Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[JLB]

But I also know that you like to believe the very idea that Proverbs says is an abomination -

I havent seen any verse from proverbs that says it was an abomination for Jesus to suffer for our sins.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Men sinned in Adam, this is basic Rom 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Through Adam sin entered the world.


It doesnt say men sinned in Adam.

 

[JLB]

Yes it is. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous


According to the scripture here how are many made righteous?

Through Jesus Christ and His life commitment of obedience to do the will of His Father everyday, so when the time came for Him to be a sacrifice for our sins, He was sinless.



Only those who believe on Him will benefit from His obedience.

Its the way we are imputed with His righteousness.

I have shown this from Romans 4, which is the context from which Romans 5:9,19 is detived.



JLB

 

[Walpole]

Through Adam sin entered the world.


It doesnt say men sinned in Adam.

Apparently some people believe just being alive is itself a sinful act.

 

[Fastfredy0]

However, little children who know neither good nor evil are innocent, until they commit sin.


What sin does a 6 month old baby commit?

Your statement, taken to a logical conclusion, shows you believe in The Immaculate Conception for everyone IMO.

Definition: Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary has been free of original sin from the moment of her conception.

The penalty for sin is death ... apparently, new born or those that are aborted suffer that same penalty of death even though they "are innocent .... after all, What sin does a 6 month old baby commit".

Psalm 51:5

 

[JLB]

Your statement, taken to a logical conclusion, shows you believe in The Immaculate Conception for everyone IMO.

That’s totally ridiculous.


Please don’t misrepresent me.


Again, as I said everyone is born with a physical body that contains sin. This came from Adam.


Eventually each person will give in to the lustful desires of the sin contained in their body.


Obviously, by this statement, everyone can plainly see that I don’t believe in immaculate conception for everyone.



Don’t misrepresent what I have said again.






JLB

 

[JLB]

Your statement, taken to a logical conclusion, shows you believe in The Immaculate Conception for everyone IMO.

Definition: Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary has been free of original sin from the moment of her conception.

The penalty for sin is death ... apparently, new born or those that are aborted suffer that same penalty of death even though they "are innocent .... after all, What sin does a 6 month old baby commit".

Psalm 51:5

Now maybe you could answer my question, so we can continue with the discussion.


What sin does a 6 month old baby commit?


If you could name one, then that would be helpful.


Idolatry?
Taking the name of the Lord in vain?
Dishonoring father or mother?
Murder?
Adultery?
Stealing?
Lying?
Coveting?




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

However, little children who know neither good nor evil are innocent, until they commit sin.

Again, as I said everyone is born with a physical body that contains sin.

Your 1st statement, taken to a logical conclusion, shows you believe in The Immaculate Conception for everyone IMO.

Please don’t misrepresent me.

I think you misrepresented yourself. Let's go through the logic. You said in the 1st statement that children are innocent until they commit sin. Since "innocent" means "not guilty of a crime or offense" and since the Immaculate Conception means free of original sin from the moment of her conception the conclusion easily follows:
Premise 1: children are innocent until they commit sin
Premise 2: "innocent" means "not guilty of a crime or offense"
Premise 3: Immaculate Conception means free of original sin
Conclusion: You statement means all children are the result of Immaculate Conception
This is logic 101

Now, in the 2nd statement above you state "everyone is born with a physical body that contains sin" which contradicts your 1st statement the says "children who know neither good nor evil are innocent, until they commit sin."

What you say and mean to say are at odds.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What sin does a 6 month old baby commit?

Your communication skills are lacking IMO (or mine). You changed the topic slightly above. Your original statement was:

little children who know neither good nor evil are innocent,

To your original statement I reply: Psalm 51:5
.... again I repeat, if you stand by the original statement you made that children are born innocent then this is a belief supporting the concept of the immaculate conception. I believe that not what you mean to say, but that is what the meaning of what you said is. I believe you cleared the issue up by saying:

everyone is born with a physical body that contains sin. This came from Adam.

I assume you cleared it up on the assumption that the last statement you made is the one you truly mean to say and not the first statement in which you said "children ... are innocent".

Aside: Again, one or both of us is having a communication problem.

 

[brightfame52]

Through Adam sin entered the world.


It doesnt say men sinned in Adam.

I know what it says. I quoted the scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Through Jesus Christ and His life commitment of obedience to do the will of His Father everyday, so when the time came for Him to be a sacrifice for our sins, He was sinless.



Only those who believe on Him will benefit from His obedience.

Its the way we are imputed with His righteousness.

I have shown this from Romans 4, which is the context from which Romans 5:9,19 is detived.



JLB

The many were made righteous by His One obedience, in the same respect many were made sinners by one disobedience Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Serving Zion]

I havent seen any verse from proverbs that says it was an abomination for Jesus to suffer for our sins.




JLB

Can you answer these four questions with yes and no?

- Was Jesus just?
- Was Jesus condemned?
- Were those who are sanctified once guilty?
- Did those who are sanctified receive acquittal of their sins?

The reason I am asking this of you, is because what I see in your teaching does in fact conflict with Proverbs 17:15. I am hoping that in your answers I can see where I am mistakenly assuming your answers to these questions, so your bespoke answers will help me to know how I should regard you.

 

[GodsGrace]

You did not address my comments for a second time.

Cause and Effect, cause and effect.

Here's the problem with cause and effect FF.

You're adding words to scripture.
All it says about Cornelius is that he:

Was a Centurion
He was a devout man (without the bible -- go figure)
He feared God
He gave alms to the Jews
He prayed to God continually

He was MUCH ALARMED when he heard an angel of God speak to him...
Acts 10:4

We must stay with what the verses state...
Exegesis 101.

We cannot take away from the verse or add to the verse.

In order to make Acts 10 say what YOU WANT it to say,,,
you have to ADD to the verses. This is not correct and should not be done.

The bible is plain and simple to understand....
take it at its word.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Here's the problem with cause and effect FF.

I think you misread my post (or I didn't state it clearly)

I said the person I was addressing was adding a CAUSE to the Cornelius story; he was adding the reason for Cornelius seeking God was Cornelius alone. I agree with you, that the cause of Cornelius seeking God was NOT stated. (This is the best I can recall, if you can cut and paste and exact quote showing exactly what I 'added to scripture' I would address it.)



I agree with the rest of your post with one exception. You said:

The bible is plain and simple to understand....

Evidence to contradict this assertion is plentiful. The amount of disagreement that the posters submit every day on this site being one example. LOL, we can't even agree on how one must do to be saved. Then there are parables and "we are made in the image of God" that people twist to fit their purpose ... and eschatology seems to be anybodies guess. Jesus ascended into hell ...
God is transcendent (beyond or above the range of normal or merely physical human experience).
Aside: perhaps your definition of "plain and simple" differs from mine.

 

[GodsGrace]

Alright, well as I've said already, my experience of having approached the Catholic church in the past has rather put me off. I am now genuinely unsure of how to approach them at all because of the last time I asked I got so rudely fobbed off. I wouldn't mind approaching them if they were in fact approachable, but the fact is that their system and the size of their institution tends to empower their condescension to the degree that it is practically incapable of acquiring serious adherents.

Is it no wonder then, that the blood of animals could never take away sin? (Hebrews 10:26-31). This is why we speak of a better covenant. I don't think of Jesus Christ as a scapegoat because that is to punish the innocent in order to acquit the guilty - both of which are an abomination in the eyes of Adonai (Proverbs 17:15).

But the innocent did die to aquit the guilty!

It's just how you want to understand it....

The Penal Substitution Theory has in it the idea that God is a wrathful God and the He h ad to be satisfied
for the wrong that Adam caused to all of us....

The Satisfaction Theory is practically the same...but it states that Jesus' death satisfies the JUSTICE of God...
not the WRATH of God.

Alright, well as I've said already, my experience of having approached the Catholic church in the past has rather put me off. I am now genuinely unsure of how to approach them at all because of the last time I asked I got so rudely fobbed off. I wouldn't mind approaching them if they were in fact approachable, but the fact is that their system and the size of their institution tends to empower their condescension to the degree that it is practically incapable of acquiring serious adherents.

Is it no wonder then, that the blood of animals could never take away sin? (Hebrews 10:26-31). This is why we speak of a better covenant. I don't think of Jesus Christ as a scapegoat because that is to punish the innocent in order to acquit the guilty - both of which are an abomination in the eyes of Adonai (Proverbs 17:15).

It's unfortunate.
As I've stated... you need to find a church whose pastor you like and feel comfortable with.
Most Catholics do not need their priest, but Protestants want to be closer to their pastor...
so this will be important to you.

Our member Walpole is very well versed in Catholic doctrine/theology...
If you'd like to start a thread on questions...or ask him personally, he would be very able
to address them.

 

[Walpole]

Here's the problem with cause and effect FF.

You're adding words to scripture.
All it says about Cornelius is that he:

Was a Centurion
He was a devout man (without the bible -- go figure)
He feared God
He gave alms to the Jews
He prayed to God continually

He was MUCH ALARMED when he heard an angel of God speak to him...
Acts 10:4

We must stay with what the verses state...
Exegesis 101.

We cannot take away from the verse or add to the verse.

In order to make Acts 10 say what YOU WANT it to say,,,
you have to ADD to the verses. This is not correct and should not be done.

The bible is plain and simple to understand....
take it at its word.

He is also unregenerate, does not believe in Jesus, has not heard the Gospel and even tried to worship St. Peter. Yet, he is declared to be righteous and God is pleased by his prayers and almsgiving to the poor.

Cornelius does what Reformed theology states is impossible. Thus he is the clearest example of the fallaciousness of Reformed theology and it's Ordo Salutis.

 

[GodsGrace]

I already stated that those whom Christ died, rendered obedience to God for, were made righteous by that before they are born. Rom 5:19 Later they are given Faith to apprehend that, hence they become Justified by Faith, faith apprehends that one had been Justified by Christs Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

This is also for Fastfredy0

I'd like to understand how you can believe (your belief system) that we are predestined to
be saved from the beginning of time.

I don't think I received an answer for this.....(not sure).

IF someone is predestined to be saved from the beginning of time...
WHY would they need to ever receive faith at all?
WHY would they ever need to be regenerated?

It seems to me that they are born saved....no?

And this is why babies, in the calvinist understanding, could go to hell?
Because they are lost from the beginning of time?

Thanks for your answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Men sinned in Adam, this is basic Rom 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

We did not sin before we were born.

We suffer from the effects of Adam's sin...
but we are not personally responsible for his sin.

This is why children are innocent until the age of reason.
They don't UNDERSTAND what sin is and, thankfully for us, God is a merciful and just God.

Death passed to all men....means that our relationship with God died.
Our bodies will die - they were meant to live forever.
So it is this death we face....
but we are each RESPONSIBLE only for our own sins.

But in the calvinist paradigm it is God that makes us sin....
so how do you square that circle anyway?
Unfortunately for you....you cannot.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Your statement, taken to a logical conclusion, shows you believe in The Immaculate Conception for everyone IMO.

Definition: Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary has been free of original sin from the moment of her conception.

The penalty for sin is death ... apparently, new born or those that are aborted suffer that same penalty of death even though they "are innocent .... after all, What sin does a 6 month old baby commit".

Psalm 51:5

Good point.

 

[GodsGrace]

He is also unregenerate, does not believe in Jesus, has not heard the Gospel and even tried to worship St. Peter. Yet, he is declared to be righteous and God is pleased by his prayers and almsgiving to the poor.

Cornelius does what Reformed theology states is impossible. Thus he is the clearest example of the fallaciousness of Reformed theology and it's Ordo Salutis.

Amen.

Man has always had the ability to seek after God.
Romans 1:19-20 proves this since, from the beginning, God has made Himself be known to man
so that man will be without excuse when He does not accept God...this even before there was a bible...
or where a bible is not available.

Cornelius is a great example....
and cause and effect is not the answer to everything....
which is what we get here on these discussions.

Even the ordo salutis is not found how the reformed undersand it.
It is always BELIEVE first
AND YOU WILL BE SAVED second.

Not the other way around.