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Is Matthew 24:34 grounds for skepticism?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 does not speak of the Lake of Fire which has an eternal purpose , and in no way constitutes the judgement to take place on the earth .

2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
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2Th 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Very telling that the Lake of Fire is spoken of in scripture, yet you want to avoid quoting it where it is mentioned because it does not fit your concocted speculations .
I haven't avoided it. I related the teo, because there's no sense in causing the entire universe to burn...but then need another fire to complete the job.
 
Hi again Wheat Field

There are actually several places where we are told a list of things that are going to happen, but the don't all necessarily follow one after the other or in any certain order. There can also be a list where some of the things are happening now and some of the other things happen later. Prophetic writings are full of this kind of revelation. So I would call your attention to Jesus' words in 24:33. And remember please, that chapters and verses are additions that we've made to God's word.

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door."

Now Jesus has just giving his disciples a list of things that they will see happening as the end, that they had asked him about, comes. But they also asked him three questions.

“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Two questions: When will this happen? What will be the sign of your coming? Then the third, "and of the end of the age?"

Now, we can assume that the sign of his coming and of the end of the age, might be the same answer. But we must also understand that it might not, too. Anyway, Jesus gives them a list of things that they will be seeing happening upon the earth that will signify these things that Jesus is talking about, coming to be in real life and real time.

Now, the entire conversation starts with his disciples asking him to marvel at the site of their holy temple. I can imagine Peter sweeping his hand across the view of the building and declaring, "Look! Look at this marvelous temple where we worship your Father! See what a grand structure it is."

So to this statement that must have been something like what I've fabricated, Jesus first tells them that the temple isn't going to stand. "Don't marvel at that grand temple because in a very short time it will not be standing. And I mean there won't be one stone upon another. That's how totally it will be destroyed".

Jesus first warns them of being deceived by false prophets and false messiahs. He tells them that you will hear of war and rumors of war. But the end is still to come. So when we do hear these things, we know that the end hasn't come yet. He gets a little more detailed in the accounting of the wars. Telling them that nation will rise up against nation. Now that statement right there, tells me that Jesus isn't talking about 70 A.D. There wasn't any proliferation of nations warring with each other at that time. It was merely the destruction of a city under the control of Rome.

There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. So this isn't some mid afternoon shaking of the earth in Israel at Jesus' crucifixion. There is no record that there were some lot of famines or earthquakes at that time. Today, one might say that they have become much more common place. But there are still only the birth pangs, he tells us. It isn't the end yet.

Then he continues with his list of prophetic signs that we should see, and closes by telling them that when they see 'all' of these things, then the end is near. Right at the door, he says to them. Certainly, making the point that it is immediately eminent. Then Jesus says, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place." And the question is 'what' generation did Jesus mean by saying 'this generation'? Is it the generation of the people that he was talking to, or was it the generation to come when the last signs are shown? In other words, once we get to where we are seeing wars all over the globe and famines and earthquakes, that generation will not pass away until Jesus returns.

I mean, I hear a lot of nations are actively involved or thinking about going to war with a neighbor nation. I know that there are nearly always places of famine around the globe. I see pictures about once every couple of months of some city or area devastated by an earthquake. So it could be this generation living today that won't pass away before Jesus' return. If we consider that the Scriptures generally use 20 years to establish one generation from another in lineage. But the lifespan of any generation should be about 70-80 years.

So I believe that we are now becoming the generation that Jesus spoke of. Oddly enough, there are other clues that would lead me to believe that it could happen in the next 100 years. Now please, I am not foretelling a day or hour, merely a season. Just calling out from the watchtower, "Keep watch! For the days are fast approaching that we should expect to see the return of our Lord."

We are hearing of wars and rumors of war. We are witnessing nation rise up against nation. We are seeing signs and wonders in the heavens. We are becoming, across the globe, as it was in the days of Noah. Jesus' return could be very close.

However, I would encourage that you spend time actually seeking after Jesus first. And I'm not asking you to make some grand life change. I'm just encouraging that you at least give it 30 seconds of your time to bow your head and ask God to show you the truth. "God, by the power of your Holy Spirit, please let me understand what you ask of me. Give me understanding of your word." Just those two sentences and feel free to add anything else that come to your mind, but at least those words before you begin seeking the answers to the questions that you are asking.

Simple, ease, won't take 30 seconds out of your life. And please don't hesitate to PM me if you'd like a more private communication.

God bless,
Ted
Do you think it right to infer that Jesus, who was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel, is indeed speaking to Jews who see such signs? In Mat. 24:15ff his references are Jewish.

In reading the entire passage again, I cannot help but consider it a special case because it is about when in the future something will happen. So at the point when the disciples first ask the question(s), any future moment is possible. That means that Jesus' response cannot be limited to those that ask the question...unless he specifically says so. The 'jolt' that comes when Jesus uses 'this' in v34 always (for me at least) drags us back to those to whom he is speaking. But, if we acknowledge my previous statements (and others have said similar), then that isn't necessarily the case.

William Lane Craig has spoken on the problems of Jesus' Olivet discourse: "Paul as well said that certain things must take place before the Son of Man comes, such as the coming of the lawless one predicted in II Thessalonians 2; the ingathering of the full number of the Gentiles into the church; and then finally the repentance and salvation of all of Israel (Romans 11:25-6)."

Worth citing are:

Matthew 10:21-23
“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 16:28
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
 
Hi Wheat Field

Could you rephrase the question? I'm not clear on what it is that you're asking here.

God bless,
Ted
Do we take it that the signs that Jesus refers to are literally in relation to Israel and the Jews? He mentions Judea and the 'abomination that causes desolation' (which I assume is a reference to The Temple).
 
Do we take it that the signs that Jesus refers to are literally in relation to Israel and the Jews? He mentions Judea and the 'abomination that causes desolation' (which I assume is a reference to The Temple).
Oh sure, some of it is about the Jews and their nation. Some of it, however, seems to be about world events, i.e. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

God bless,
Ted
 
Oh sure, some of it is about the Jews and their nation. Some of it, however, seems to be about world events, i.e. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

God bless,
Ted
Thanks miamited - that makes sense.

Would you like to respond to the rest of my post - that Jesus' response to his disciples questions is a special case...that 'this' (generation) does not have to mean those to whom he was speaking since they are asking when the end will come which could be any time. Since Jesus explicitly states the signs that will precede his parousia, then Jesus must then necessarily include the generation that actually sees such signs.

I'm tying myself in knots, I know.
 
Might be worth focusing on v. 33 which may be translated 'he' rather than 'it'. If we take on board the fact that Jesus, in predicting the end time and his parousia, must not be limited in any way as to the exact moment when it will occur, then 'this generation' must be 'allowed' to reference those that 'see all these things'.

Matthew 24:32-34
“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it (or he) is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
 
A prophecy is for a prophet to foretell a near future, then for God to foretell a far end.

Example,
Matthew 24:15-16
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

This is for Daniel to foretell a near future to him, then for Jesus to foretell another near future to Him, then for God to foretell the end of days.

"This generation" is for Jesus to foretell His return to the Kingdom on earth, and the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, then for God to foretell the End Time events.
 
A prophecy is for a prophet to foretell a near future, then for God to foretell a far end.

Example,
Matthew 24:15-16
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

This is for Daniel to foretell a near future to him, then for Jesus to foretell another near future to Him, then for God to foretell the end of days.

"This generation" is for Jesus to foretell His return to the Kingdom on earth, and the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, then for God to foretell the End Time events.
The notion that Jesus returned in AD70 is beyond comprehension; a non-event if ever there was one.

Or have I misunderstood your post?
 
Thanks miamited - that makes sense.

Would you like to respond to the rest of my post - that Jesus' response to his disciples questions is a special case...that 'this' (generation) does not have to mean those to whom he was speaking since they are asking when the end will come which could be any time. Since Jesus explicitly states the signs that will precede his parousia, then Jesus must then necessarily include the generation that actually sees such signs.

I'm tying myself in knots, I know.
Hey Wheat Field

To be honest, I'm not yet clear on what the 'this generation' claim really may be about. That has always been the questioning part for us. Who, what group of people, is the subject of his words that 'this generation' ... What I surmise is that some of the things that Jesus spoke of were addressing different parts of the questions that he was asked of his disciples. Some of it did have to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and that did happen within the time of the generation living when Jesus was with us. I mean, it may well be that the Great Tribulation started pretty much as soon as Jesus ascended into heaven.

We find that then Jerusalem was destroyed and later 6 million Jews were murdered and if you look at all the time before Jesus came, then the things that have been happening to the Jews since Jesus came, is like something that has never happened before since the calling and establishing the Jewish nationality through Abraham. The Jews have been persecuted by pretty much every nation at some point in the last 2,000 years.

So yes, there is ample evidence that a lot of what Jesus spoke to his disciples about in this conversation is all about the Jewish people and nation. Hawkins speaks of how some prophecies seem to have near and far implications concerning events that will be happening at some point in the actual living of our lives on the earth. And I don't deny that.

God bless,
Ted
 
"This generation" is for Jesus to foretell His return to the Kingdom on earth, and the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, then for God to foretell the End Time events.
Hey Hawkins

Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're saying about the generation to be any kind of reference to the return of his kingdom. I think the prophecy speaks to there being days after that of great tribulation. That 'this generation' would not die before all the rumors of wars and nations rising up against nation doesn't fit with the 70 A.D. timeline of some return of the Lord that anyone could surely see today. Exactly when did the Lord return to the kingdom on earth? In the year that the temple was destroyed? And he has been here in his kingdom for all of that time? It is your understanding that Jesus told Pilate that his kingdom was not of this earth and then brought it down to the earth in 70 A.D.?

God bless,
Ted
 
Hey Hawkins

Yeah, I'm not clear on what you're saying about the generation to be any kind of reference to the return of his kingdom. I think the prophecy speaks to there being days after that of great tribulation. That 'this generation' would not die before all the rumors of wars and nations rising up against nation doesn't fit with the 70 A.D. timeline of some return of the Lord that anyone could surely see today. Exactly when did the Lord return to the kingdom on earth? In the year that the temple was destroyed? And he has been here in his kingdom for all of that time? It is your understanding that Jesus told Pilate that his kingdom was not of this earth and then brought it down to the earth in 70 A.D.?

God bless,
Ted
"This generation" refers to the nation of Israel in a collective sense. Until the Lord returns, Israel is here to stay, they've been preserved by God as His chosen people.
 
Is there any doubt that the apostle Peter thought that the last days had come?

Acts 2:14-21
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’"
 
Is there any doubt that the apostle Peter thought that the last days had come?

Acts 2:14-21
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’"
Hi Wheat Field

Yes, and I agree with Paul. The last days started when Jesus ascended into heaven. We have been living in what the Scriptures refer to as 'the last days' for about 2,000 years now. God has done all the work necessary that we can now take up His offer of eternal salvation. Now He sits patiently, in these the last days, waiting for the number of those who will be saved to be fulfilled. We are living in the last days. However, the Scriptures are fairly clear that they will be getting progressively worse.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi Wheat Field

Yes, and I agree with Paul. The last days started when Jesus ascended into heaven. We have been living in what the Scriptures refer to as 'the last days' for about 2,000 years now. God has done all the work necessary that we can now take up His offer of eternal salvation. Now He sits patiently, in these the last days, waiting for the number of those who will be saved to be fulfilled. We are living in the last days. However, the Scriptures are fairly clear that they will be getting progressively worse.

God bless,
Ted
I guess I am a little perplexed at this phrase 'the last days' which intuitively seems at odds with a 2000 year period of time.

Would anyone describe their time as 'the last days' if at least 2000 years (some 730 thousand days) were to follow?
 
I guess I am a little perplexed at this phrase 'the last days' which intuitively seems at odds with a 2000 year period of time.

Would anyone describe their time as 'the last days' if at least 2000 years (some 730 thousand days) were to follow?
HI Wheat Field

Yeah, it confused me for a long time also. But then I came to realize that God generally measures time in days. In Daniel He measures years by a week of days. So, the last days, for Him, and this is where we find proper application of God's claim that to Him a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, seems to be defined as all the days after He has completed His work to bring about man's way of salvation. So, when we read somewhere in the Scriptures where God used the term 'last days', He's referring to any time after Jesus' ascension. This is why Peter referred to the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost by quoting the prophet who said that 'in the last days' the things that were being witnessed at Pentecost would be happening.

We are living in the time period that God has referred to in His Scriptures as 'the last days'. Yes, for our human minds, 2,000 years seems to be a lot of last days... and so it is.

God bless,
Ted
 
C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that
hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are In heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"

I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?
CS Lewis' hasty generalization fallacy (combining events that were prophesied to occur within the generation then alive, with events that occur within one generation in the end time after the entire world is evangelized), puts the fault on skeptics, not Jesus. Everything He predicted was (or will be) fabulously and precisely fulfilled.

The data is complex. People can be forgiven for getting the near and long term fulfillments confused. But the fault lies with interpreters, not Jesus.

Christ isn't just proven to be deity by His predictions, dozens of OT prophecies precisely were fulfilled by Jesus that He had no control over. A Jewish scholar trying to disprove Christ's claims wrote a book about these prophecies, that were so completely and precisely fulfilled that he theorized Christ and His followers purposely fulfilled them. But Jesus or His followers didn't control all events during His crucifixion (Romans casting lots for His clothing etc), birth, etc. The book was "The Passover Plot".

"The Passover Plot" is worthy of mention because it cuts through all the phony denials about OT prophecies fulfilled in Jesus. He studied them, and agreed Jesus fulfilled them. His theory failed to explain many prophecies neither Jesus or His followers could control.
 
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Oh sure, some of it is about the Jews and their nation. Some of it, however, seems to be about world events, i.e. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

God bless,
Ted
Those are signs indicating the end of an ERA, usually in a regional scale. They may seem like the end of YOUR world, but of the end of THE world, Jesus reassured the disciples about that in Matt. 24:6. What is the definitive end? The completion of the great commission - gospel preached to all nations, and all nations bear witness of the gospel.

And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (Matt. 24:6)

This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matt. 24:14)
 
Hey Carry_Your_Name
This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
I rather imagine we're pretty much at that point. What nation do you believe hasn't had the gospel spoken of within its borders? Even in nations where such faith is punishable by death, there is a church there. That nation has heard the gospel and is likely still hearing it, but the nation has heard the gospel and decided that isn't true and they'll put to death anyone who believes it. Yeah, they've heard the gospel.

And we are hearing of wars and rumors of war, but that seems to be something that has been going on for at least several decades. It will likely get worse, but the end could come at anytime, just as Jesus said.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hey Carry_Your_Name

I rather imagine we're pretty much at that point. What nation do you believe hasn't had the gospel spoken of within its borders? Even in nations where such faith is punishable by death, there is a church there. That nation has heard the gospel and is likely still hearing it, but the nation has heard the gospel and decided that isn't true and they'll put to death anyone who believes it. Yeah, they've heard the gospel.

And we are hearing of wars and rumors of war, but that seems to be something that has been going on for at least several decades. It will likely get worse, but the end could come at anytime, just as Jesus said.

God bless,
Ted
Yes, I believe the Lord will return at around 2030, 2000 years after his crucifixion and resurrection. My point was to debunk amilleniallism, which had been rather the orthodoxy teaching among most prominent denominantions. It suggests that we're already living in the kingdom, Jesus is reigning in heaven, there'll be no such end, and there'll be no bodily return. You've got all these alarmist doomsay preachers who have set various dates, everytime you've got a major apacolyptic disaster like the ones Jesus described, they declared that this is it, except it never was, that just reinforced amilleniallism. It's like the kid who's crying wolf, you know, they were crying king Jesus, it chips away their credibility, and nobody's gonna believe Jesus's returning even though it's really about time for him to return. In the Olivet Discourse, Lord Jesus made a distinction between what are the signs of the definitive end and what may often be mistaken as signs of the definitive end, most people don't know the difference.
 
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