I don't agree that man has to be MADE to sin against his will. All that was needed for Adam to sin was a law (thou shalt not) and a free will to transgress that law and he became a sinner. Adam was not created with sin, a sin nature or totally depraved but still able to sin meaning OS, sin nature, total depravity are not mandatory for one to become a sinner.
E...no one is saying man is MADE TO SIN. Especially against his will.
I think this is such an important topic because it helped me a great deal to understand the nature of man. If we can latch on to that, it helps to understand why men behave the way they do. It helped me to understand why some persons are so unkind and why some get themselves into so much trouble. It helped me to understand my children and raise them in a much better way.
What I wish you would do is forget a little bit, for the time being, about the law. There was always a law despite what Paul says in Romans....we can't get into that here...and man has always disobeyed the law....let's find out why.
Adam was NOT created with a sin nature...he was created perfectly.
Eve was DECEIVED by satan...we are not deceived; we know about sin.
Adam also ate and the reasons could be varied.
No one is born TOTALLY DEPRAVED...this is a calvinistic doctrine which is incorrect but you do seem to get a lot of calvinistic ideas into your arguments. NO ONE on this thread said we are born totally depraved or even depraved.
Original Sin only means what Adam did...the sin HE committed. Forget every other meaning for a while and then we could get back to it. As I've said, the meaning changed in 400AD,,,but this is not important for us.
You say sin is not fun but I think many will disagree with you on that...."Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;" Heb 11:25
Sin might feel good for a while, but any intelligent person, even a non-believer, knows that it is not fun. Think of an alcoholic. It might be fun to get drunk every now and then, I wouldn't really know, but is it fun when it turns a life upside down and ruins families?
Any other sin you can think of will work out about the same.
I agree. Those that believe in OS do not agree with your statement here.
I agree again. But OS would make one responsible for Adam's sin.
OK. What you're agreeing to in both cases is that a person is NOT responsible for the sin of another. No one is imputed with the sin of another. We are all responsible for our own sins.
You agree that babies cannot go to hell because babies cannot sin.
OK.
Not sure what you mean by "EFFECT of sin".
We all physically die as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam sinning and not because we inherit his sin. Just as someone killed by a drunk driver, that person died as a CONSEQUENCE of the drunk driver's sin but does not inherit the drunk driver's sin therefore not accountable for the drunk driver's sins.
What I mean by the EFFECT of Adam's sin is what you describe above.
Adam's sin is his alone..but we suffer from the effect, or consequence of it.
He was immortal and lost that when he sinned...we also lost it.
He had infused knowledge but lost that when he sinned....we also lost it.
Adam, being the father of all men...passed on the consequences of his sin.
God banished Adam from the Garden...he was no longer pure.
He passed this impurity to all of his offspring.
This impurity is known as the sin nature.
We are impure.
We have the sin nature due to Adam's sin.
We are born with it.
A baby has the sin nature....
but he cannot sin.
When he gets to be about 2 years old he does sin...he might tell a lie, or throw something at another toddler....but he is NOT RESPONSIBLE for that sin because he does not know he's sinning.
If YOU commit a sin you are not aware of, you also are not responsible for it.
As the toddler grows, at some point he DOES become aware of God and sin and then knowingly will commit sin....at this point he will be responsible for his sin.
But what makes us sin? Of course we have free will...but what makes us not obey God?
It's the sin nature we're born with...it's the impurity we've gotten from Adam.
NOT Adam's sin....
His IMPURITY.
Before Adam sinned he was innocent and sinless before God and spiritually alive. After he sinned he died spiritually.
He died spiritually but eventually he also died physically.
He became impure.
Abel and Cain when they were born they were like Adam before he sinned being innocent and without sin before God. But when they followed in the footsteps of their father and sinned then they spiritually died too.
This is not the accepted Christian belief.
Abel and Cain were born impure just as their father was. Adam's actual DNA became impure and imperfect. They were NOT born innocent. They were born impure, with the sin nature. They were born spiritually dead and had to become alive at the age of responsibility...and they also physically died due to Adam's sin causing impurity in the human race.
Just as Adam was able to sin without having a sin nature or totally depraved all he had to do was break a law of God by choice. Cain and Abel likewise were not born with a sin nature/total depravity but just used their free will to break a law of God and they became sinners. You and I were not born with sin nor a sin nature nor totally depraved but born with a free will given to us by God and when we choose to transgress God's law we became sinners just like Adam Cain and Able by doing just as they did...choose to sin.
This sounds good and reasonable.
But was Adam not the father of all men? As per Romans..as through one man sin entered into the world....we have death because of this sin....and it spread to all men...because Adam is the father of all men. Romans 5,,,but they did not die because of THEIR individual sin but because of Adam's sin.
So I am not understanding why people have to have something 'special' or some kind of "effect" to be able to sin when all they need to sin is a law and free will to choose to break that law and bang...they are now a sinner.
Men need a law to transgress and they need free will and they are held hostage by satan because we all are born impure and this is known as the sin nature. This is why it's necessary to become saved....because we're born lost.
When we become born again this sin nature is made submissive to §God and we will still sin but much much less because we love Jesus and with the help of the Holy Spirit we are able to walk away from sin many times. But not always, right? Why not? Do you still find pleasure in sinning? No! It's because sometimes we will succumb to our old nature,,,the old nature Paul speaks of. Ephesians 2:3, Romans 6:6 and more....
So we're born with this impurity,,,this sin nature.
We are not responsible for it until the age of accountability.
If you wish to go over the doctrine of Original Sin,,,I'd be happy to do that too.
