Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[brightfame52]

I didn’t say he quoted the entire 14th Psalm.

He certainly quoted more than one verse. Hopefully you can see that?



Paul recounted much of his quoting of the OT scriptures from memory.


For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” Hebrews 4:4-5


He didn’t quote chapter and verse since that concept hadn’t come about yet.



JLB

Ok Then, He used a portion out of that context, and incorporated it into the context of Rom 3. In Rom 3 hes writing about the condition of man under sin and why the need for the redemption in and through Christ. Hence man under sin, jew and gentile alike, do not seek the True God nor understand Him, and thats that. This is nothing new, the same was true of man by nature under the OT, that seen by the fact that he used scripture from the OT to verify the same point.

 

[brightfame52]

Ha, sorry about that. Lol.
Here is my point. Anyone can cherry pick a verse out of its original context and apply any meaning they want to it.

One such example is universalism. While you yourself did not say this, there are many who cherry pick passages and string them together to form a narrative foreign to the native biblical narrative.

Understood !

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Death.... death is what we all receive from Adam.

stovebolts
WELL MAYBE. In the context here, DEATH means separation from God, and we are all born separated from God. That's why we need a Savior.

Whether Adams sin applies to us or not, the bottom line is we were born sinners needing a Savior. You can choose any reason why that you want, but the proof is Christ's words for dying on the cross, and the entire simple explanation of the entire bible.

To me, how we became sinners is a moot point.
Matthew 23:24 says, "You blind guides! You strain out a gnat, but you swallow a camel."
Too much arguing or discussion on things that have no biblical proof. Mere supposition and speculation.
Christ died for our sins, so we are all sinners and need a Savior as the scripture tells us.
SIMPLE!

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
X2 brother.
To me, the reformation doctrine and Calvinism make no sense to me, as again to me, they have major doctrinal belief issue that invalidates God's word, and invalidates salvation God's way.

But unfortunately, the same can be said for most other doctrines of faith today, and for me, most churches nowadays have become a form of the anti-Christ (Against Christ teachings), but not THE ANTI-CHRIST.

Think about this!!

If most Christian churches aren't teaching God's true word anymore, then technically they aren't Christian churches and shouldn't be referred to as a Christian church.
And if the people inside are buying into a false doctrine, then technically they aren't Christians and they are not saved.
Think about it.
And think about Matthew 7:14
"For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

That verse is constantly in my head during my time here or in my studies, and in my prayers, as it TERRIFIES ME to think I could be one of the "FEW."
ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIES ME !!!

Seasoned by Grace

To be called Christian a church needs to believe that Jesus is God,
that He died for us and that He was resurrected bodily.
This requires believing the Trinity.

I'd say that anything else one believes is doctrine.
Are you saying that if we have incorrect doctrine we are lost?
I certainly hope not!

Our faith must be in God and our understanding of Him must be honest.
I don't believe calvinists are lost because the theology makes no sense.
God might be a bit upset with them because they did not recognize His love,
His mercy and His justice --- but we are fragile creatures after all.

Jesus said the road is narrow, but in that very same chapter, He also did say who was not going
to get into heaven...in fact He stated it many times.
Matthew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Those who practice lawlessness will not make it to heaven.

Jesus did not speak of doctrine, but about how we should behave....
Matthew 5:3-9 the beatitudes

He said that we are to be born again...
John 3:3, 5

Born again just means that we have come to know that God is real.....
and if we believe that then we will certainly want to obey Him.

I don't think much else is necessary.
This is why we confess our sins....and continue on our walk toward Him.

I asked a Catholic Monk (a Catholic Monk! VERY conservative) if I could be sure of my salvation...
He said Yes,,,if I'm at the feet of Jesus.

Take courage.
Jesus said He came to bring us an abundant life.
John 10:10
How could it be abundant if we can't even be sure of our salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Death.... death is what we all receive from Adam.
Adam always had the potential to sin. When he committed a particular sin, death was the result.
Paul says that there is no sin without the law. In other words, if the law teaches us what is sinful, can we be held accountable for our ignorance? This is an open ended question.
But i degrees. Adam was made aware of the commandment, and he willfully broke it. Adam had the propensity to sin from the time God gave him the command. it wasn’t a matter of if, but when. Adam had to make a choice. Do I obey God, or do I do my own thing. Moses echos this in Deuteronomy 28. Choose this day either life or death. We all choose death, everyone of us since Adam with the exception of Jesus. We all sin. But we’re not created sinful. We are created innocent and without blemish. We are beautifully and wonderfully created regardless if our conception was an act of sin by our parents, or whether our conception was a shared beauty between our parents. You see, not all sexual acts are pleasing to God. Some sexual acts are sinful. But sex in and of itself is not sinful. Instead, it can be one of the most beautiful and intimate experiences two can experience as one.

I agree.
We inherited death...both physical death and spiritual death.

There is no sin where there is no law.....
But children don't know the law...this is why they are innocent.

But they also have the propensity to be mean and bad in their actions.
This comes from the same "place" our sinful actions come from.
Call it the flesh, call it the sin nature, call it what you will.
We all have the ability to sin and, eventually, we are old enough to know
what we are doing toward God's law and at this point we are sinning.

I think there's a slight nuance here, should we call children innocent or not guilty?
What do they say? Because a person is found not guilty...does not mean they are innocent.

I'm kind of hoping you don't ask me to explain this!

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I'd say that anything else one believes is doctrine.

wondering
What is your definition of "DOCTRINE?

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

wondering
Here's my definition.
Doctrine
(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.

Doctrine is indispensable to Christianity. Christianity does not exist without it. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the value and importance of sound doctrine, sound instruction ( 1 Tim 6:3 ), and a pattern of sound teaching ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). The apostles defended the faithful proclamation of the gospel ( Gal 1:8 ). They formulated Christian faith in doctrinal terms, then called for its preservation. They were adamant about the protection, appropriation, and propagation of doctrine because it contained the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing the truth was and is the only way that a person can come to faith. So the apostles delivered a body of theological truth to the church ( 1 Cor 15:3 ). They encouraged believers to be faithful to that body of information they had heard and received in the beginning ( 1 John 2:7 1 John 2:24 1 John 2:26 ; 3:11 ), that "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints'' (Jude 3). Believers, in general, were instructed to guard the faith, that is, to stand firm in sound doctrine ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). Pastors in particular were admonished to cleave to sound doctrine so that they could be good ministers of the gospel ( 1 Tim 4:6 ).

To be called Christian a church needs to believe that Jesus is God,
that He died for us and that He was resurrected bodily.
This requires believing the Trinity.

I'd say that anything else one believes is doctrine.

For me, as I stated above, the idea of doctrine isn't separated from the Gospel, as you state above, the doctrine of any church is their entire belief system, or their Gospel.
It's all-inclusive, not separated.

Or to put it simply, doctrine is the sum-total of your entire faith.

 

[stovebolts]

I agree.
We inherited death...both physical death and spiritual death.

There is no sin where there is no law.....
But children don't know the law...this is why they are innocent.

But they also have the propensity to be mean and bad in their actions.
This comes from the same "place" our sinful actions come from.
Call it the flesh, call it the sin nature, call it what you will.
We all have the ability to sin and, eventually, we are old enough to know
what we are doing toward God's law and at this point we are sinning.

I think there's a slight nuance here, should we call children innocent or not guilty?
What do they say? Because a person is found not guilty...does not mean they are innocent.

I'm kind of hoping you don't ask me to explain this!

I actually think you did a fine job articulating it. Very well said.

 

[OzSpen]

brightfame52

2 Chronicles 7:14 ESV / 958 helpful votes ​

If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

1 Chronicles 28:9 ESV / 883 helpful votes ​

“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

James 4:8 ESV / 874 helpful votes ​

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Matthew 7:7 ESV / 854 helpful votes ​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Psalm 105:4 ESV / 841 helpful votes ​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Amos 5:4 ESV / 751 helpful votes ​

For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel: “Seek me and live;

Isaiah 55:6 ESV / 748 helpful votes ​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;

Psalm 40:16 ESV / 738 helpful votes ​

But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you; may those who love your salvation say continually, “Great is the Lord!”

Acts 17:27 ESV / 703 helpful votes ​

That they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Job 5:8-9 ESV / 671 helpful votes ​

“As for me, I would seek God, and to God would I commit my cause, who does great things and unsearchable, marvelous things without number:

Zephaniah 2:3 ESV / 625 helpful votes ​

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.

Psalm 10:4 ESV / 613 helpful votes ​

In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, “There is no God.”

Psalm 27:8 ESV / 606 helpful votes ​

You have said, “Seek my face.” My heart says to you, “Your face, Lord, do I seek.”

Psalm 27:4 ESV / 573 helpful votes ​

One thing have I asked of the Lord, that will I seek after: that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in his temple.

Luke 11:9-10 ESV / 569 helpful votes ​

And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Luke 12:31 ESV / 551 helpful votes ​

Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

Hosea 10:12 ESV / 551 helpful votes ​

Sow for yourselves righteousness; reap steadfast love; break up your fallow ground, for it is the time to seek the Lord, that he may come and rain righteousness upon you.

1 Chronicles 22:19 ESV / 543 helpful votes ​

Now set your mind and heart to seek the Lord your God. Arise and build the sanctuary of the Lord God, so that the ark of the covenant of the Lord and the holy vessels of God may be brought into a house built for the name of the Lord.”

James 1:5 ESV / 535 helpful votes ​

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

2 Chronicles 15:2 ESV / 520 helpful votes ​

And he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: The Lord is with you while you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

Matthew 13:44-46 ESV / 516 helpful votes ​

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Psalm 34:4 ESV / 512 helpful votes ​

I sought the Lord, and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears.

Romans 3:11 ESV / 490 helpful votes ​

No one understands; no one seeks for God.

Psalm 119:45 ESV / 487 helpful votes ​

And I shall walk in a wide place, for I have sought your precepts.

Acts 17:26-27 ESV / 484 helpful votes ​

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Matthew 5:6 ESV / 480 helpful votes ​

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Psalm 37:4 ESV / 463 helpful votes ​

Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

2 Chronicles 15:12-15 ESV / 454 helpful votes ​

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. They swore an oath to the Lord with a loud voice and with shouting and with trumpets and with horns. And all Judah rejoiced over the oath, for they had sworn with all their heart and had sought him with their whole desire, and he was found by them, and the Lord gave them rest all around.

Psalm 119:105 ESV / 434 helpful votes ​

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

John 17:3 ESV / 427 helpful votes ​

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Romans 12:1-2 ESV / 424 helpful votes ​

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

​

Your OT verses applied to Israel & not to NT believers.

 

[JLB]

jlb


Thats not true, He didnt quote the entire 14th Psalm in Rom 3. Show where he did sir.

Brother show me where anyone in the New Testament quoted an entire Chapter of the Old Testament to make a point.

Paul used many verses to make his point which is Jews need salvation just as much as Gentiles.


You are the one who has repeatedly taken scripture out of context and have been called out for it.


That’s why you keep quoting one verse, over and over with. No context.


Please stop trying to use the Apostle Paul to validate your practice of cherry picking one verse of scripture to attempt to prop up your man made doctrine.


This practice does not make for teaching sound doctrine.




JLB

 

[JLB]

It is extremely poor exegesis to redact these two verses together. I would go as far as to say it’s an abomination of scripture.

I don’t believe we are utterly corrupt at conception.
Neither do I. I believe we are beautifully and wonderfully created.

Yes man was beautifully and wonderfully created, but has been tainted with sin, a sin nature that dwells in our body.


He formed our spirit within the womb, and did so without sin.


Can you please try to reconcile these two concepts, without the derogatory comments?


Much appreciated.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Ok Then, He used a portion out of that context, and incorporated it into the context of Rom 3.

Ok.


How did Paul take a passage out of context from Psalm 14 and use it in Romans 3?


What you are trying to do, is apply this verse to all mankind currently, to validate your doctrine that says... were are born again sovereignly by the Holy Spirit, before we hear and believe the Gospel.


Then later on we believe the Gospel because we are already saved; born again, regenerated.




JLB

 

[JLB]

We know death was passed down from Adam. Is this the sin your speaking of?

What was the cause of the death that spread to all men?


Do you believe we are born sinless, with no sin nature in our physical body?


Remember, I believe little children are innocent, until then know good from evil.


I don’t believe children who pass away go to hell.




JLB

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

What was the cause of the death that spread to all men?


Do you believe we are born sinless, with no sin nature in our physical body?


Remember, I believe little children are innocent, until then know good from evil.


I don’t believe children who pass away go to hell.




JLB

JLB
There's a lot of I believes in this statement, but I see no verses to back it up as you expect from others.

 

[brightfame52]

Ok.


How did Paul take a passage out of context from Psalm 14 and use it in Romans 3?


What you are trying to do, is apply this verse to all mankind currently, to validate your doctrine that says... were are born again sovereignly by the Holy Spirit, before we hear and believe the Gospel.


Then later on we believe the Gospel because we are already saved; born again, regenerated.




JLB

How? Sir it's so plain on how. He took it from Ps 14 and incorporated it into Rom 3! Just read.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree.
We inherited death...both physical death and spiritual death.

There is no sin where there is no law.....
But children don't know the law...this is why they are innocent.

But they also have the propensity to be mean and bad in their actions.
This comes from the same "place" our sinful actions come from.
Call it the flesh, call it the sin nature, call it what you will.
We all have the ability to sin and, eventually, we are old enough to know
what we are doing toward God's law and at this point we are sinning.

I think there's a slight nuance here, should we call children innocent or not guilty?
What do they say? Because a person is found not guilty...does not mean they are innocent.

I'm kind of hoping you don't ask me to explain this!

Children didn't know the law but their natural head and representative adam did. So God reckons them as having sinned in him. Rom 5:12, all sinned in Adam scripture says!

 

[JLB]

JLB
There's a lot of I believes in this statement, but I see no verses to back it up as you expect from others.

I have posted the verses that support my belief in this thread, numerous times.

Since Jeff has seen them, I didn’t feel it was necessary to be redundant.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12


This verse shows us that Adam’s sin, and the subsequent death that resulted, spread to all men. The physical body has been tainted with sin; a sin nature that. Is contrary to God.

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17



On the other hand, Jesus has taught us about little children, and His view of them.


“Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3-4



Do you believe a little child, who has no concept of salvation, or good and evil, goes to hell if he dies as a little child?




JLB

 

[JLB]

How? Sir it's so plain on how. He took it from Ps 14 and incorporated it into Rom 3! Just read.

I have read it, and given you the plain and simple truth.


Here it is again —


Paul lifted nothing out of context. Paul is making a legal argument against those who know the law, showing that Jews need a Savior just as Gentiles do.


What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2


Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19


Sandwiched in between these passages is your verse 11.



Conclusion—

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:24


The overarching mindset of the Jew is because they are Abraham’s children they are blessed, which means they (think) they have eternal salvation by natural birth, the very issue Jesus dealt with in Nicodemus.



Do you believe Cornelius, was a man who sought God?




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Can you please try to reconcile these two concepts, without the derogatory comments?

I can’t reconcile Romans 5 and Psalms 51 in the way you or others do. For me, to try and redact these two sections of scripture goes against the fundamental understanding I hold within each of their overall contextual constructs. For me, to redact those two sections of scripture as a means to primarily support the doctrine of original sin is to abolish those passages. I do understand that others may disagree with my view and I will keep this in mind.

es man was beautifully and wonderfully created, but has been tainted with sin, a sin nature that dwells in our body.


He formed our spirit within the womb, and did so without sin.

I don’t have a huge problem reconciling these concepts. Please understand that my disagreement is using Psalms 51 and Romans 3 or Romans 5 together to support this concept. There are other ways to get there.

In summary, I hold little issue with reconciling these two concepts. My issue is redacting Romans 5 and Psalms 51 in the manner many do to support those two concepts.

let’s veer off for just a moment and discuss this sin nature. Would you agree that the sin nature is simply to say that we all have the propensity to sin and when given the right opportunity to sin, we will?

 

[brightfame52]

I have read it, and given you the plain and simple truth.


Here it is again —


Paul lifted nothing out of context. Paul is making a legal argument against those who know the law, showing that Jews need a Savior just as Gentiles do.


What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2


Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19


Sandwiched in between these passages is your verse 11.



Conclusion—

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:24


The overarching mindset of the Jew is because they are Abraham’s children they are blessed, which means they (think) they have eternal salvation by natural birth, the very issue Jesus dealt with in Nicodemus.



Do you believe Cornelius, was a man who sought God?




JLB

Okay. Its obvious you not understanding me. Its crystal clear to me Paul used scripture from the OT to make a point in the NT.