Is Matthew 24:34 grounds for skepticism?

[Wheat Field]

C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are In heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"

I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?

 

[miamited]

Presumably the temple needs to be rebuilt before the Dome of the Rock can be considered in such a way?

Why? It is still called the Temple Mount. So it is still considered to be the place of the temple. We're going to have to work on understanding what God meant by saying 'on a wing of the temple'.

Surely the specifics Daniel 11:31 is germane?
“Forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation”

Yes, that would also infer that it is speaking more of the area of the temple, rather than some actual standing temple.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Wheat Field]

Why? It is still called the Temple Mount. So it is still considered to be the place of the temple. We're going to have to work on understanding what God meant by saying 'on a wing of the temple'.
Yes, that would also infer that it is speaking more of the area of the temple, rather than some actual standing temple.

God bless,
Ted

If Jesus was referring to the generation that saw the 'abomination that causes desolation' - that they would not pass away till all was fulfilled - then does this not exclude the Dome of the Rock which was originally built in the 7th century AD?

 

[miamited]

If Jesus was referring to the generation that saw the 'abomination that causes desolation' - that they would not pass away till all was fulfilled - then does this not exclude the Dome of the Rock which was originally built in the 7th century AD?

Hi Wheat Field

I don't think so. As I've said, the prophecy ends with 'all' these things happening. So, while the Dome of the Rock may well be what is referred to as the abomination on a wing of the temple, it isn't 'all' of the prophetic events that Jesus mentioned. So, one understanding would be when the last of the list of prophesied events comes to fulfillment, then that generation shall not pass away until the end that is decreed.

However, as regards this specific issue of the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel wrote:
"...then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation”

Then they shall place there the abomination of desolation. I don't see any reference whereby we can say that the placement of this 'abomination of desolation' has some specific time element as to its being placed where it is. So the Dome of the Rock was placed on the temple mount in 690 A.D.

"And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator”

Again no time given as to 'when' the abomination will be placed on the temple mount, but that it will stand until the decreed destruction is poured out on the 'desolator'. So no, I don't see that the Scriptures makes clear that the Dome of the Rock would have to be built when the temple is actually standing, if God understands that piece of land to be the Holy mount on which His temple was standing. And it seems to be something that may stand for awhile, since it says that it will be on the wing of the temple until the decreed destruction.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Wheat Field]

Hi Wheat Field

I don't think so. As I've said, the prophecy ends with 'all' these things happening. So, while the Dome of the Rock may well be what is referred to as the abomination on a wing of the temple, it isn't 'all' of the prophetic events that Jesus mentioned. So, one understanding would be when the last of the list of prophesied events comes to fulfillment, then that generation shall not pass away until the end that is decreed.

God bless,
Ted

I'm not following you Ted. In Matthew 24 we read:

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equalled again.


So upon seeing the abomination, Jesus tells Christians in Israel to flee - immediately; that there will be great distress that will never be equalled again.

 

[miamited]

Hi Wheat Field

then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation”

That's right, "when they see standing in the holy place the abomination THAT CAUSES the desolation. In 70 A.D. the abomination THAT CAUSES the desolation was standing in the Holy Place and overran all of Israel and destroyed the temple to its very foundation. That was the seeing of the abomination THAT CAUSES desolation. Then Jesus warned that all of Judea flee to the hills, which they pretty much did and for some 1900 years, had no homeland. So this isn't about the end of the age. But the disciples had asked what would be the signs of his coming and of the end of the age. The desolation of Israel had come upon them. And yes, there were many standing there listening to his words that were alive 40 years later.

But that isn't the end of the list of things that Jesus said was going to happen to bring about the final end of this age. Remember, there were three questions. When was the temple going to be destroyed was just answered. But remember also that the abomination that causes desolation is still there and still causing desolation. "They shall PLACE THERE the abomination of desolation". There's an endpoint to that time yet to come. There is also an abomination yet to come on a wing of the temple. I believe there's good reason to see that as representing the Dome of the Rock. Its proximity to the actual temple mount would certainly be seen as a 'wing of the temple'. And the people to come, those who overran Jerusalem are the same people, by lineage, who placed it there in 690 A.D.

The Roman rule of Israel ended in 70 CE, after the Siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple. Palestine was delivered to the Muslims on August 20, 636, with only Jerusalem and Caesarea holding out. Jerusalem surrendered to the Muslims in 638, and Caesarea surrendered in October 640, putting Palestine and all of Syria in Muslim hands.

So, the people to come weren't the Romans. The people to come were the Arab nations. They built the Dome of the Rock on a wing of the Temple. Now we wait for the final destruction that has been decreed upon them.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Wheat Field

Thank you for getting in on this discussion. I am actually revising my own understanding here just a bit. I too, had tried to figure out 'who' the people were that Jesus was referring to as 'that generation' that he said would not pass away. As you may have noticed coming in here I was leaning towards it meaning some future generation to come. But after writing the above post, and I absolutely have to give the Holy Spirit credit here, it's now crystal clear that Jesus was referring to the people who were standing around him as he spoke those words. Just as his claim that those who are in Judea should flee, was to those same people. And it is speaking of the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. But all of those warnings were concerning only the question of the destruction of the temple that the disciples had asked him about.

Then the people who are to come, which history says were the neighboring Arab nations and not Rome. At that point Rome began its decline and eventually ended up just being a city in Italy. But the Romans never again established garrisons or taxed the people of Israel. The actual land was just slowly encroached upon by the neighboring nations. So the people who are to come are the Arabs and the Arabs built the abomination that causes desolation on a wing of the temple. It still stands. In fact, just before the Dome of the Rock was built, was when Palestine was officially given over the land of Israel. Now there is another end that Jesus is speaking of. The end of the age. That end will see the completion of the rest of Jesus' words to us as to what would be happening.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

I do think this is perhaps the only way that Jesus' integrity can hold. A cursory reading of this chapter (same with Luke 21 and Mark 13) seems to result in the immediate charge that Jesus was clearly wrong. It all comes down to the question of to whom was Jesus referring to in v.34. The skeptic immediately says that it's the generation that was alive then - and specifically the disciples (either all or some - though Mark mentions Peter, James John and Andrew). After all, it is the disciples that asked him about the temple and the end of the world and Jesus is replying to them.

If we focus in on what Jesus says in Matthew 24:15-34, then it does seem that he isn't necessarily specifically addressing the disciples anymore, but any follower of him at any time now or in the future - and specifically those that live in Israel:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand). Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto YOU, THIS generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I'm still not totally convinced by this take on Jesus' words. It is favourable to Christianity, but it's hard to see it clearly. Obviously, with Jesus talking about a future event then it's possible that language isn't able to fully convey precisely what was intended.

What do you think?

First thing we have to remember as when we read the letters of each book from Genesis to Revelation it was mainly written in the times of the Israelite, but also future events up to the time of Christ return. To the Isralite the abomination came in 70AD, (their generation), but we will see history repeat itself when the son of perdition takes its seat in Jerusalem, (future generation), but this time it will be a NWO of globalization throughout the whole world as many will take the mark of this beast.

So, from that generation of the first 12 Disciples that Jesus literally spoke to verbally on the Mount of Olives, many other generations followed after them and will continue up to the return of Christ, in which will be the last generation, will hear the same teachings that Jesus taught the first generation that we read in Matthew 24. That generation saw the destruction of the Temple in 70AD as well as other prophecies Jesus spoke of, but the generations after them have and will see more of what Jesus said needs to come before He returns on the last day.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

As far as I know, the abomination that causes desolation is defined in Daniel and Jesus names him when he mentions uses this phrase.

Daniel 9:27
“He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator”

Daniel 11:31
“Forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation”

We know that Antiochus IV Epiphanies put an image of Zeus in the Temple in 167 B.C. which, I believe, only partially fulfilled Daniel's prophecy.

Many I ask why you define the abomination that causes desolation as the 'rejection of God's Word'?

Because rejecting what Christ taught is the abomination that causes desolation.

 

[Wheat Field]

Because rejecting what Christ taught is the abomination that causes desolation.

Where in scripture is it defined that way please?

 

[for_his_glory]

Presumably the temple needs to be rebuilt before the Dome of the Rock can be considered in such a way?

The cornerstone for the new Temple was brought to Jerusalem on May 21, 2009 and still remains on the street. "Jerusalem Day" in 1967 was to celebrate the liberation of the Temple Mount, but there is a problem there as the Doom of the Rock sits on the Temple Mount. Baruch Ben-Yosel , chairman of the Movement to Restore the Temple, made it clear that the Temple had to be built in the exact spot where the Dome of the Rock sits.

There will never be a third Temple built by hands, Acts 7:48; Acts 17:24. When the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom after Jesus gave up the ghost, Matthew 27:50, 51, this symbolized that the sacrifice of Jesus and the shedding of his blood was now made for the atonement of sin and that all, Jew and Gentile, can come before Him as He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6.

There is no more veil for the Priest to enter into the Holy of Holies once a year to make atonement for Israel's sin nor is there any more animal sacrifices as we are no longer under the Old Covenant nor the preaching of the law, but are under a new and better covenant of Gods grace through Christ Jesus as our High Priest, Hebrews 4:14-16. Jesus prophesied of the Temple being desolate and that no one will see Him again until His time comes meaning when He returns on the last day, Matthew 24:1, 2; Luke 13:34, 35, John 6:40.

God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on part of the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD. The Muslims will never give it over to Israel, plus the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition (not a Muslim man) to come and sit on his throne and will cause a great falling away from truth, Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.

Jesus fulfilled everything the temple stood for being the last sacrificial lamb taking away all the sin of the world. God no longer dwells in a temple made by hands, Acts 7:48-50; 17:22-31; Hebrews 10:7-18

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The church, (body of Christ) is the temple where God dwells by His Holy Spirit, Zechariah 6:9-15 (prophecy of coming Messiah); 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22, Galatians 3:19-29.

In 70AD the second temple was destroyed and put an end to the temple made by hands and the sacrifices made there. The Temple of God now dwells in all who are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Where in scripture is it defined that way please?

Everywhere. Please understand our Lord is referring to the unrepentant.

the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Mt.23:38-39 (Both KJV)

All the scriptures testify that people who claimed to love God despised and murdered Him.
All the scriptures testify we are all sinners in need of Gods' mercy. Jesus showed Gods' mercy in a way that is unbelieveable, because He should have been honored but was spit on and so much worse.
Do you understand that God said He will forgive anyone who is truly sorry for whatever sins we've committed and proved it by the forebearance of Jesus?

 

[Wheat Field]

Everywhere. Please understand our Lord is referring to the unrepentant.

the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Mt.23:38-39 (Both KJV)

All the scriptures testify that people who claimed to love God despised and murdered Him.
All the scriptures testify we are all sinners in need of Gods' mercy. Jesus showed Gods' mercy in a way that is unbelieveable, because He should have been honored but was spit on and so much worse.
Do you understand that God said He will forgive anyone who is truly sorry for whatever sins we've committed and proved it by the forebearance of Jesus?

I will reply to your previous post o

Hi Wheat Field



That's right, "when they see standing in the holy place the abomination THAT CAUSES the desolation. In 70 A.D. the abomination THAT CAUSES the desolation was standing in the Holy Place and overran all of Israel and destroyed the temple to its very foundation. That was the seeing of the abomination THAT CAUSES desolation. Then Jesus warned that all of Judea flee to the hills, which they pretty much did and for some 1900 years, had no homeland. So this isn't about the end of the age. But the disciples had asked what would be the signs of his coming and of the end of the age. The desolation of Israel had come upon them. And yes, there were many standing there listening to his words that were alive 40 years later.

But that isn't the end of the list of things that Jesus said was going to happen to bring about the final end of this age. Remember, there were three questions. When was the temple going to be destroyed was just answered. But remember also that the abomination that causes desolation is still there and still causing desolation. "They shall PLACE THERE the abomination of desolation". There's an endpoint to that time yet to come. There is also an abomination yet to come on a wing of the temple. I believe there's good reason to see that as representing the Dome of the Rock. Its proximity to the actual temple mount would certainly be seen as a 'wing of the temple'. And the people to come, those who overran Jerusalem are the same people, by lineage, who placed it there in 690 A.D.

The Roman rule of Israel ended in 70 CE, after the Siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple. Palestine was delivered to the Muslims on August 20, 636, with only Jerusalem and Caesarea holding out. Jerusalem surrendered to the Muslims in 638, and Caesarea surrendered in October 640, putting Palestine and all of Syria in Muslim hands.

So, the people to come weren't the Romans. The people to come were the Arab nations. They built the Dome of the Rock on a wing of the Temple. Now we wait for the final destruction that has been decreed upon them.

God bless,
Ted

Ted - I am trying to understand your perspective on this. I am still confused though (maybe we all are).

Hi Wheat Field

Thank you for getting in on this discussion. I am actually revising my own understanding here just a bit. I too, had tried to figure out 'who' the people were that Jesus was referring to as 'that generation' that he said would not pass away. As you may have noticed coming in here I was leaning towards it meaning some future generation to come. But after writing the above post, and I absolutely have to give the Holy Spirit credit here, it's now crystal clear that Jesus was referring to the people who were standing around him as he spoke those words. Just as his claim that those who are in Judea should flee, was to those same people. And it is speaking of the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. But all of those warnings were concerning only the question of the destruction of the temple that the disciples had asked him about.

Then the people who are to come, which history says were the neighboring Arab nations and not Rome. At that point Rome began its decline and eventually ended up just being a city in Italy. But the Romans never again established garrisons or taxed the people of Israel. The actual land was just slowly encroached upon by the neighboring nations. So the people who are to come are the Arabs and the Arabs built the abomination that causes desolation on a wing of the temple. It still stands. In fact, just before the Dome of the Rock was built, was when Palestine was officially given over the land of Israel. Now there is another end that Jesus is speaking of. The end of the age. That end will see the completion of the rest of Jesus' words to us as to what would be happening.

God bless,
Ted

Just to be clear - are you saying that the great distress of Mat. 24:21 has already occurred? Jesus clearly links the abomination with such a calamity - he tells Israeli's to flee. If the worst has already happened then what of the end of the age? Surely that will be when the worst will happen?

 

[Wheat Field]

First thing we have to remember as when we read the letters of each book from Genesis to Revelation it was mainly written in the times of the Israelite, but also future events up to the time of Christ return. To the Isralite the abomination came in 70AD, (their generation), but we will see history repeat itself when the son of perdition takes its seat in Jerusalem, (future generation), but this time it will be a NWO of globalization throughout the whole world as many will take the mark of this beast.

So, from that generation of the first 12 Disciples that Jesus literally spoke to verbally on the Mount of Olives, many other generations followed after them and will continue up to the return of Christ, in which will be the last generation, will hear the same teachings that Jesus taught the first generation that we read in Matthew 24. That generation saw the destruction of the Temple in 70AD as well as other prophecies Jesus spoke of, but the generations after them have and will see more of what Jesus said needs to come before He returns on the last day.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I am pretty sure we are on the same page (in the sense that this is the only way to uphold Jesus's divinity and not render him a false prophet).

Even so, every time I get to v.34 - Truly, I tell you, this generation shall certainly not pass until all these things have happened - my logical mind seems to flick back to the disciples as the ones he is addressing. I think this is because otherwise his words seem ambiguous. We have to infer 'this' generation' as the generation that sees the abomination and then infer that 'all these things' is all the rest of what follows the abomination - the great distress, the sun darkening etc, the coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect.

I keep finding myself asking - could Jesus have been clearer - could he not have anticipated the confusion this verse has caused (as in C. S. Lewis as mentioned in the OP).

Do we infer that Jesus knew his words would be recorded and therefore anticipated that anyone who should read them could possibly be one of those to whom he was really addressing when he said, 'this generation'? Thinking in this way adds a degree of complexity to what would otherwise be a straightforward understand of grammar. Further, Jesus could not exclude those alive at the time he delivered this Olivet discourse - he says in v.36 that ONLY the father know the day and the hour.

I still can't quite fathom all these threads; it should be the case that Jesus used just the right form of words to effectively convey his meaning - otherwise my charge (and others) that they leave room for skepticism is a valid one.

 

[Wheat Field]

Everywhere. Please understand our Lord is referring to the unrepentant.

the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Mt.23:38-39 (Both KJV)

All the scriptures testify that people who claimed to love God despised and murdered Him.
All the scriptures testify we are all sinners in need of Gods' mercy. Jesus showed Gods' mercy in a way that is unbelieveable, because He should have been honored but was spit on and so much worse.
Do you understand that God said He will forgive anyone who is truly sorry for whatever sins we've committed and proved it by the forebearance of Jesus?

Though I remain an unbeliever - I can certainly agree that we are all naturally selfish (though this of course requires an objective standard that only a God could establish).

The sacrifice of Jesus as told in scripture (as you allude) to is an inspiring story. I do hope that it is fact. I can see that, if true, then, yes, we have all rejected him. It makes sense.

However, as for defining the abomination with the rejection of his word, this would blur the meaning of 'when you see the abomination that causes desolation...' It would mean that ever since man has rejected God, then the abomination has been seen. It would take us back to the garden of Eden would it not?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Though I remain an unbeliever - I can certainly agree that we are all naturally selfish (though this of course requires an objective standard that only a God could establish).

And you as an unbeliever and I as a believer both know what His objective standard is. We see it every day.

The sacrifice of Jesus as told in scripture (as you allude) to is an inspiring story. I do hope that it is fact. I can see that, if true, then, yes, we have all rejected him. It makes sense.

An inspiring sensible story you don't believe but you hope is true?

However, as for defining the abomination with the rejection of his word, this would blur the meaning of 'when you see the abomination that causes desolation...' It would mean that ever since man has rejected God, then the abomination has been seen. It would take us back to the garden of Eden would it not?

That's right. The spirit that is against God,

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood Eph.6:2 KJV

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

I think you're misunderstanding who the antichist is.

this is that spirit of antichrist, 1Jn.4:3 KJV

the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. Eph.2:2 KJV

 

[Wheat Field]

And you as an unbeliever and I as a believer both know what His objective standard is. We see it every day.

Under Darwinism (and without God) there is no objective standard.

An inspiring sensible story you don't believe but you hope is true?

I hope it is true but I remain skeptical because of verses like Matthew 24:34

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood Eph.6:2 KJV

I think you're misunderstanding who the antichist is.

I don't understand how this clarifies Jesus's explicit reference to what surely must be a specific point in time? Unless the apostles or whomever Jesus is referring to can understand what this event is then they cannot understand Jesus' prophecy. Jesus attempts to answer the question of when will the end of the age come (whilst acknowledging that the precise day and hour is only know to the Father).

this is that spirit of antichrist, 1Jn.4:3 KJV
the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. Eph.2:2 KJV

I have no real knowledge or understanding of an antichrist.

Do you assert that Christ returned and gathered the elect at the time of the second Temple's destruction? That everyone saw his return?

 

[Vinny37]

C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are In heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"

I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?

C S Lewis shortlisted a number of logically problematic texts. Allow me a quote from https://archive.org/details/revelations-gone-global/page/110/mode/1up.

[Lewis called Mk.13:30, “the most embarrassing verse in the Bible” (Lewis 1975:69). But before we jump to the idea that Jesus was mistaken, we should note that almost immediately Jesus added that even he did not know “that day or hour”. Moreover, the fact that decades later the Gospel writer kept both the seeming gaffe, and the certain self-certified ignorance of Jesus (32), tells a story. Do such texts “make up the strongest proof that the NT is historically reliable” (Lewis 1975:70), telling a story of integrity? For who but an honest writer would highlight a gaffe—followed by a confession of ignorance—by one they deemed to be in a one-of-a-kind sense, God’s son who had been raised from death and was their lord?

Lewis noted how it can seem to us to be a gaffe. But decades on, did the Gospel writers think it to be a gaffe? Perhaps if we hear with their ears, we would hear a better story. “There is no need to seek some esoteric interpretation of [this generation], once we realize that the event being referred to by ‘these things’ and ‘all these things’ in Mk.13:29–30, is the same as ‘these things’ and ‘all these things’ in 13:4—Jesus’s prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem in 13:2” (Robert H Stein’s Mark (BECNT), 2014:15781-3/29605: Kindle).

Lewis had a fair point as to v32, but increased the puzzle if they were thinking of Jesus as being God, as Lewis assumed. Personally I think that they had better insight, though uncrystallised theologically. Theologically, Jesus was not God omniscient, but was and is the permanent temporal (time/‌space) mode of the uncreated eternal second person of deity. That is, God’s son incarnate/‌physical had the limitations of carnate/‌physical humanity, not the unlimitations of God the son noncarnate/‌nonphysical, the personhood without the incommunicable attributes, of God the son.]

I have skipped some footnotes. CSL wrote with more QQQ than AAA, but he ploughed on, further in and higher up, for a detective follows the clues to resolution. He was the first to admit that he was no theologian, and he was skeptical about many theologians. But a higher view than his high view of Scripture, is justifiable.

 

[Wheat Field]

C S Lewis shortlisted a number of logically problematic texts. Allow me a quote from https://archive.org/details/revelations-gone-global/page/110/mode/1up.

[Lewis called Mk.13:30, “the most embarrassing verse in the Bible” (Lewis 1975:69). But before we jump to the idea that Jesus was mistaken, we should note that almost immediately Jesus added that even he did not know “that day or hour”. Moreover, the fact that decades later the Gospel writer kept both the seeming gaffe, and the certain self-certified ignorance of Jesus (32), tells a story. Do such texts “make up the strongest proof that the NT is historically reliable” (Lewis 1975:70), telling a story of integrity? For who but an honest writer would highlight a gaffe—followed by a confession of ignorance—by one they deemed to be in a one-of-a-kind sense, God’s son who had been raised from death and was their lord?

Lewis noted how it can seem to us to be a gaffe. But decades on, did the Gospel writers think it to be a gaffe? Perhaps if we hear with their ears, we would hear a better story. “There is no need to seek some esoteric interpretation of [this generation], once we realize that the event being referred to by ‘these things’ and ‘all these things’ in Mk.13:29–30, is the same as ‘these things’ and ‘all these things’ in 13:4—Jesus’s prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem in 13:2” (Robert H Stein’s Mark (BECNT), 2014:15781-3/29605: Kindle).

Lewis had a fair point as to v32, but increased the puzzle if they were thinking of Jesus as being God, as Lewis assumed. Personally I think that they had better insight, though uncrystallised theologically. Theologically, Jesus was not God omniscient, but was and is the permanent temporal (time/‌space) mode of the uncreated eternal second person of deity. That is, God’s son incarnate/‌physical had the limitations of carnate/‌physical humanity, not the unlimitations of God the son noncarnate/‌nonphysical, the personhood without the incommunicable attributes, of God the son.]

I have skipped some footnotes. CSL wrote with more QQQ than AAA, but he ploughed on, further in and higher up, for a detective follows the clues to resolution. He was the first to admit that he was no theologian, and he was skeptical about many theologians. But a higher view than his high view of Scripture, is justifiable.

Interesting thanks - but that still leaves us with no answer, surely? The skeptic will continue to point to these verses and claim them as reason for doubt. Jesus predicted more than the destruction of the temple - he specifically references his return.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Under Darwinism (and without God) there is no objective standard.

That's right. That's why the lawgiver said,

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin Jn.15:22 KJV

I hope it is true but I remain skeptical because of verses like Matthew 24:34

The generation which sees the tribulation Jesus described is the believers who are experiencing persecution caused by that spirit which opposes Him,

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 2Tim.3:12 NKJV

I don't understand how this clarifies Jesus's explicit reference to what surely must be a specific point in time?

The specific point in time is the rejection of Christ Himself. He expanded this rejection to include His entire body (the rejection of his followers),

He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me
rejects Him who sent Me. Lk.10:16 NKJV

Unless the apostles or whomever Jesus is referring to can understand what this event is then they cannot understand Jesus' prophecy.

That's right.

Jesus attempts to answer the question of when will the end of the age come (whilst acknowledging that the precise day and hour is only know to the Father).

The end of the age is when He appears as Judge.

I have no real knowledge or understanding of an antichrist.

Any unbeliever has the spirit of antichrist. Any adversary of our Lord.

Do you assert that Christ returned and gathered the elect at the time of the second Temple's destruction? That everyone saw his return?

No. I'm saying those who will see "Jesus coming in clouds" see Him gathering believers now.

 

[Wheat Field]

That's right. That's why the lawgiver said,

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin Jn.15:22 KJV

The generation which sees the tribulation Jesus described is the believers who are experiencing persecution caused by that spirit which opposes Him,

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 2Tim.3:12 NKJV

The specific point in time is the rejection of Christ Himself. He expanded this rejection to include His entire body (the rejection of his followers),

He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me
rejects Him who sent Me. Lk.10:16 NKJV

That's right.

The end of the age is when He appears as Judge.

Any unbeliever has the spirit of antichrist. Any adversary of our Lord.

No. I'm saying those who will see "Jesus coming in clouds" see Him gathering believers now.

You said that, 'rejecting what Christ taught is the abomination that causes desolation.' How does Matthew 24:15 still make sense if that is correct?

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— "

Why would Jesus make reference to 'the holy place' if the abomination is his own rejection? If we assume you are right then Jesus is telling his disciples to flee to the mountains immediately at the moment he is rejected. It was really then that occurred the most awful distress that will never be repeated?

Again, please correct me if I am wrong for this makes no sense to me.