Ok Then, He used a portion out of that context, and incorporated it into the context of Rom 3. In Rom 3 hes writing about the condition of man under sin and why the need for the redemption in and through Christ. Hence man under sin, jew and gentile alike, do not seek the True God nor understand Him, and thats that. This is nothing new, the same was true of man by nature under the OT, that seen by the fact that he used scripture from the OT to verify the same point.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is man not really capable of seeking God?
- Thread starter Walpole
- Start date
Understood !
stovebolts
WELL MAYBE. In the context here, DEATH means separation from God, and we are all born separated from God. That's why we need a Savior.
Whether Adams sin applies to us or not, the bottom line is we were born sinners needing a Savior. You can choose any reason why that you want, but the proof is Christ's words for dying on the cross, and the entire simple explanation of the entire bible.
To me, how we became sinners is a moot point.
Matthew 23:24 says, "You blind guides! You strain out a gnat, but you swallow a camel."
Too much arguing or discussion on things that have no biblical proof. Mere supposition and speculation.
Christ died for our sins, so we are all sinners and need a Savior as the scripture tells us.
SIMPLE!
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To be called Christian a church needs to believe that Jesus is God,
that He died for us and that He was resurrected bodily.
This requires believing the Trinity.
I'd say that anything else one believes is doctrine.
Are you saying that if we have incorrect doctrine we are lost?
I certainly hope not!
Our faith must be in God and our understanding of Him must be honest.
I don't believe calvinists are lost because the theology makes no sense.
God might be a bit upset with them because they did not recognize His love,
His mercy and His justice --- but we are fragile creatures after all.
Jesus said the road is narrow, but in that very same chapter, He also did say who was not going
to get into heaven...in fact He stated it many times.
Matthew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Those who practice lawlessness will not make it to heaven.
Jesus did not speak of doctrine, but about how we should behave....
Matthew 5:3-9 the beatitudes
He said that we are to be born again...
John 3:3, 5
Born again just means that we have come to know that God is real.....
and if we believe that then we will certainly want to obey Him.
I don't think much else is necessary.
This is why we confess our sins....and continue on our walk toward Him.
I asked a Catholic Monk (a Catholic Monk! VERY conservative) if I could be sure of my salvation...
He said Yes,,,if I'm at the feet of Jesus.
Take courage.
Jesus said He came to bring us an abundant life.
John 10:10
How could it be abundant if we can't even be sure of our salvation?
I agree.
We inherited death...both physical death and spiritual death.
There is no sin where there is no law.....
But children don't know the law...this is why they are innocent.
But they also have the propensity to be mean and bad in their actions.
This comes from the same "place" our sinful actions come from.
Call it the flesh, call it the sin nature, call it what you will.
We all have the ability to sin and, eventually, we are old enough to know
what we are doing toward God's law and at this point we are sinning.
I think there's a slight nuance here, should we call children innocent or not guilty?
What do they say? Because a person is found not guilty...does not mean they are innocent.
I'm kind of hoping you don't ask me to explain this!
wondering
Here's my definition.
Doctrine
(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.
Doctrine is indispensable to Christianity. Christianity does not exist without it. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the value and importance of sound doctrine, sound instruction ( 1 Tim 6:3 ), and a pattern of sound teaching ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). The apostles defended the faithful proclamation of the gospel ( Gal 1:8 ). They formulated Christian faith in doctrinal terms, then called for its preservation. They were adamant about the protection, appropriation, and propagation of doctrine because it contained the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing the truth was and is the only way that a person can come to faith. So the apostles delivered a body of theological truth to the church ( 1 Cor 15:3 ). They encouraged believers to be faithful to that body of information they had heard and received in the beginning ( 1 John 2:7 1 John 2:24 1 John 2:26 ; 3:11 ), that "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints'' (Jude 3). Believers, in general, were instructed to guard the faith, that is, to stand firm in sound doctrine ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). Pastors in particular were admonished to cleave to sound doctrine so that they could be good ministers of the gospel ( 1 Tim 4:6 ).
It's all-inclusive, not separated.
Or to put it simply, doctrine is the sum-total of your entire faith.
Here's my definition.
Doctrine
(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.
Doctrine is indispensable to Christianity. Christianity does not exist without it. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the value and importance of sound doctrine, sound instruction ( 1 Tim 6:3 ), and a pattern of sound teaching ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). The apostles defended the faithful proclamation of the gospel ( Gal 1:8 ). They formulated Christian faith in doctrinal terms, then called for its preservation. They were adamant about the protection, appropriation, and propagation of doctrine because it contained the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing the truth was and is the only way that a person can come to faith. So the apostles delivered a body of theological truth to the church ( 1 Cor 15:3 ). They encouraged believers to be faithful to that body of information they had heard and received in the beginning ( 1 John 2:7 1 John 2:24 1 John 2:26 ; 3:11 ), that "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints'' (Jude 3). Believers, in general, were instructed to guard the faith, that is, to stand firm in sound doctrine ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). Pastors in particular were admonished to cleave to sound doctrine so that they could be good ministers of the gospel ( 1 Tim 4:6 ).
For me, as I stated above, the idea of doctrine isn't separated from the Gospel, as you state above, the doctrine of any church is their entire belief system, or their Gospel.
It's all-inclusive, not separated.
Or to put it simply, doctrine is the sum-total of your entire faith.
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stovebolts
Member
I actually think you did a fine job articulating it. Very well said.
Your OT verses applied to Israel & not to NT believers.
Brother show me where anyone in the New Testament quoted an entire Chapter of the Old Testament to make a point.
Paul used many verses to make his point which is Jews need salvation just as much as Gentiles.
You are the one who has repeatedly taken scripture out of context and have been called out for it.
That’s why you keep quoting one verse, over and over with. No context.
Please stop trying to use the Apostle Paul to validate your practice of cherry picking one verse of scripture to attempt to prop up your man made doctrine.
This practice does not make for teaching sound doctrine.
JLB
Yes man was beautifully and wonderfully created, but has been tainted with sin, a sin nature that dwells in our body.
He formed our spirit within the womb, and did so without sin.
Can you please try to reconcile these two concepts, without the derogatory comments?
Much appreciated.
JLB
Ok.
How did Paul take a passage out of context from Psalm 14 and use it in Romans 3?
What you are trying to do, is apply this verse to all mankind currently, to validate your doctrine that says... were are born again sovereignly by the Holy Spirit, before we hear and believe the Gospel.
Then later on we believe the Gospel because we are already saved; born again, regenerated.
JLB
What was the cause of the death that spread to all men?
Do you believe we are born sinless, with no sin nature in our physical body?
Remember, I believe little children are innocent, until then know good from evil.
I don’t believe children who pass away go to hell.
JLB
Children didn't know the law but their natural head and representative adam did. So God reckons them as having sinned in him. Rom 5:12, all sinned in Adam scripture says!
I have posted the verses that support my belief in this thread, numerous times.
Since Jeff has seen them, I didn’t feel it was necessary to be redundant.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12
This verse shows us that Adam’s sin, and the subsequent death that resulted, spread to all men. The physical body has been tainted with sin; a sin nature that. Is contrary to God.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17
On the other hand, Jesus has taught us about little children, and His view of them.
“Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3-4
Do you believe a little child, who has no concept of salvation, or good and evil, goes to hell if he dies as a little child?
JLB
I have read it, and given you the plain and simple truth.
Here it is again —
Paul lifted nothing out of context. Paul is making a legal argument against those who know the law, showing that Jews need a Savior just as Gentiles do.
What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19
Sandwiched in between these passages is your verse 11.
Conclusion—
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:24
The overarching mindset of the Jew is because they are Abraham’s children they are blessed, which means they (think) they have eternal salvation by natural birth, the very issue Jesus dealt with in Nicodemus.
Do you believe Cornelius, was a man who sought God?
JLB
stovebolts
Member
I can’t reconcile Romans 5 and Psalms 51 in the way you or others do. For me, to try and redact these two sections of scripture goes against the fundamental understanding I hold within each of their overall contextual constructs. For me, to redact those two sections of scripture as a means to primarily support the doctrine of original sin is to abolish those passages. I do understand that others may disagree with my view and I will keep this in mind.
I don’t have a huge problem reconciling these concepts. Please understand that my disagreement is using Psalms 51 and Romans 3 or Romans 5 together to support this concept. There are other ways to get there.
In summary, I hold little issue with reconciling these two concepts. My issue is redacting Romans 5 and Psalms 51 in the manner many do to support those two concepts.
let’s veer off for just a moment and discuss this sin nature. Would you agree that the sin nature is simply to say that we all have the propensity to sin and when given the right opportunity to sin, we will?