Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

It seems like you're very affected by Calvinism.
I don't believe Calvinism is biblical and, if you've noticed,
I don't speak about it because it's all not correct as far as I'm concerned.

Depravity is not the same as the sin nature.

I do understand your point.
I just can't reconcile it with Adam and the consequences of his sin.
Don't you think Adam's sin CHANGED our nature?
Not making it EVIL....but not allowing it to be pure anymore.

Please forget about depravity.
No one here is speaking about depravity.

I do not see any difference between sin nature and total depravity.

I do not know how you define sin nature but the following websites define it this way: (in blue-my emp)
"The sin nature is that part of human beings that impels us to commit sin. The Bible teaches that we have a sin nature. Not only do we commit sin, but it is our nature to do so."

The sin nature - What is it?

The sin nature - What is it? What does it mean that we possess a sin nature?

www.compellingtruth.org

Another website:
"The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin;"

What is the sin nature? | GotQuestions.org

What is the sin nature? What does it mean that we all have a sin nature?

www.gotquestions.org

As I have explained before, I do not believe in the idea that man is born with a nature that impels-makes-forces-causes man to sin against his will. Such a thing makes man a passive, innocent victim of sin who cannot be rightly, justly condemned.

Men do not need any such nature to sin but just a free will and a law to transgress. Those that willfully choose to sin is how men become sinners thereby making man a willful, guilty perpetrator accountable for his sins he freely chose to commit and not force-made-impelled to commit against his will.

 

[JLB]

If it is true everyone are sinners because of Adam's disobedience then it is equally true everyone will be made righteous because of Christ's obedience (Universalism).

You are projecting a preconceived mindset into the verse that isn’t there.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19

“MANY” is certainly not ALL, and does not promote Universalism.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You are projecting a preconceived mindset into the verse that isn’t there.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19

“MANY” is certainly not ALL, and does not promote Universalism.

That would mean not all are made sinners at birth, just many. So OS would not be Universal in scope and "MANY being made righteous" is not Universal in scope either.

But if in 19a it is assumed "many were made sinners" means ALL are unconditionally born sinners, then that assumption must equally apply in 19b that "many made righteous" means ALL will unconditionally be saved.

 

[JLB]

That would mean not all are made sinners at birth, just many.

Not at all.

Is a baby at one day old a sinner; someone who habitually sins?

No.

Does a baby at one day old have a body that contains sin that was passed on from the fathers bloodline all the way back to Adam?


Yes.


As the child grows into an adult, their propensity for sin also grows, until they begin to sin in small ways, and are aware of it and need correction.


A child may accept Jesus Christ at the age of 7, which is well before the “age of accountability“ (not necessarily a biblical term but a biblical concept) and never become a “sinner” in the sense of the word.


This is just one example.


The Point.

My point in all this is, to show we are born with a body that contains sin, in which we have a (sin) nature as a children of wrath, however we may not act from that nature as a sinner until older.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2:1-3


IOW, every single human being needs a Savior.


Some children die young before they have the knowledge of good and evil.


Some are saved by grace through faith.


Some never accept Christ.


Then there are some who turn away from Christ.


Then there are tares. (Another discussion)



JLB

 

[JLB]

If men are born with sin, that would being born lost, not safe.

Is it your belief that a son of God is produced through natural child birth.


Ed

 

[JLB]

That would mean not all are made sinners at birth, just many.

Not at all.

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19

• as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,

JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not at all.

Is a baby at one day old a sinner; someone who habitually sins?

No.

Does a baby at one day old have a body that contains sin that was passed on from the fathers bloodline all the way back to Adam?


Yes.

If the baby has sin that would make him a sinner. Can't be a sinner without having done any sin just as one can't be righteous before God having done no righteousness.

Sin is transgression of God's law, not a substance or idea passed from one to another.

As the child grows into an adult, their propensity for sin also grows, until they begin to sin in small ways, and are aware of it and need correction.


A child may accept Jesus Christ at the age of 7, which is well before the “age of accountability“ (not necessarily a biblical term but a biblical concept) and never become a “sinner” in the sense of the word.


This is just one example.

Rom 7:8-9 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

--"for without the law sin was dead" - if there were no law then there would be no sin. Sin is dead and cannot do anything if there were no law to be transgressed.

--"I was alive without the law once" - We just saw if there is no law then sin has no power, it has no effect meaning there was once a time in Paul's life when sin was dead to him, it had no power over him. He was alive spiritually.

--"when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" - but when Paul matured learning right from wrong and being taught God's law THEN sin came alive in him and THEN he died spiritually. He was not born spiritually dead in sin, not born with any sin at all for sin sprang up in him later in life when the 'commandment came" and his innocent state was then over. There is no set age this sin springs up since all people mentally mature, develop at different rates.

The Point.

My point in all this is, to show we are born with a body that contains sin, in which we have a (sin) nature as a children of wrath, however we may not act from that nature as a sinner until older.


And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2:1-3

The word 'nature' as used in the context of Eph 2:3 does not refer to how one was innately born but refers to one's nature through habitual practice.

--Eph 2:1 "And you did He make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins."
Paul is speaking about those Ephesians own personal sins, not Adam's sin.


--Paul speaks to how they lived.." ye once walked according to the course of this world" and "we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind" They habitually lived and practice sinning for so long it became part of their nature by that habitual practice of sinning. Paul does not speak here to how they were born.

--"were by nature children of wrath"
The verb 'were' is middle voice, perfect tense.

The middle voice shows the subject, the Ephesians, making themselves children of wrath. Being children of wrath was not something that passively happen to them against their will but their own willful involvement in sinning.
The perfect tense denotes an action done in the past in an ongoing, continuous fashion.

Hence Paul is telling those Ephesians 'you kept on making yourselves children of wrath'. They did so by their habitually walking in sin in the past. Nothing to do with how they were born.

IOW, every single human being needs a Savior.


Some children die young before they have the knowledge of good and evil.


Some are saved by grace through faith.


Some never accept Christ.


Then there are some who turn away from Christ.


Then there are tares. (Another discussio)



JLB

Infants and those born with severe mental illness have no sin, therefore not lost. But are in a safe state and would be saved dying in that safe state. If they were born children of wrath being in sin and die as an infant they would be lost. If 'children of wrath' does not mean being lost then no reason to think Rom 1:18; Rom 2:5,8; Rom 9:22 refer to being lost either.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is it your belief that a son of God is produced through natural child birth.


Ed

Christ's birth was miraculous being born of a virgin.

Yet Christ was still human in all aspects Heb 2:17; Phil 2:8-9.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not at all.

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19

• as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,

JLB

On one hand you said "many" does not mean "all" when it comes to righteousness therefore no Universalism in 19b. But now on the other hand you want "many" to mean "all" in 19a???????

Rom 5:18(a) "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; (b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

The phrase "all men" refer to the same people both times it is used...all men.

IF it (a) true ALL MEN are sinners due to the offence of Adam then it is equally true (b) that same ALL MEN will be justified by the obedience of Christ.

What is here is that ALL MEN will be on the receiving end of either condemnation or justification. So what Paul is actually showing here is the benefit (justification) that comes by righteousness of Christ is available to all who have suffered the effect of sin (condemnation) since sin entered the world by Adam.

One becomes a sinner and condemned by following Adam in choosing to transgress God's law and sin. One becomes righteous and justified by following Christ and His example of obeying God/doing righteousness.

So what one is (sinner-condemned or righteous-justified) depends on what one chooses of his free will to do, not how one was passively born against his will.

Hence no limited atonement nor OS found here.

 

[JLB]

If the baby has sin that would make him a sinner.

Not at all.

We as born again Christians have sin in our mortal body, but we have a new nature empowered by the Spirit that enables us to rule over the sin in our mortal body so we don’t have to obey its lustful cravings.

We are saints, not sinners.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Christ's birth was miraculous being born of a virgin.

Yet Christ was still human in all aspects Heb 2:17; Phil 2:8-9.

Christ did not have a human father and therefore did not have a body tainted with sin.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But now on the other hand you want "many" to mean "all" in 19a???????

I do not want many to mean all.

I explained it in my post.

Being born with sin in our born does not mean we are sinners.

We still have sin in our bodies yet we are called saints, because we don’t live in the manner of our former life of being those who live as sinners;


JLB

 

[Son of Israel]

The New Covenant Commandments given by Jesus directly into our hearts by His Holy Spirit, yes

(Joh 13:34) A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
(Joh 13:35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

(Jer 31:33) But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Co 3:3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh.

1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn_3:23 And >>>this is his commandment<<<, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[JLB]

The New Covenant Commandments given by Jesus directly into our hearts by His Holy Spirit, yes

Amen.


His commandments are about love.

They are not burdensome.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I do not want many to mean all.

I explained it in my post.

Being born with sin in our born does not mean we are sinners.

We still have sin in our bodies yet we are called saints, because we don’t live in the manner of our former life of being those who live as sinners;


JLB

Again, sin is not some kind of substance that dwells in the body not just an idea that is passed from person to person.

1 Jn 3:4; Rom 4:15 the Bible shows sin is a transgression against God's law. For sin to exist requires at least two things; there must be (1) a law and (2) that law must be transgressed. Sin simply does not 'exist' in the body or elsewhere unless a law is transgressed.

I do not agree that sin exists in the body of Saints-Christians. 1 Jn 1:7 as long as the Christian continues to walk in the light, the blood of Christ continues to wash away ALL sin leaving the Christian spotless, blameless, without wrinkle, Eph 5:27; 2 Pet 3:14.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Christ did not have a human father and therefore did not have a body tainted with sin.


JLB

It has to first be proven that their is such a thing as OS much less it is passed from father to son. Eze 18 refutes the idea of sin being passed from father to sin. Psa 51:5 cannot prove sin is passed from the father for it only mentions the mother.

How can sin be "passed" when it is not any kind of substance, no sin DNA, no sin gene to be passed. It is not an idea that is passed from person to person.

"The soul that sinneth (transgresses God's law) it shall die". Each person is accountable, responsible for their individual sins, not another person's sins.

 

[JLB]

Again, sin is not some kind of substance that dwells in the body not just an idea that is passed from person to person.

An idea passed from person to person?

Thats a new one.


Paul, continuing his narrative from chapter 5 states.


Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18



Chapter 6 —

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


Chapter 7 —

If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. Romans 7:16-18


Romans 8. —

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


The sin that entered the human race, came to all men, through Adam’s disobedience.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The soul that sinneth (transgresses God's law) it shall die". Each person is accountable, responsible for their individual sins, not another person's sins.

Each person is indeed accountable for their own sin.


However that’s not the discussion point.

How was Adam’s one act of disobedience passed on to all mankind, resulting in judgement for all mankind, showing we all need a Savior, both Jew and Gentile.


Paul is making a legal argument that is designed to destroy the stronghold within the minds of Jews who have been taught that because they are natural children of Abraham, they are blessed and therefore entitled to eternal life.


Jesus, John the Baptist, and Paul dealt with this issue.



JLB

 

[Walpole]

You might want to think about the consequences of your belief that Jesus did not share our exact nature.

The same flesh (human nature) Adam had, Jesus also had. If Jesus did not share our same exact nature, then He was not of us. Therefore, if Jesus did not have our exact human nature, then whatever nature He had is what He redeemed. That would mean you and I and all other sons of Adam are still not redeemed.


Hebrews 2:14 ---> "And since these children have a common inheritance of flesh and blood, he too shared that inheritance with them."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

An idea passed from person to person?

Thats a new one.

My point is that the Bible shows that for sin to exist, there must be a law and that law is transgressed. So sin is a transgression not just an idea or substance passed from person to person apart from transgressing laws.

one man’s offense judgment came to all men[/B], resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18



Chapter 6 —

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

For those that quit walking in the light (1 Jn 1:7) will no longer have all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ and will have sin reign in their mortal body. Again, sin here is not a substance that exist apart from transgressing God's law. The idea is to not let sin have total control over one's thoughts and actions.

Chapter 7 —

If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. Romans 7:16-18


Romans 8. —

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


The sin that entered the human race, came to all men, through Adam’s disobedience.

Again, nothing in these verses says that sin is a substance (dna, sin gene) that dwells in the human body apart from transgressing God's law.
In Rom 7 Paul does not say he was passively born with sin against his will and was not responsible for his sins. Instead Paul says:
Rom 7:16 "If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good." Paul says "I do" taking personal responsibility for the transgressions he personally committed. So the "sin that dwelleth in me" (v17) are sins Paul said "I do" not any sin inherited from Adam.

Calvinists attempt to use the later part of Rom 7 as "proof text" for total depravity. I believe Paul is using himself as an example of all Jews that lived under the OT law of Moses. That law required perfect, strict law keeping to be justified by it. Paul is describing the hardship the Jew had under that OT law in keeping it perfectly in order to be justified by that OT law. Paul desired to do good but would always end up committing a sin. Whereas the OT law condemned those that could not keep it perfectly, but "now" (as opposed to back then a Jew under the OT law) Christian in Christ there is no condemnation. Rom 8:1. Rom 7 does not describe a totally depraved person but shows a man wanting to do right, a man who "delighted in the law of God" not a totally depraved person.

Hence sin does NOT dwell in the body as a literal substance apart from transgression of laws, but it is the bad influence of sin that resides in the body. As it is the influence of Christ that dwells in the Christian Gal 2:20.