Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[stovebolts]

Every human being has a physical body that contains sin that is passed on by the father: the fathers bloodline

But David’s conundrum is through his GrandMother, a Moabite and not his Grandfather. So already, and by your own reasoning you have to conclude that David has a different idea he is conveying. David is not addressing immaculate conception let alone sin nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have an idea, why dont you start a new thread about the eternal aspect of salvation.

We seem to be discussing it here...
and there wouldn't be too much that I could say about it since I don't believe we're
saved from before the beginning of time.

The N.T. teaches me that we become saved at some point in our lives....

Colossians 3:1-3
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

We HAVE BEEN raised up with Christ...at some point in time...
KEEP SEEKING the things from above....Again proof that we are to seek the things from above
WE HAVE DIED.....we have not been dead forever....but died to ourselves at some point and now our life is hidden with Christ in God.



Colossians 3:6-8
. 6For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8But now you also, put them all aside...

verse 7 and in them YOU ALSO ONCE WALKED....Once we were lost but now we are not because we are not living in sin.
Verse 8 we are to put sinning aside....

We become saved at a point in time.
When we, of our own free will, choose to restore our relationship with God. (the relationship lost in the Garden).

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 5:12 seems clear to me that all men sinned in Adam when he sinned Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It was when Adam sinned, death was passed upon all men !

I agree.
Adam's sin of disobedience caused all men to die physically and spiritually.
All men lost their relationship with God because Adam is the head of mankind and represented
us.

Neither one of your two posts addresses my question, however.

IF persons have been saved from the beginning of time...
why would God have to choose them to be saved at any one point?

 

[GodsGrace]

I can't speak for brightfame52 .. and I don't want you to weaponize anything I say to another general indictment about reformed theology and how horrible because you don't agree/understand something. So, just staying to the question at hand ....
...... we are getting into the question of "what is eternity" and "God (I am) is eternal". We have a clue what that means, but to some degree we cannot understand it. We think of eternity as unlimited time going backwards and forwards but this is not accurate for, if eternity went backwards infinitely we would never get to NOW.
(Aside: Sometimes people use the word "eternity" as in we will live for eternity and this is a different sense of the word)

Please check out the thread: Are children born damned or saved here:

https://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/are-children-born-damned-or-saved.85683/

As to the above...
I don't weaponize what you say.
I'm trying to be honest. When I say that calvinism makes no sense...I truly mean this honestly and not trying to be
mean or debasing. It truly makes no sense to me. I don't think it's horrible because I don't understand it...I think
it's horrible because I DO understand it.

So now we go on to ETERNITY.
I do understand it as unlimited time as you've stated that some believe this.
IOW,,,,eternity has no beginning and it has no end.
Kind of like the person looking at themselves in a mirror, in a mirror.
We can't see it after a few steps forward,,,but it really goes on forever.

And when we say we will live for eternity...it's the same.
It means we will live forever.

But I do agree with you that we don't really grasp what FOREVER means.

Anyways, not sure how deep you want to go, there is a lot of interesting stuff and how being eternal correlates with being immutable (for if something had a beginning then it was created and if something is created it is mutable, etc ... )

Agreed.

but one aspect of being eternal is "God has no succession of moments". God has no beginning, end (Job 36:26), or "succession of moments" in His own being, and He sees all time equally vividly, yet God sees events in time and acts in time. Time does not limit God; time has no effect on God’s knowledge, He cannot learn or forget for that means a change in His perfect knowledge. To God himself, all of his existence is always somehow “present” as He is in all moments of time; He is the cause of time. (Hebrews 11:3).

OK.
I imagine God being on a mountain and He's looking down and is seeing time all at once.
The past, the present and the future are the same to Him.
However, you said God sees events in time and acts in time.
You mean OUR time?

So, back to the question of "how we are predestined to be saved from the beginning of time." I'll take a stab at the part in blue first. God creates time. Anything that is created is not eternal as it has a beginning. Physics confirms this as it tells us that matter and time and space must all occur together: if there is no matter, there can be no space or time either. So, assuming you are still with my meanderings, what do we have:

Agreed again.

Premise 1: God is eternal
Premise 2: Time is not eternal, it has a beginning
Premise 3: God created time
Premise 4: God is all knowing
Premise 5: God is immutable
Conclusion 1: God is said to have "no succession of moments" because he is outside of time having himself created time. Eternity and time are not the same

I believe we agree...I'm not sure what you mean by "succession of moments"...but it sounds like a nuance.

Conclusion 2: God must know who would be saved from the beginning of time because he existed before time and his knowledge does not change.
O.K. ... that is my answer for the part of the question in blue, now for how we are predestined

Agreed again.
God knew from the beginning of time who would be saved and when.

Aside: Predestined means salvation that is planned before it happens in time

This is different from what you stated just above.
To be clear,,,,you mean the SALVATION PLAN...or do you mean
WHO will be saved (by God's decree)?

Premise 1: Before time NOTHING (no thing) existed except God in 3 persons
Premise 2: the Law of Cause and Effect states every Effect has a Cause. This law is true by definition
Premise 3: Being "saved" is an effect (something/someone caused it)
Premise 4: God is immutable and thus his knowledge does not change
Premise 5: ex nihilo nihil fit ... nothing comes from nothing. Nothing is not a thing.

I can agree with most of the above except that you speak of cause and effect.
God created all the physical laws too....
Being saved understood as an effect will require more thought.
Is it an effect...or is it a gift from God as the N.T. teaches? (Ephesians 2:8).

Conclusion: Since God always (eternally and immutably) knew who would be saved and since He knew this before anything existed and since nothing else exists eternally there is but one cause of everything. God knows what will immutably happen in time and that cause can only be God because at one "time so to speak" only God existed. So God must be the cause of all He knows. Thus, we have God as the Cause of everything and knowing everything and thus we answer the question how we are predestined

(Aside: I don't want to explain how God is not the cause of evil so don't go off on that tangent ..... the above is a big enough mouthful. )

You're saying above that God KNEW everything....
I agree.

But why does that mean that He had to CAUSE everything?
Knowing something and causing it are totally different.

What if, instead of God being the cause, He just set up a world system for we humans...
This system consisted of having a place to live a life of our own and a love for God.
He wanted us to love Him and obey Him.
But He didn't want to create robots (sorry 'bout that). He wanted creatures that really loved Him
on their own.

He knew they would not pass the test in the Garden and so, before they even sinned in the Garden, God
made a plan for their salvation. Which we both know ---- Jesus and the cross.
It now makes sense that we would have to CHOOSE to be saved of our own mind and not because
God chooses us to be saved.

If He chooses us...why is the salvation plan even necessary?
If true love is not involved and my choice to love Jesus for His sacrifice...
why even make Jesus to die?

The rest has to wait till tomorrow...I have to leave.

The first statement should be "before" the beginning of time and not "from" the beginning of time. Technically, "before the beginning of time" is a contradiction as "before" is an element of time. But since Eternality is outside of time I use the term "before" anthropomorphicly'
The second statement is misleading. We do not "receive" faith. We are given cause (regeneration) to believe (have faith). Before regeneration our sin nature causes NONE TO SEEK GOD. This answers the third question, "WHY would they ever need to be regenerated?", because regeneration is the cause for our believing.



Not sure I understand ... but in the context of the previous questions .... God has no succession of moments (a difficult concept as being eternal is difficult to understand) so in God's mind we are His adopted children eternally. To accommodate our minds (we learn, we see things in time, we are mutable) God adapts to our understanding and operates in time though He transcends time. (Aside: God is transcendent so any explanation of his transcendent attributes will come up short in some respect)



This is a false premise.
The official reform view point is that babies go to heaven (it's in the confession of faith I read and I can find it if you insist your premise is correct. ). Candid people will say that scripture is not clear. But where ever babies go, God is the one that decides and not the 'free will' of babies, I think even Arminians agree to this.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree.
Adam's sin of disobedience caused all men to die physically and spiritually.
All men lost their relationship with God because Adam is the head of mankind and represented
us.

Neither one of your two posts addresses my question, however.

IF persons have been saved from the beginning of time...
why would God have to choose them to be saved at any one point?

Your question is in my opinion a rabbit trail into another discussion. My point is man by nature doesn't seek after God, the True God of scripture Rom 3:11

 

[GodsGrace]

Your question is in my opinion a rabbit trail into another discussion. My point is man by nature doesn't seek after God, the True God of scripture Rom 3:11

What's a rabbit trail?

Of course my question might lead to another discussion..what's wrong with that?
You only could speak to Romans 3:11 ??

My question deals directly with persons being able to seek God....
Whereas you believe they are not able to seek or choose God.

Here's my question again:
IF persons have been saved from the beginning of time...
why would God have to choose them to be saved at any one point?

This is an important question and shows all the inconsistencies with calvinism.
One incorrect doctrine leads to another, and so on and so on.

Calvin's idea that man does not have free will lead to all the points in
the T.U.L.I.P. doctrines. Each one wrong and not biblical...each one because
he believed man does not have free will, or the ability, to choose God.

God has provided us with answers necessary to understand Him.
What's the answer to the above question of mine?

 

[PeterJens]

Why do you say the age of reason is 20 years old?
That seems very late to me....I was never taught an actual age.

It is an interesting question. I have also wondered at the age, but when Israel rebelled against God, He chose 20 to be the cut off age for those who had to die before Israel could enter Palestine so I took that to mean this was the age of responsibility.

One could argue this is a bit arbitrary, but clearly not for the Lord.

 

[brightfame52]

What's a rabbit trail?

Of course my question might lead to another discussion..what's wrong with that?
You only could speak to Romans 3:11 ??

My question deals directly with persons being able to seek God....
Whereas you believe they are not able to seek or choose God.

Here's my question again:
IF persons have been saved from the beginning of time...
why would God have to choose them to be saved at any one point?

This is an important question and shows all the inconsistencies with calvinism.
One incorrect doctrine leads to another, and so on and so on.

Calvin's idea that man does not have free will lead to all the points in
the T.U.L.I.P. doctrines. Each one wrong and not biblical...each one because
he believed man does not have free will, or the ability, to choose God.

God has provided us with answers necessary to understand Him.
What's the answer to the above question of mine?

You not making sense to me. Man by nature doesnt seek after the True God nor understand Him Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


You want to talk about calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace]

You not making sense to me. Man by nature doesnt seek after the True God nor understand Him Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


You want to talk about calvinism.

Dear brightfame....
ONLY calvinists believe man cannot seek after God.
Only calvinists believe man is born so depraved as to be dead and unable to choose to accept Jesus as his Savior as scripture teaches.
Only calvinists believe man does not have free will.

As I've said many times before...
YOU have created a conflict in the bible writings....
Romans 3:11 is one verse that you keep posting ad nauseam...
I listed MANY verses that state God can be sought and WANTS to be sought.

So YOU have a problem here.
You also have other problems which you are not willing to accept.

You cannot answer my question because you understand the implications perhaps?

HOW does God choose a man to be saved....at the time God decides to REGEN ERATE him...
IF,,,that man has been saved from the beginning of time.

Why would that man need regenerating if he has been saved all along?

Something for you to consider.


Instead, the bible teaches that we are TO SEEK GOD and to CHOOSE GOD in order to be saved.

THIS IS WHAT JESUS STATED we should do to be saved:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Do you think Jesus was just being mean and telling all those around Him: "too bad, but only those I choose will be saved".???


John 5:28-29
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Those who did good deeds will resurrect to life,,,and those that committed evil deeds to a resurrection of judgement/damnation.
Now, IF God predestines everything that will happen....WHY would Jesus speak these words???
Did He not know that it was HE/God that chose who went to heaven and who went to hell???


Much conflict in calvinism.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

IF persons have been saved from the beginning of time...
why would God have to choose them to be saved at any one point?

For me, the answer is because we need a Savior for those under the old covenant to look forward to, or those of us under the new covenant, to look back to, for forgiveness and salvation through Christ's blood on the cross.

nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

For me, that says it all.

God bless you all.
Seasoned by Grace

 

[JLB]

I don’t know the discussion anyone was having on immaculate conception,

It wasn’t a discussion about immaculate conception, t was Fastfredy0 attempting to label me as teaching everyone is born of immaculate conception because I stated that children are innocent; not knowing good from evil.


Its just another logical fallacy from those who promote Calvinist or reformed teachings.



JLB

 

[JLB]

But David’s conundrum is through his GrandMother, a Moabite and not his Grandfather. So already, and by your own reasoning you have to conclude that David has a different idea he is conveying. David is not addressing immaculate conception let alone sin nature.

I never said anything about immaculate conception.

Someone labeled me as promoting that concept.


JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Dear brightfame....
ONLY calvinists believe man cannot seek after God.
Only calvinists believe man is born so depraved as to be dead and unable to choose to accept Jesus as his Savior as scripture teaches.
Only calvinists believe man does not have free will.

As I've said many times before...
YOU have created a conflict in the bible writings....
Romans 3:11 is one verse that you keep posting ad nauseam...
I listed MANY verses that state God can be sought and WANTS to be sought.

So YOU have a problem here.
You also have other problems which you are not willing to accept.

You cannot answer my question because you understand the implications perhaps?

HOW does God choose a man to be saved....at the time God decides to REGEN ERATE him...
IF,,,that man has been saved from the beginning of time.

Why would that man need regenerating if he has been saved all along?

Something for you to consider.


Instead, the bible teaches that we are TO SEEK GOD and to CHOOSE GOD in order to be saved.

THIS IS WHAT JESUS STATED we should do to be saved:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Do you think Jesus was just being mean and telling all those around Him: "too bad, but only those I choose will be saved".???


John 5:28-29
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Those who did good deeds will resurrect to life,,,and those that committed evil deeds to a resurrection of judgement/damnation.
Now, IF God predestines everything that will happen....WHY would Jesus speak these words???
Did He not know that it was HE/God that chose who went to heaven and who went to hell???


Much conflict in calvinism.

Paul believed that the natural man does not seek after God Rom 3:11

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

John 6:44, says by Jesus, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS THEM.
Luke 19:10, "The son of man came to SEEK AND SAVE the lost."

I hated God and everything about Him until He put His calling upon my heart. It was still up to me what to do about His calling. I could have rejected it, but my life was in a terrible place beyond what I could handle as a non-believer, and I found myself calling out to God and searching for His comfort and protection with everything I had.

Yes, before His calling I couldn't seek after God, but nowhere in scripture does it say I can't seek God AFTER he calls me, before I am saved.

For me, being called by God, and then seeking Him out before being saved, was a very powerful step in my process of eventually being led to salvation.
I remember pursuing Him with all I was made of, once I was called by Him, but not yet saved.

It was the greatest crossroads in my life, and praise be to God, with the power of Christ I made the best decision of my life.

Bless us all in His holy name.
My name is Seasoned by Grace

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6:44, says by Jesus, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS THEM.
Luke 19:10, "The son of man came to SEEK AND SAVE the lost."

I hated God and everything about Him until He put His calling upon my heart. It was still up to me what to do about His calling. I could have rejected it, but my life was in a terrible place beyond what I could handle as a non-believer, and I found myself calling out to God and searching for His comfort and protection with everything I had.

Yes, before His calling I couldn't seek after God, but nowhere in scripture does it say I can't seek God AFTER he calls me, before I am saved.

For me, being called by God, and then seeking Him out before being saved, was a very powerful step in my process of eventually being led to salvation.
I remember pursuing Him with all I was made of, once I was called by Him, but not yet saved.

It was the greatest crossroads in my life, and praise be to God, with the power of Christ I made the best decision of my life.

Bless us all in His holy name.
My name is Seasoned by Grace

I think we all feel as you do....
That is because GOD does the initial calling.
God wishes to reveal Himself to man because He would want that all men be saved and not just a few.
1 Timothy 2:4

The question become this:

Does God "call" just a few lucky persons....
or does God call everyone?

Another member on this thread keeps posting Romans 3:11 and stating that it is impossible
for man to seek God. Impossible.
After I posted a whole page of verse that state that man IS TO SEEK GOD,,,and that God expects this.

So the answer to that question becomes very important.

I believe that God call ALL MEN,,,and it is up to them to respond, which is what I believe you're saying.

Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself.
John 12:32

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul believed that the natural man does not seek after God Rom 3:11

Romans 3:11 has been explained to you several times now.
It's easier just to believe Calvin rather than to seek THE TRUTH-


The following verses show that you do not understand Romans 3:11
and that you should SEEK to know the truth......
Paul knew the following verses when he wrote Romans 3:11
Do you believe Paul refused all O.T. knowledge?
I hope you know that he was a scholar and very intelligent...

Matthew 6:33 ESV / 2,158 helpful votes ​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV / 1,814 helpful votes ​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17 ESV / 1,765 helpful votes ​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11 ESV / 1,759 helpful votes ​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13 ESV / 1,662 helpful votes ​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Psalm 63:1 ESV / 1,567 helpful votes ​

A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water.

Deuteronomy 4:29 ESV / 1,552 helpful votes ​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8 ESV / 1,333 helpful votes ​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10 ESV / 1,285 helpful votes ​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 14:2 ESV / 1,198 helpful votes ​

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.

Psalm 34:10 ESV / 1,160 helpful votes ​

The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.

Isaiah 55:6-7 ESV / 1,114 helpful votes ​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10 ESV / 1,067 helpful votes ​

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Psalm 119:2 ESV / 1,062 helpful votes ​

Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart,

Lamentations 3:25 ESV / 1,010 helpful votes ​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

Jeremiah 29:12-14 ESV / 979 helpful votes ​

Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

brightfame52

2 Chronicles 7:14 ESV / 958 helpful votes ​

If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

1 Chronicles 28:9 ESV / 883 helpful votes ​

“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

James 4:8 ESV / 874 helpful votes ​

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Matthew 7:7 ESV / 854 helpful votes ​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Psalm 105:4 ESV / 841 helpful votes ​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Amos 5:4 ESV / 751 helpful votes ​

For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel: “Seek me and live;

Isaiah 55:6 ESV / 748 helpful votes ​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;

Psalm 40:16 ESV / 738 helpful votes ​

But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you; may those who love your salvation say continually, “Great is the Lord!”

Acts 17:27 ESV / 703 helpful votes ​

That they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Job 5:8-9 ESV / 671 helpful votes ​

“As for me, I would seek God, and to God would I commit my cause, who does great things and unsearchable, marvelous things without number:

Zephaniah 2:3 ESV / 625 helpful votes ​

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.

Psalm 10:4 ESV / 613 helpful votes ​

In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, “There is no God.”

Psalm 27:8 ESV / 606 helpful votes ​

You have said, “Seek my face.” My heart says to you, “Your face, Lord, do I seek.”

Psalm 27:4 ESV / 573 helpful votes ​

One thing have I asked of the Lord, that will I seek after: that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in his temple.

Luke 11:9-10 ESV / 569 helpful votes ​

And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Luke 12:31 ESV / 551 helpful votes ​

Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

Hosea 10:12 ESV / 551 helpful votes ​

Sow for yourselves righteousness; reap steadfast love; break up your fallow ground, for it is the time to seek the Lord, that he may come and rain righteousness upon you.

1 Chronicles 22:19 ESV / 543 helpful votes ​

Now set your mind and heart to seek the Lord your God. Arise and build the sanctuary of the Lord God, so that the ark of the covenant of the Lord and the holy vessels of God may be brought into a house built for the name of the Lord.”

James 1:5 ESV / 535 helpful votes ​

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

2 Chronicles 15:2 ESV / 520 helpful votes ​

And he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: The Lord is with you while you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

Matthew 13:44-46 ESV / 516 helpful votes ​

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Psalm 34:4 ESV / 512 helpful votes ​

I sought the Lord, and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears.

Romans 3:11 ESV / 490 helpful votes ​

No one understands; no one seeks for God.

Psalm 119:45 ESV / 487 helpful votes ​

And I shall walk in a wide place, for I have sought your precepts.

Acts 17:26-27 ESV / 484 helpful votes ​

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Matthew 5:6 ESV / 480 helpful votes ​

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Psalm 37:4 ESV / 463 helpful votes ​

Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

2 Chronicles 15:12-15 ESV / 454 helpful votes ​

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. They swore an oath to the Lord with a loud voice and with shouting and with trumpets and with horns. And all Judah rejoiced over the oath, for they had sworn with all their heart and had sought him with their whole desire, and he was found by them, and the Lord gave them rest all around.

Psalm 119:105 ESV / 434 helpful votes ​

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

John 17:3 ESV / 427 helpful votes ​

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Romans 12:1-2 ESV / 424 helpful votes ​

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

For me, the answer is because we need a Savior for those under the old covenant to look forward to, or those of us under the new covenant, to look back to, for forgiveness and salvation through Christ's blood on the cross.

nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

For me, that says it all.

God bless you all.
Seasoned by Grace

Of course...
But the reformed state that those saved have been saved from the beginning of time.

So the question is:
If they are apparently born saved....then why should there be one moment when they BECOME saved..
or regenerated as the reformed would say.

I just can't make sense of the reformed faith....

 

[GodsGrace]

You not making sense to me. Man by nature doesnt seek after the True God nor understand Him Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


You want to talk about calvinism.

Calvin makes sense to you????

 

[JLB]

Paul believed that the natural man does not seek after God Rom 3:11

There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
Romans 3:11

The context is Paul quoting from Psalms 14.

The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one. Psalm 14:1-3



The context is about the fool who says their is no God.

An atheist.






JLB