never got any prayers to say.
One time the priest spoke to me about Jesus calming the storm.
They love children and are very nice to them.

And if you want to believe that the CC is Mary centered,,,I can't convince you otherwise.
I'm telling you it's not....
And you know I'm always right.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Just for everyone's information....
In Catholicism a youngster does not become responsible for their sins
at confirmation time.
This is how it SHOULD be, but since parents these days do not contribute
to the catechizing of their children and Christianity is not part of the home setting...
what happens is that the age could be younger than about 12/13 or it could be older
than that.

Just so people here don't get the idea that if a Catholic child sins after Confirmation they go
straight to hell if they die.

I agree with all you've said otherwise.

In the romanist catechism, Article 2, section 1287, it states that the time of receiving the Holy Spirit is during Confirmation, which is also one of the 7 sacraments of the church.
Have you ever received confirmation?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The church has changed a lot since you went there Rollo.
Some don't even go for confession, but for advice, for example.

Persons are not automatically given 10 Hail Marys.
I never got any prayers to say.
One time the priest spoke to me about Jesus calming the storm.
They love children and are very nice to them.

And if you want to believe that the CC is Mary centered,,,I can't convince you otherwise.
I'm telling you it's not....
And you know I'm always right.

wondering, you are misinformed.
You are so far up in the mountains, you don't even have a church to go to.
In the romanist catechism, the worship of Mary begins in section 141 and continues through section 971.
That's the heart of the romanist catechism
But of course, when you get all your information from google, it is understandable of your misgivings.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you misread my post (or I didn't state it clearly)

I said the person I was addressing was adding a CAUSE to the Cornelius story; he was adding the reason for Cornelius seeking God was Cornelius alone. I agree with you, that the cause of Cornelius seeking God was NOT stated. (This is the best I can recall, if you can cut and paste and exact quote showing exactly what I 'added to scripture' I would address it.)



I agree with the rest of your post with one exception. You said:


Evidence to contradict this assertion is plentiful. The amount of disagreement that the posters submit every day on this site being one example. LOL, we can't even agree on how one must do to be saved. Then there are parables and "we are made in the image of God" that people twist to fit their purpose ... and eschatology seems to be anybodies guess. Jesus ascended into hell ...
God is transcendent (beyond or above the range of normal or merely physical human experience).
Aside: perhaps your definition of "plain and simple" differs from mine.

The above deserves a good reply, but I'm just too tired.
Will be logging off after this...

As to Cornelius:
If you read Acts 10:1 to, let's say, 5 or 6...it tells about Cornelius.
It does not state HOW Cornelius came to be a devout man.
So you can't assume that it's because God regenerated him.
If it doesn't say how it happened, we have to assume that it came about some
way that is found in the bible.

For example:
Romans 1:19-20
you know, we've been down this road....
From the beginning of time,,,man has been AWARE of God through God's creation so that all men (even the ones without the bible or the ones that never even heard of Jesus) will be without excuse. The Indian of 1232 that was worshipping God was saved. Those Indians that did not worship God were not saved. Man has always been saved by faith.

The simplicity of the bible...
Paul said some difficult things...
but a simple person could also read it and understand what God expects from them.
This is the best I can do since I'm falling asleep !

 

[GodsGrace]

In the romanist catechism, Article 2, section 1287, it states that the time of receiving the Holy Spirit is during Confirmation, which is also one of the 7 sacraments of the church.
Have you ever received confirmation?

Trust me sometimes.
Some kids that make their confirmation SHOULD NOT BE MAKING IT.
Priests feel badly about putting them aside.
God is God....
God knows the heart, even in the CC.
It's the same God.

You think all the kids that make their confirmation actually receive the Holy Spirit?
Anyway, the Holy Spirit is received at Baptism...not at Confirmation.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering, you are misinformed.
You are so far up in the mountains, you don't even have a church to go to.
In the romanist catechism, the worship of Mary begins in section 141 and continues through section 971.
That's the heart of the romanist catechism
But of course, when you get all your information from google, it is understandable of your misgivings.

GOOGLE!!!!
What nerve you have!
Where's the moderator!!!!

First of all the CCC does not go by sections...
It goes by paragraphs.

Second of all, I've taught from the CCC and I don't really care what it says...
It was printed 30 years ago. It is now 2021 - the last time I checked.

So what do you mean by SECTION?
For instance PARAGRPAH 141 speaks of how the church has ALWAYS VENERATED THE DIVINE SCRIPTURES.

I'll wait two minutes and then I have to say bye bye.

And for all the new people here...
WE'RE JUST KIDDING!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Trust me sometimes.
Some kids that make their confirmation SHOULD NOT BE MAKING IT.
Priests feel badly about putting them aside.
God is God....
God knows the heart, even in the CC.
It's the same God.

You think all the kids that make their confirmation actually receive the Holy Spirit?
Anyway, the Holy Spirit is received at Baptism...not at Confirmation.

That's not what the romanist catechism says.
You need to stop getting your information from the old lady down the street whose antenna reaches the Vatican tv station.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's not what the romanist catechism says.
You need to stop getting your information from the old lady down the street whose antenna reaches the Vatican tv station.

And stop calling it the Romanist Catechism.
Thanks.

Oh, and what does it say?
Paragraph please.
Thanks.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

And stop calling it the Romanist Catechism.
Thanks.

Oh, and what does it say?
Paragraph please.
Thanks.

I never capitalized romanist.
I already gave you the section in a previous post.
Stop going so fast.
Paragraphs and sections are not perfectly interchangeable, though they are at times...

 

[JLB]

Your 1st statement, taken to a logical conclusion, shows you believe in The Immaculate Conception for everyone IMO.

I think you misrepresented yourself. Let's go through the logic. You said in the 1st statement that children are innocent until they commit sin. Since "innocent" means "not guilty of a crime or offense" and since the Immaculate Conception means free of original sin from the moment of her conception the conclusion easily follows:
Premise 1: children are innocent until they commit sin
Premise 2: "innocent" means "not guilty of a crime or offense"
Premise 3: Immaculate Conception means free of original sin
Conclusion: You statement means all children are the result of Immaculate Conception
This is logic 101

Now, in the 2nd statement above you state "everyone is born with a physical body that contains sin" which contradicts your 1st statement the says "children who know neither good nor evil are innocent, until they commit sin."

What you say and mean to say are at odds.

Im sorry you dont understand the difference between having a body that contains sin, and a person commiting a sin.


Do you understand as a Christian your body contains sin, but your spirit is cleansed of all sin (if you have confessed your sin).

We who are Christ's have the choice to either live our life according to the desires of our flesh, or live according to the Spirit who dwells in our spirit.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Can you answer these four questions with yes and no?

- Was Jesus just?
- Was Jesus condemned?
- Were those who are sanctified once guilty?
- Did those who are sanctified receive acquittal of their sins?

The reason I am asking this of you, is because what I see in your teaching does in fact conflict with Proverbs 17:15. I am hoping that in your answers I can see where I am mistakenly assuming your answers to these questions, so your bespoke answers will help me to know how I should regard you.

If you dont mind please post the scripture you want me to examine, and refer to the actual words of that particular scripture, like I did for you, using Isaiah 53.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Was Jesus just?

Jesus is just.

 

[JLB]

Was Jesus condemned?

Please post the scripture you are referring to, so I understand the context of your question.

 

[JLB]

Were those who are sanctified once guilty?

It would be speculating to try and answer this.