Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[stovebolts]

What was the cause of the death that spread to all men?

It was not Eves sin. Remember, Eve sinned first because she was beguiled. So it wasn’t the first act of sin which brought death into the world. Instead, it was the willful disobedience of Adam which caused death to enter the world.

Do you believe we are born sinless, with no sin nature in our physical body?

This is where I have a feeling we will split hairs.

I believe we are both created and born sinless. However, we also have a sin nature. I understand that death came as a result of Adams willful disobedience, but I also understand that we are effected by the sins of others. For example, stores experience shoplifting. As a result, good honest people pay slightly more for their goods to offset the loss from theft. Spring boarding off this concept, the world just wasn’t the same after Adams disobedience.

Adam was created with the propensity to sin. It wasn’t a matter of if, but when.

Remember, I believe little children are innocent, until then know good from evil.

As do I. There comes a point where we understand enough truth to decide if we choose life or death. Adam understood his disobedience was a choice of death.
My brother was a well to do heroin dealer and was addicted to OxyContin. He sold heroin to support his OxyContin habit to the tune of 10k a month in profits. Less than a year before his death he told Mom, “I’m either going to die or go to prison”. Simply put, he choose death. He understood the truth and instead of choosing life, he choose death. His sin is still being felt and still impacts our family.

In this same way, Adam was willfully disobedient. Adam willfully choose death and we are experiencing the impact of his willfully disobedience to this day.

I don’t believe children who pass away go to hell.

Neither do I.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
Here's my definition.
Doctrine
(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.

Doctrine is indispensable to Christianity. Christianity does not exist without it. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the value and importance of sound doctrine, sound instruction ( 1 Tim 6:3 ), and a pattern of sound teaching ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). The apostles defended the faithful proclamation of the gospel ( Gal 1:8 ). They formulated Christian faith in doctrinal terms, then called for its preservation. They were adamant about the protection, appropriation, and propagation of doctrine because it contained the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing the truth was and is the only way that a person can come to faith. So the apostles delivered a body of theological truth to the church ( 1 Cor 15:3 ). They encouraged believers to be faithful to that body of information they had heard and received in the beginning ( 1 John 2:7 1 John 2:24 1 John 2:26 ; 3:11 ), that "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints'' (Jude 3). Believers, in general, were instructed to guard the faith, that is, to stand firm in sound doctrine ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). Pastors in particular were admonished to cleave to sound doctrine so that they could be good ministers of the gospel ( 1 Tim 4:6 ).

For me, as I stated above, the idea of doctrine isn't separated from the Gospel, as you state above, the doctrine of any church is their entire belief system, or their Gospel.
It's all-inclusive, not separated.

Or to put it simply, doctrine is the sum-total of your entire faith.

Hey SbG...

My answer would have been more simple than the description you posted of the word DOCTRINE.
I would have said that it is any teaching of a church/denomination.

I separate teachings of a church from what the gospel tells me.
To me a doctrine that is taught at any given denomination might be truth and it might not.

If I believe an incorrect doctrine...am I doomed?
Is it my responsibility if I was not taught correctly?
Is it my responsibility if one of the writers of the N.T. did not make something perfectly clear?

In some verses it sounds like I could never lose my salvation,,,no matter what.
In some verses it sounds like I have to obey and be careful not to lose it.
So which is it?

I believe God will judge us on the condition of our heart and He knows what we did and if it was the best we could do and if it was what He had in mind for us.
Ephesians 2:10
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In 1 Timothy Paul speaks about behavior we should follow (chapters 5, 6).
In chapter 6:3 he says that if anyone advocates a different doctrine, he understands nothing.

Paul is speaking of our behavior and how it is to be in keeping with the doctrine (teachings) of Christ.
For instance,,,the CC teaches some doctrine I cannot agree with. Does this damn me?

 

[GodsGrace]

I actually think you did a fine job articulating it. Very well said.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your OT verses applied to Israel & not to NT believers.

Oz,
A lot of the O.T. does not apply to us....
but don't you believe that some concepts are?

We're speaking here about the concept of seeking God...
Is man capable of seeking God....or is it impossible for man to seek God?

In the O.T. we have many verses that say that we are OBLIGATED to seek God,
and/or that we should.

This follows through into the N.T.

I just copied and pasted as much as I could to show @brighfame that he cannot take
Romans 3:11 and disregard all the passages that say that God does expect man to seek Him.

This is the only reason I posted all those verses. I don't really ever do this.

 

[brightfame52]

stoveb

In this same way, Adam was willfully disobedient. Adam willfully choose death and we are experiencing the impact of his willfully disobedience to this day.

So you dont believe in the federal headship of Adam, meaning he stood as the representative of all who was in the seed of his loins, so much so, when he sinned God reckoned that all his seed sinned in him, hence Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Meaning all who adam represented have sinned, when he as one sinned.

 

[brightfame52]

Oz,
A lot of the O.T. does not apply to us....
but don't you believe that some concepts are?

We're speaking here about the concept of seeking God...
Is man capable of seeking God....or is it impossible for man to seek God?

In the O.T. we have many verses that say that we are OBLIGATED to seek God,
and/or that we should.

This follows through into the N.T.

I just copied and pasted as much as I could to show @brighfame that he cannot take
Romans 3:11 and disregard all the passages that say that God does expect man to seek Him.

This is the only reason I posted all those verses. I don't really ever do this.

You are misrepresenting what I have stated, I have said, all men by nature, under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11. Once a person has been born again, quickened, they seek God. So when we hear of people seeking God in scripture, thats a indication they have been born again, and given a new nature and propensities that seeks after the True God.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

wondering
I think sometimes we spend too much time trying to convince others to believe exactly the same way we do on every point.
I see that happening in churches and all kinds of bible groups.
I've been guilty of that in the past myself, and am working on moving towards just sharing my opinion to be accepted or rejected. We are all in different places in our faith, on this "narrow road" to eternal life, and God is teaching me MORE GRACE and acceptance of others for their choices. I won't be judging anyone on judgmentill be be standing alone day, so I have to remember my place in God's grand scheme of things, and just share in LOVE, without any expectations.

As you said, God knows our hearts, and praise be to God in some areas there is "freedom" to believe and live according to what our hearts and head and the Holy Spirit leads us to understand, not what others WANT US to believe, as we grow and change and mature in our faith.

In the end, we will hopefully stand before Christ at the "bema seat judgment", and our hearts and all we were will speak volumes of love and kindness, and living in His truth.

After 43 years of study and searching, my faith continues to evolve, and my beliefs continue to be modified as God through my continuing studies, brings me to new levels of understanding, now in the MEAT of His word, no longer feeding on the MILK.

 

[GodsGrace]

Children didn't know the law but their natural head and representative adam did. So God reckons them as having sinned in him. Rom 5:12, all sinned in Adam scripture says!

So you believe that God holds us responsible for the sin of Adam?
Does God hold YOU responsible for your father/mother's sin?

Does the bible teach that we are responsible for others sins?
Will Jesus not judge us for our own sins?

Deuteronomy 24:16
“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are misrepresenting what I have stated, I have said, all men by nature, under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11. Once a person has been born again, quickened, they seek God. So when we hear of people seeking God in scripture, thats a indication they have been born again, and given a new nature and propensities that seeks after the True God.

Please show me in what post you've stated the above to me.
All you've done is quote Romans 3:11 ad nauseam.

YOUR premise is that MAN IS UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

What does Romans 3:11 state:
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Your premise, all along, has been that there is non who seeks for God.

I've told you a few times that YOU have created a conflict in God's word because
you insist that there is none who seeks God after I posted MANY verses that state
that God EXPECTS us to seek Him.

I have NOT misrepresented you.

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

So you believe that God holds us responsible for the sin of Adam?

To God, Adams sin was the sin of all whom he represented, his seed. Thats why when he sinned, God declared all had sinned Rom 5:12

 

[JLB]

Would you agree that the sin nature is simply to say that we all have the propensity to sin and when given the right opportunity to sin, we will?

We all have sin, a sin nature, the law of sin, the principle of sin, or whatever you want to call it that dwells in our flesh, our physical body.

The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life are the primary constructs of this nature.


I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Please show me in what post you've stated the above to me.
All you've done is quote Romans 3:11 ad nauseam.

YOUR premise is that MAN IS UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

What does Romans 3:11 state:
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Your premise, all along, has been that there is non who seeks for God.

I've told you a few times that YOU have created a conflict in God's word because
you insist that there is none who seeks God after I posted MANY verses that state
that God EXPECTS us to seek Him.

I have NOT misrepresented you.

You doing it again. I said men naturally born under sin, dont seek after God Rom 3:9-11 ! Thats not my word but Gods
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The word under is important here is prep hypo:

metaphorically, of the efficient cause, as that under the power of

to be under, i. e. subject to the power of, any person or thing: Romans 3:9

Man naturally is under the power of sin until Christ liberates them

Jn 8:34-36

4 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[JLB]

It was not Eves sin. Remember, Eve sinned first because she was beguiled. So it wasn’t the first act of sin which brought death into the world. Instead, it was the willful disobedience of Adam which caused death to enter the world

The human race is determined by the male. The seed of the man determines the genetic bloodline, not the woman.

In addition, Adam was created first and had authority so the respinsibility is on him.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Yes all are under sin.


Did Cornelius seek after God before he was saved?

 

[stovebolts]

We all have sin, a sin nature, the law of sin, the principle of sin, or whatever you want to call it that dwells in our flesh, our physical body.

I agree

The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life are the primary constructs of this nature.

I agree
Genesis 3:4-6
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Do you think the traits you described above describe either Adams or Eves traits in the above verses?

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23

While I believe Paul is talking about the Sinai covenant, I do see this principle being applied to both Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:4-6

I am open to change my view on sin nature, but I’ll need to get past the idea that Adam and Eve didn’t have a sin nature.

Here is my thought. Adam and Eve had the propensity to sin the moment God gave the commandment (pre sin). This is simply to say they had a choice. They could do things Gods way, or they could go their own way.
Don’t we have that same choice?

 

[brightfame52]

Yes all are under sin.


Did Cornelius seek after God before he was saved?

I already stated, if anyone sought after the True God its because they have been born anew, are no longer under the power of sin. I believe Cornelius was born again because he had a heart that feared God and worked righteousness which man by nature under sin does not do.

Acts 10:2,34-35
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

But man by nature doesnt fear God scripture says Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[stovebolts]

The human race is determined by the male. The seed of the man determines the genetic bloodline, not the woman.

?? How do you come to that conclusion?
Eve is called the Mother of all living.
Genesis 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

In addition, Adam was created first and had authority so the respinsibility is on him.

I think it has to do more with Adams behavior. Eve was deceived. Adam willfully disobeyed.

 

[JLB]

? How do you come to that conclusion?
Eve is called the Mother of all living.
Genesis 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

Yes Eve is the mother.

Doesn't change the fact that the bloodline is determined by the sperm of the male.

Thats why Jesus was born of a virgin, so His physical body would be sinless, and His blood pure and undefiled.



JLB

 

[daninthelionsden]

?? How do you come to that conclusion?
Eve is called the Mother of all living.
Genesis 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.


I think it has to do more with Adams behavior. Eve was deceived. Adam willfully disobeyed.

If I remember correctly, according to the Jews, it is the Jewish mother that determines whether one is Jewish and not the Father. Speaking of bloodline of course.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,
A lot of the O.T. does not apply to us....
but don't you believe that some concepts are?

We're speaking here about the concept of seeking God...
Is man capable of seeking God....or is it impossible for man to seek God?

In the O.T. we have many verses that say that we are OBLIGATED to seek God,
and/or that we should.

This follows through into the N.T.

I just copied and pasted as much as I could to show @brighfame that he cannot take
Romans 3:11 and disregard all the passages that say that God does expect man to seek Him.

This is the only reason I posted all those verses. I don't really ever do this.

wondering,

Some concepts from OT apply, especially Psalms, Proverbs, prophetic Scriptures and the Book of Origins (Genesis).

This is an excellent article to answer your question - except for one missing point: https://www.gotquestions.org/seeks-God.html

What does it mean that no one seeks God? | GotQuestions.org​

Sadly, this article misses one important verse and that's John 12:32 which states that ALL are drawn to Christ.

Oz