Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[for_his_glory]

Fhg







These scriptures apply to the Sheep or followers of Christ and not the unbelieving world.

How does an unbeliever become a sheep (those of unbelief) in His fold if they do not first hear the Shepard calling them to repent and seek after Him?


Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[JLB]

Work it out, non Christians are slaves to sin, slaves of the devil. How does a slave get free from a master who does not want to let them go?

There are no ' good ' or ' innocent ' people, there are only slaves of the devil or slaves of Jesus, who have been adopted into God's family.

we don't save our selves, Jesus does that and God gives us the gift of faith.

Christians are warned not to be slaves of sin.


What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16


Paul is speaking to Christians who are under grace.



Each born again Christian must make the choice to either live according to the sinful desires of their flesh, or living according to the righteous impulses of the Spirit.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Man naturally does not seek God Rom 3

Did you seek Him or did you just miraculously become saved? Those of a hardened heart do not seek God for they are lovers of the world and have already condemned themselves as they have no truth found in them.

 

[JLB]

One must be saved from death before they come to God.

Please explain how one is saved without hearing the Gospel and responding in obedience?




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I dont see no conflict. Rom 3 is speaking about men by nature under sin, they dont seek God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Hence if a person does seek God, they have been made a new creature, they are regenerate, so no conflict

That's an oxymoron as you said no one seeks God, but now you are saying if they do. Do they seek or do they not. See how taking one verse out of the full context does not work in most cases.

 

[GodsGrace]

The same group of people also believe man is incapable of repenting. He has to be zapped by God first, which is completely backwards!

Ezekiel 18:30-32 ---> “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

God says ---> Repent, rid yourself of offenses and get a new heart and a new spirit.

But this group says ---> That's backwards! Get zapped by God, get a new heart and spirit then you can repent.


Another example...

Acts 11:18 ---> 'When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, 'Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.'”

God says ---> Repentance leads to life.

This group says ---> That's backwards! God zaps you with new life and only then you repent.



If you want to take it a step further, why is repentance even necessary based on this group's theology? After all, God created them depraved. So it's God's fault anyway. It should be God repenting for making them depraved and wicked.

My feeling is that this idea of being born TOTALLY depraved is much of the problem with that group.
This also removes any free will...
So everything about the bible has to change to fit their system.
One gets indoctrinated and then comes to the bible...
There's no way one could read the N.T. and come up with these ideas themselves.

And I've also said many times that if Calvinism is correct, then why even have the atonement?
God was going to save those He wanted to anyway.

Why even have repentance?
God was going to save those He wanted to anyway.

Your post is right on.

 

[Walpole]

One must be saved from death before they come to God. Dead people don't come, the quickened do. Man by nature is spiritually dead in sin, lost!

This post demonstrates the veracity of what I wrote here ---> https://christianforums.net/Fellows...lly-capable-of-seeking-god.85385/post-1606327

According to some, God must zap you. You are busy minding your own business then out of the blue, "ZAP!"

 

[for_his_glory]

Lol if a scripture says that none seeks after God then none seeks after God Rom 3:11. What you want to pretend the scripture does not exist.

If no one seeks after God then that would mean none of us sought after Him so can you see how flawed your understanding is by using just one particular scripture without the full context.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Have you asked and sought after Christ as you say no one seeks Him? No one can be saved first without coming to Christ first and are Spiritually born again, John 3:5-7.

 

[Walpole]

My feeling is that this idea of being born TOTALLY depraved is much of the problem with that group.
This also removes any free will...
So everything about the bible has to change to fit their system.
One gets indoctrinated and then comes to the bible...
There's no way one could read the N.T. and come up with these ideas themselves.

And I've also said many times that if Calvinism is correct, then why even have the atonement?
God was going to save those He wanted to anyway.

Why even have repentance?
God was going to save those He wanted to anyway.

Your post is right on.

Exactly. Atonement in Calvinism (penal substitution) is an absurdity. It also makes God out to be nothing more than a pagan volcano god, raging with pent up anger, hatred and rage, who is only appeased by throwing the virgin damsel in distress into the volcano. Jesus plays the part of the damsel in distress and becomes God's personal whipping boy. It's really no different than the pagan gods being appeased.

This stands in stark contrast to the Christian understanding of the act of Christ's offering of Himself to the Father out of love...
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:18)

"...and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

"...how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God." (Heb 9:14)
whereby Christ offers Himself to the Father


Here is a good illustration of the difference:

As far as repentance, that too makes no sense since there is nothing to repent of. If God made you totally depraved, it's his fault. He should be the one repenting for making you that way.

 

[for_his_glory]

One must be saved from death before they come to God. Dead people don't come, the quickened do. Man by nature is spiritually dead in sin, lost!

That's backwards. We come to God first repenting of our sin as then we are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit through the Baptism of Christ.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Lol if a scripture says that none seeks after God then none seeks after God Rom 3:11. What you want to pretend the scripture does not exist.

Taking one verse out of context of the full meaning leaves one to say that no one seeks Him and we know that is wrong as many seek and find Him as we all have.

It's like saying Jesus wept, John 11:35, if we do not understand why Jesus wept all we would know is that He wept.

Let's look as to why no one seeks Him in the full context.

The full context of Romans Chapter 3 is God's righteousness being upheld as no one is made righteous through the law. Vs. 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God because the righteousness of God is through faith , not following 613 commands.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

As daninthelionsden stated in post 4, we are told many times to seek God.
I believe I already spoke to this with you.

Apparently there is a conflict in the bible....
Apparently God made a mistake.....
or maybe Paul made a mistake.....
or maybe the verse you use means something else?

Because I read all throughout scripture that we are to seek God.

Here are just some verses that state that we are to seek God and that
God is happy with those who seek Him. (and there are many more)

So how do we handle this conflict??

Matthew 6:33 ESV / 2,151 helpful votes ​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV / 1,809 helpful votes ​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17 ESV / 1,755 helpful votes ​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11 ESV / 1,750 helpful votes ​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13 ESV / 1,654 helpful votes ​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Psalm 63:1 ESV / 1,559 helpful votes ​

A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water.

Deuteronomy 4:29 ESV / 1,547 helpful votes ​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8 ESV / 1,327 helpful votes ​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10 ESV / 1,280 helpful votes ​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 14:2 ESV / 1,192 helpful votes ​

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.

Psalm 34:10 ESV / 1,156 helpful votes ​

The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.

Isaiah 55:6-7 ESV / 1,110 helpful votes ​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10 ESV / 1,068 helpful votes ​

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Psalm 119:2 ESV / 1,057 helpful votes ​

Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart,

Lamentations 3:25 ESV / 1,009 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

source: https://www.openbible.info/topics/seeking_god

I agree with the VERY FIRST part of your statement that the "BIBLE SAYS" we are to seek God, many places in scripture.

DOES IT SAY WHEN?

But, we are also told to do a lot of other things, or not do a lot of things, like be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, or do not sin, or give your life to Christ, to or love your neighbor as yourself, and yetttt...How many of those things do we "CHOOSE"to do?

The bible says in John 6:44 where Jesus said, "NO ONE can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws them,"
THAT IS THE WHEN,
and even when they are drawn by God, they still have the FREE CHOICE whether to seek Christ or turn away as most do.
Simply stated, man can seek after Christ, once God has called that person, but not before. GOD SAY"S SO !!!

So there is your UNITY and HARMONY in Gods word and NO CONTRADICTIONS.
YOUR WECOME !!
Seasoned by Grace

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

One must be saved from death before they come to God. Dead people don't come, the quickened do. Man by nature is spiritually dead in sin, lost!

ABSOLUTELY NOT
ALL OF YOU who "LIKED" this statement, Fastfredy0 , and Christ_empowered - LISTEN !

for_his_glory is a "seasoned believer" and didn't become here as an ADMINISTRATOR because she is ignorant of Gods word, and SHE is dead-on correct and you brightfame52 needs to stop spreading these kind of idea's that lead people astray in their faith.
More of you need to start listening to these people who run this forum, and try to learn something and start listening, instead of thinking you can come here and act like you know more than these people who started all this.

I'm sure you mean well, but you are so off base, you'll never find "home plate."

In God's love and mercy
I'm Seasoned by Grace

 

[brightfame52]

ABSOLUTELY NOT
ALL OF YOU who "LIKED" this statement, Fastfredy0 , and Christ_empowered - LISTEN !

for_his_glory is a "seasoned believer" and didn't become here as an ADMINISTRATOR because she is ignorant of Gods word, and SHE is dead-on correct and you brightfame52 needs to stop spreading these kind of idea's that lead people astray in their faith.
More of you need to start listening to these people who run this forum, and try to learn something and start listening, instead of thinking you can come here and act like you know more than these people who started all this.

I'm sure you mean well, but you are so off base, you'll never find "home plate."

In God's love and mercy
I'm Seasoned by Grace

You putting a lot of confidence in the dead.

 

[brightfame52]

Taking one verse out of context of the full meaning leaves one to say that no one seeks Him and we know that is wrong as many seek and find Him as we all have.

It's like saying Jesus wept, John 11:35, if we do not understand why Jesus wept all we would know is that He wept.

Let's look as to why no one seeks Him in the full context.

The full context of Romans Chapter 3 is God's righteousness being upheld as no one is made righteous through the law. Vs. 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God because the righteousness of God is through faith , not following 613 commands.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

Excuse me, nothing is out of context, in fact its in context, man under sin doesnt seek after God, its as plain as the noon day sun Rom 3:9-12

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[brightfame52]

That's backwards. We come to God first repenting of our sin as then we are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit through the Baptism of Christ.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

A dead man repenting ? Please give me a break !

 

[brightfame52]

walpole

According to some, God must zap you. You are busy minding your own business then out of the blue, "ZAP!"

You mean like Jesus did saul of tarsus on the road to damascus ? Acts 9

 

[brightfame52]

That's an oxymoron as you said no one seeks God, but now you are saying if they do. Do they seek or do they not. See how taking one verse out of the full context does not work in most cases.

I said no man by nature, under sin seeks God. However some people God gives them a New Birth, and a New Nature that desires the True God, as a New Babe

 

[PeterJens]

My feeling is that this idea of being born TOTALLY depraved is much of the problem with that group.
This also removes any free will...
So everything about the bible has to change to fit their system.
One gets indoctrinated and then comes to the bible...
There's no way one could read the N.T. and come up with these ideas themselves.

And I've also said many times that if Calvinism is correct, then why even have the atonement?
God was going to save those He wanted to anyway.

Why even have repentance?
God was going to save those He wanted to anyway.

Your post is right on.

If man was totally depraved you would have no hope or good works or love in the world.
What any parent realises babies are born loving and being inquisitive. It is their nature, to be optimistic, to feel safe and they will tell the parent when they do not feel safe, and to discover the world without any understanding.

Guilt for rebelling against the Lord by Israel was set when they reached 20 years old.
So guilt and depravity are not that clear cut.

God bless you

 

[Fastfredy0]

... but you are so off base, you'll never find "home plate."

I disagree.

When I get to heaven and I am judged at the bema seat; and I find out that I gave God too much glory for my salvation, if I I was wrong in this regard and I find out that to some small degree I was the cause of my salvation, I am ready to take that chance.
But for now I state that God chose/elected/predestined/ordained/decreed/adopted/whatever each individual Christian before they existed. .. that He would be the sole/only cause in the determination of my salvation for which He receives the glory, for He shares His glory with no one. (Eph. 1:11, Isa. 42:8)

I believe in monergistic salvation - the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature. He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh -- giving rise to a delight in His Word (God does not share His Glory)
... or in the parlance of another poster: God ZAPS us causing us to believe.

I do not believe in synergistic salvation - that salvation is accomplished through the combined act of God and man. (God does share His Glory) (Aside: I know you do not think you share in the glory of your salvation, but that is the consequence of your doctrine of synergistic salvation IMO)
... or in the parlance of another poster: God does NOT partially ZAP us causing us to chose from indifference (libertarian free will) to believe leading to salvation.

Aside: My thanks to the administrators and the effort they generously donate to spreading/sharing the gospel. Although I don't agree with them on this topic, I do agree with them a large majority of the time.