Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[brightfame52]

No sir, we are not made righteous, (justified) before we hear and believe the Gospel.


Based on your theory we are righteous by birth, which excludes the need to be born again.

Those Christ died for are righteous by His Obedience before birth, thats imputed righteousness, they are still born sinners and need to be born again, then they can believe the Gospel of their Salvation.

 

[Serving Zion]

Based on your theory we are righteous by birth, which excludes the need to be born again.

We are righteous by birth, and the need to be born again is because the wages of sin is death. That's why Jesus says "see that you do not despise one of these little ones because the kingdom of God belongs to them". No baby is born having been guilty of sin, and so therefore they cannot be condemned for having done sin. Instead, James tells us that we are tempted by our desires, and when the desire conceives it gives birth to sin. Then when sin comes to maturity it brings forth death. That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus "you search the scriptures diligently thinking that you have life in them" but He says that the life is not found in the scriptures, but by the receiving of the spirit of God that the scriptures testify about. That's why He was saying that Nicodemus, though being scholarly and having a degree of qualification, was not able to see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus was only able to see the signs and wonders that he believed were proof that God was with Jesus. Many Christians also do not see the kingdom of God, only signs, and that is because the things of the spirit are foolishness to them (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

 

[Serving Zion]

I have not avoided anything. I directly replied to your post. Again, I disagree entirely with your post. Your claim is contrary to the parable Jesus tells. He states the weeds are NOT pulled out from the wheat UNTIL the harvest time. Not beforehand, as you asserted in your post.

"Let both grow together until the harvest" - Matthew 13:30

When Jesus explains this parable, He explicitly states, "the harvest is the END of the world." (Mt. 13:39)

I'm not disagreeing with what scripture says, but you seem to have an idea that what I'm saying is something different from what I am saying. I know that road never ends well, so again I will just leave it with you. For the third time, and not to be repeated, the word "tote" as the first word in the verse 43 says that the weeds must be "first" tied into bundles to be burned "and then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". He who has ears to hear must be allowed to hear.

 

[Walpole]

I'm not disagreeing with what scripture says, but you seem to have an idea that what I'm saying is something different from what I am saying. I know that road never ends well, so again I will just leave it with you. For the third time, and not to be repeated, the word "tote" as the first word in the verse 43 says that the weeds must be "first" tied into bundles to be burned "and then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". He who has ears to hear must be allowed to hear.

...And does that happen BEFORE the harvest, or at the harvest?

You ---> "That is why Jesus said that the weeds are to be pulled out and burned BEFORE THE CROP IS HARVESTED. There is no way, literally, that the crop can yield it's proper fruit when it is continually being choked by thorns."

Jesus ---> "Let both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST...the harvest is the END of the world." (Mt. 13:30, 39)


Once again, Jesus said pulling the weeds from wheat prior to the harvest would actually destroy the wheat.

 

[Serving Zion]

...And does that happen BEFORE the harvest, or at the harvest?

You ---> "That is why Jesus said that the weeds are to be pulled out and burned BEFORE THE CROP IS HARVESTED. There is no way, literally, that the crop can yield it's proper fruit when it is continually being choked by thorns."

Jesus ---> "Let both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST...the harvest is the END of the world." (Mt. 13:30, 39)


Once again, Jesus said pulling the weeds from wheat prior to the harvest would actually destroy the wheat.

Good on you for trying to work it out!

Maybe a picture can help to show you what I am saying:



Notice it is a timeline showing a chronology of events:

1. A period before the fall.
2. The fall.
3. A period before Jesus Christ.
4. Jesus Christ.
5. A period before the harvest ("until" the harvest).
6. The time of the harvest.
7. The weeds are pulled out.
8. The righteous shine.

Now, at present I say that we are situated somewhere in the time of step 5: a period before the harvest. What I have said is that the weeds are to be pulled out before the crop is harvested, and that is exactly what the scriptures say. What I'm not saying is that this very time is the time of the harvest, otherwise it will be that the sons of God would have already been revealed (Romans 8:19). What we see instead is that the sons of God are still concealed and that is why the creation is groaning.

 

[Fastfredy0]

"Not only would he be contradicting his own words and the words of Scripture, but he would be contradicting our very nature. We are creatures made in the image and likeness of our Creator. Hence man has an intellect and a will. He can thus know and love. Man is therefore a creature attuned to seeking causes and ends, and since God is necessarily the cause and the end of man, it is natural that man would seek Him.

If I had a nickel for every time someone wanted to validate a theological idea using "we were made in the image of God" is would be a millionaire.

 

[JLB]

I don't think of Jesus Christ as a scapegoat because that is to punish the innocent in order to acquit the guilty - both of which are an abomination in the eyes of Adonai (Proverbs 17:15).

So you don’t believe Jesus paid the penalty, or price for our sin on the cross?


Jesus is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

The lamb that was sacrificed on the day of Passover, was to be without spot, indicating the innocent sinless lamb would be sacrificed for the sin of the guilty.


That is the Gospel.


Jesus the innocent, sinless Man, God’s Son, sacrificed for the world guilty of sin.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Here are some questions we can ask ourself.


Was Jesus sinless? Yes
Was Jesus innocent? Yes
Are we sinful? Yes
Are we guilty? Yes








JLB

 

[JLB]

Why did Christ die for people that had not been born ? Thats an odd question Or maybe you dont believe Christ died for sinners unless they are born, which is a odd belief.

What sin did I commit before I was born?

 

[JLB]

Those Christ died for are righteous by His Obedience before birth, thats imputed righteousness

No sir.


Imputed righteousness is when we


But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
Romans 4:5-12

• but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

As we can see, the imputed righteousness was because Abraham walked in the steps of faith, the obedience of faith, BEFORE he was circumcised.

• Not before he was born.

Again, here s the example of Abraham being justified by faith, just as we are, BEFORE he was circumcised.



By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


This scripture is referring to Genesis 12, where Abraham was first justified by faith.




JLB

 

[JLB]

We are righteous by birth, and the need to be born again is because the wages of sin is death. That's why Jesus says "see that you do not despise one of these little ones because the kingdom of God belongs to them". No baby is born having been guilty of sin, and so therefore they cannot be condemned for having done sin. Instead, James tells us that we are tempted by our desires, and when the desire conceives it gives birth to sin. Then when sin comes to maturity it brings forth death. That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus "you search the scriptures diligently thinking that you have life in them" but He says that the life is not found in the scriptures, but by the receiving of the spirit of God that the scriptures testify about. That's why He was saying that Nicodemus, though being scholarly and having a degree of qualification, was not able to see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus was only able to see the signs and wonders that he believed were proof that God was with Jesus. Many Christians also do not see the kingdom of God, only signs, and that is because the things of the spirit are foolishness to them (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

I agree little children who have no awareness of good or evil are innocent.

 

[Serving Zion]

So you don’t believe Jesus paid the penalty, or price for our sin on the cross?

Yes you are right that I reject that teaching, upon the grounds I have already stated: it is contradicted by scripture and it grossly mischaracterises God.

Jesus is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

The lamb that was sacrificed on the day of Passover, was to be without spot, indicating the innocent sinless lamb would be sacrificed for the sin of the guilty.

It was John who characterized Jesus as a passover lamb. I understand that he did so in order to show how the times of blood sacrifice had been wound-up on account of the new and better covenant.

That is the Gospel.

"The Gospel" is an expression meaning "Good News". I do not think you can convince anyone that the death of Jesus is good news, especially if it is to give a pass for those who are guilty. But instead the good news is found in the resurrection of Jesus and His ascension to the right hand of The Father in heaven, to serve as the High Priest of the better covenant (Hebrews 7:23-25).

Jesus the innocent, sinless Man, God’s Son, sacrificed for the world guilty of sin.

That is an abomination. I already showed you where that is written in scripture.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Yes, He gave His only-begotten, and what did the world do? It said "this is the heir to the estate. If we kill him, we can have the whole estate for ourselves" and so they did just that. They even cursed themselves, saying "let his blood be on us and our offspring". It's abomination in God's sight to condemn the innocent.

Here are some questions we can ask ourself.

Was Jesus sinless? Yes
Was Jesus innocent? Yes
Are we sinful? Yes
Are we guilty? Yes

Nobody is born sinful though, and nobody is guilty without having sinned. Therefore the fact that we become sinful and guilty is due to the fact that we live in a world that makes it that way. It's really only in hope that God subjected the creation to the futility, and so it groans with birth pains even until this day, until the time comes when the sons of God are revealed (Romans 8:19).

 

[Serving Zion]

I agree little children who have no awareness of good or evil are innocent.

Yes indeed! Paul even went on to say that he was alive once apart from the Torah, and that when the commandment came, sin came to life and he died. (Romans 7:9).

 

[JLB]

Yes, He gave His only-begotten, and what did the world do? It said "this is the heir to the estate. If we kill him, we can have the whole estate for ourselves" and so they did just that.

That was His Covenant people who murdered Him.

 

[JLB]

Nobody is born sinful though, and nobody is guilty without having sinned. Therefore the fact that we become sinful and guilty is due to the fact that we live in a world that makes it that way.

We have sin in our flesh that every person has since Adam.

The sin desires to make us it’s slave. When we yield to its lustful desires, we are guilty of disobedience.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes you are right that I reject that teaching, upon the grounds I have already stated: it is contradicted by scripture and it grossly mischaracterises God.

Just the opposite, this is what the scripture so plainly teaches.



Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:4-6

• Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows;

• But He was wounded for our transgressions,He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him

• And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

again



For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 1 Peter 3:18






JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

I agree little children who have no awareness of good or evil are innocent.

Sweet, an Immaculate Conception for everyone.

Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary has been free of original sin from the moment of her conception.

Psalm-51:5

 

[Serving Zion]

Just the opposite, this is what the scripture so plainly teaches.

That's only what you think it teaches, because that is what you have been taught. But I also know that you like to believe the very idea that Proverbs says is an abomination - unless you perhaps might say that Jesus was not just or that Jesus was not condemned or the ones who are sanctified were not guilty or that they were not acquitted. Something just doesn't add up in that doctrine.

I'd be interested to talk more about it with you if you can explain how your views do not conflict with Proverbs 17:15.

 

[brightfame52]

What sin did I commit before I was born?

Men sinned in Adam, this is basic Rom 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[brightfame52]

No sir.


Imputed righteousness is when we


But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
Romans 4:5-12

• but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

As we can see, the imputed righteousness was because Abraham walked in the steps of faith, the obedience of faith, BEFORE he was circumcised.

• Not before he was born.

Again, here s the example of Abraham being justified by faith, just as we are, BEFORE he was circumcised.



By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


This scripture is referring to Genesis 12, where Abraham was first justified by faith.




JLB

Yes it is. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous


According to the scripture here how are many made righteous?

 

[JLB]

Sweet, an Immaculate Conception for everyone.

Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary has been free of original sin from the moment of her conception.

Psalm-51:5

We are all born with sin in our flesh.

However, little children who know neither good nor evil are innocent, until they commit sin.


What sin does a 6 month old baby commit?




JLB