Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[humble soul]

Personally I respect most ,commentaries from highly articulate and highly educated
Christians. Now that will sound totally snobbish. Carnal even.
But like any job, some people are cut out for this line of work. Im no theologian. That's for sure.
Also I like commentators with fresh insights. That stimulate our minds.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

No one on this forum owns the truth. Some might be closer than others. But who is to judge that?

humble soul
I am my harshest judge and harshest critic of myself, and I will never have all the truth, but when you invest many many thousands of dollars on books and other study tools and well over half your life searching for the truth, whatever it turns out to be, with no agenda or preconceived idea's, but God's truth, and finally come to a place of peace in what you have finally found, I find so much for myself that there is so much complete harmony and unity in God's word, and there are no discrepancies, or contradictions, as many try to convince us there is, and there is no confusion in the bible, only in the minds of the people who are mostly ignorant and bankrupt in their shallow studies and dismal understandings.
Someday I will be judged for every action of mine and every word I speak, and God Himself will be my most harsh judge.
It terrifies me far more than you or anyone else here will ever know, but it's worth the effort and the chance or gamble we take literally, with our own eternity for the sake of others to be here and give people a choice or opinion to consider in their own search, as many of us have searched and struggled ourselves, and hope that maybe what we share can make their search a less of a struggle, and confort them in how they "Strive and endure to the end."

I spent over 40 years learning before coming here and speaking my mind.
I didn't research what others thought to follow a so-called scholar, I researched what God commanded and taught what His truth is, not what someone shallow and bankrupt in the word, passes off as Gods truth, when it's pretty easy to find the one and only truth if your willing to search and bet your life on your own conclusions.
2nd Timothy 3:5, "Having a form of godliness, they deny it's power."
proverbs 14:12, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death."
2nd Timothy 3:3&7, "Always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth."
2nd Thessalonians 2: 10-12, "They never received the love of the truth, so as to be saved.

 

[humble soul]

I always need to be careful that my studies don't make me proud. I will sometimes think I know more than someone else on a topic. Maybe I do.
But in the scheme of things, it's a pinch of salt. Who cares. It's how we treat each other. Not our scholarly level.

 

[brightfame52]

brightfame52
We have people like you showing up here all the time my friend, with their own twisted and confused doctrine of lies, and heresy, and call us all liars and confused, posting, post after post after post, trying to cram their doctrine of lies down our throats, but eventually, they get tired of hearing the truth, and move on to their own destruction.

You see, we were all here before you showed up as a "NEWBIE" not long ago, and believe it or not, we already knew the truth before you were ever born.
So if you came here to "enlighten us" because your the new KNOW IT ALL in town, you've been beat by a thousand others just like you with the exact same false opinions and false doctrines.
You'll disappear. Just give it some time.
My name is OLIGOS

Lol men by nature are Spiritually dead in sin. Call it lies if you like friend.

 

[brightfame52]

We're we not all under sin before we sought God after hearing Him calling us. It's only those who have hardened their hearts that have turned away from God and refuse to hear Him calling them to repentance

All are under sin until they are born again or anew.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you referring me as dead? Please clarify what you said here.

I'm referring to anyone who puts confidence in the flesh.

 

[brightfame52]

We, including you, were all dead in our sins before we heard and answered the call of God to come unto Christ. Not everyone will heed to His call. Many are called, but few are chosen.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

All are naturally dead in sin. One must be born again to not be dead in sin.

 

[brightfame52]

So many want to clean the fish before they catch them. Or in other words you need to make yourself perfect before you come to Christ and accept Him as lord and Savior.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I don't know what you mean here.

 

[JLB]

Lol men by nature are Spiritually dead in sin. Call it lies if you like friend.

Brother, you are very gifted and insightful.


Please use scripture, when you are promoting a certain doctrine. I believe you have much to offer here.


I still don’t understand how you came to the idea that people are first saved, then later on in life they believe in Christ.



Blessings to you, JLB

 

[Randy]

In a recently closed thread, someone was positing that man does not even have the capability of seeking God. Is this an actual belief of some Christians?

Jesus stated those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him. So while no one comes to the Son unless enabled they do have the capability to accept or reject Gods love towards us.

We love the Lord because He first loved us.

 

[Walpole]

Jesus stated those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him. So while no one comes to the Son unless enabled they do have the capability to accept or reject Gods love towards us.

We love the Lord because He first loved us.

I think these images illustrate the difference between what the rest of the Christian world believes verses what Calvinists believe...

Christianity:

Calvinism:

 

[for_his_glory]

We need commentaries too

Commentaries are only as good as what they say lines up with scripture. Many make scripture line up with what they say and this leads to untruths of a twisted word. Everything we present is a commentary on scripture, but yet it's up to the reader to take the scriptures given and study them for themselves asking the Holy Spirit to teach them truth. This is why it is so important to Spiritually discern what others are teaching. I would never ask anyone to believe me, but to take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves as I am not infallible.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm referring to anyone who puts confidence in the flesh.

There is no confidence in the flesh, but only miscued teachings that leads others who are vulnerable and have little knowledge to believe whatever comes out of the pulpit as they have no truth found in them.

 

[for_his_glory]

All are naturally dead in sin. One must be born again to not be dead in sin.

This we can agree on

 

[GodsGrace]

we are born into sin because of The Fall. Jesus offers the way to The Father. 'many are called, few are chosen.' Jesus says that the sheep -know His voice- , which to me indicates that there's an inner calling, which lines up with traditional Calvinism.

OK CE.....
But the question is:

How do we get to be the sheep?

Do we hear His voice because we are the sheep...
OR
Are we the sheep because we hear His voice?

I believe we hear His voice because we are the sheep.
How we got to be the sheep is how Jesus taught:

Jesus said:
If I be lifted up...I will draw ALL MEN to myself....
John 12:32
32"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself".

The question becomes:
1. What does ALL MEN mean?
2. What does DRAW mean?

Do they mean something other than one would gather just from reading this verse?
Do we really need it to be exegeted by a man in order to understand it?

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't know what you mean here.

You are the one who is teaching we must be saved first before we are saved. This makes no sense. How can one be saved first before coming to Christ. No one can save themselves, but only through the free gift of God's grace through faith that is Christ Jesus in whom we believe in can one be saved. Actually when we come to Christ through repentance and accept Him as Lord and Savior are we then become Spiritually born again from above and need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. None of us are saved yet as we have not endured all things yet, but only sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Matthew 24:13; Ephesians 4:30. Jesus taught us in Matthew 24 of those things we need to endure through and also the sign of His coming.

 

[GodsGrace]

The same group of people also believe man is incapable of repenting. He has to be zapped by God first, which is completely backwards!

Ezekiel 18:30-32 ---> “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

God says ---> Repent, rid yourself of offenses and get a new heart and a new spirit.

But this group says ---> That's backwards! Get zapped by God, get a new heart and spirit then you can repent.


Another example...

Acts 11:18 ---> 'When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, 'Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.'”

God says ---> Repentance leads to life.

This group says ---> That's backwards! God zaps you with new life and only then you repent.



If you want to take it a step further, why is repentance even necessary based on this group's theology? After all, God created them depraved. So it's God's fault anyway. It should be God repenting for making them depraved and wicked.

I was not here yesterday (on the forum) so I can't remember if I've answered this already.

What I want to say is that JESUS said that we are to repent.

Matthew 4:17
17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


Jesus is commanding us to repent.

If Jesus is commanding us to repent...it must surely mean that it is UP TO US individually to repent....
and that we are not to wait till God "zaps" us, to put it in your words which are just fine.

I keep asking the reformed this question:
WHY would Jesus keep asking us to do things He should have known we have no power over???
Did God Father neglect to tell God Son the plan of salvation?

BTW,,,,have never received a decent reply.
Maybe because there isn't one.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly. Atonement in Calvinism (penal substitution) is an absurdity. It also makes God out to be nothing more than a pagan volcano god, raging with pent up anger, hatred and rage, who is only appeased by throwing the virgin damsel in distress into the volcano. Jesus plays the part of the damsel in distress and becomes God's personal whipping boy. It's really no different than the pagan gods being appeased.

This stands in stark contrast to the Christian understanding of the act of Christ's offering of Himself to the Father out of love...
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:18)

"...and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

"...how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God." (Heb 9:14)
whereby Christ offers Himself to the Father


Here is a good illustration of the difference:

As far as repentance, that too makes no sense since there is nothing to repent of. If God made you totally depraved, it's his fault. He should be the one repenting for making you that way.

Right on all counts.

The earliest atonement theory was the MORAL INFLUENCE THEORY.
Here is what it states:

One of the earliest theories for the atonement is the Moral Influence theory, which simply taught that Jesus Christ came and died in order to bring about a positive change to humanity. This moral change comes through the teachings of Jesus alongside His example and actions.

Since it's the CC that was around back then...this is what that denomination teaches.
There are also others such as the Christus Victor theory and the Ransom theory.



There are other theories too.

It was the reformation that came up with the idea of the PENAL SUBSTITUTION THEORY.
Here is what it states:

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a development of the Reformation. The Reformers, Specifically Calvin and Luther, took Anselm’s Satisfaction theory and modified it slightly. They added a more legal (or forensic) framework into this notion of the cross as satisfaction. The result is that within Penal Substitution, Jesus Christ dies to satisfy God’s wrath against human sin. Jesus is punished (penal) in the place of sinners (substitution) in order to satisfy the justice of God and the legal demand of God to punish sin. In the light of Jesus’ death God can now forgive the sinner because Jesus Christ has been punished in the place of sinner, in this way meeting the retributive requirements of God’s justice.

There is an interesting article here, with 7 of the theories compactly explained :

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol if a scripture says that none seeks after God then none seeks after God Rom 3:11. What you want to pretend the scripture does not exist.

Brightfame...
PLEASE reply to my post to you instead of making vague remarks that have no meaning.

It seems to me that it is YOU that is pretending some scripture does not exist.

You posted ONE VERSE that seems to be saying that no man seeks after God.
I not only explained that verse to you, but listed at least 10 or so that state that
man DOES seek God.

I asked you what we do with this "conflict".

I await your reply.

 

[GodsGrace]

One must be saved from death before they come to God. Dead people don't come, the quickened do. Man by nature is spiritually dead in sin, lost!

Please show me a verse in the entire bible that states that we are so dead that we cannot come to God.

Man is born spiritually dead.
We all agree on this.

Please show how man in NOT ABLE to come to God unless he is saved first.

If I am saved first....why do I need to be saved?

John 3:7
7Do not marvel that I said to you 'You must be born again'.

Why I Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born again IF
Nicodemus has no control over this? (but he has to wait for God to quicken him, as you put it).



Why do I need to repent?

Matthew 4:17
17....Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Why is Jesus telling us to repent IF He knows that it's not up
to us to repent but up to God Father to "quicken us".
Didn't Jesus know the plan of salvation??