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I never studied St. Augustine's writings, so I can't comment on what he believed or taught. But I do know that the reason Traditional Catholics had/have their babies baptised asap, is because they realise the immense value of the beatific vision. Living in perfect natural happiness is nothing compared to the infinite supernatural happiness of seeing God face to face. And this supernatural happiness cannot be obtained without baptism. Hence, good Catholic parents do not take any unnecessary risk by delaying having their babies baptised, no matter how small that risk may be. The potential loss for their child is simply too great.
H Tradidi, so sorry for the delay.

Re Augustine: Easy to find out about him....try YouTube.
But, in a nutshell....Original Sin, as the first sin that man committed, always existed.
But, from the beginning of Christianity parents had their baby baptized for several reasons.
One was to give the baby the blessing of the Holy Spirit - BUT, as some point out, the Holy Spirit must be accepted individually; this is also taught today. This happens after the age of accountability (not necessarily at confirmation, trust me some kids shouldn't even be making the sacrament of confirmation). Another reason was to make the baby a member of the Christian community since persons stayed close together then and it was a real community.

St. Augustine (400AD) - who came to Christianity from Manechaesm, decided to teach that babies MUST be baptized because they are born imputed with adam's sin and thus they would be personally responsible for this great sin. So they were baptized asap because if they died he believed they would go to hell.

Why the CC accepted this at that time is also known,,,,but, as you must know, the church no longer accepts this teaching - about unbaptized babies going to hell.

As to the BEATIFIC VISION, for those that may not know, this is what it means:

The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called "vision" to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed "beatific".

source: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364a.htm


Modern "Catholics" however believe in all kinds of wishy washy feel good theories, thinking/pretending that practically everybody will end up in heaven, hence no need to rush having infants baptised.

In that sense, natural happiness can be regarded as "being lost" compared to supernatural happiness. I don't know whether this is what St. Augustine meant or believed, but I do know that is how Traditional Catholics believe it today.
As you can imagine, all my friends now are Catholic.
One of my friends thought that everyone that is baptized is saved and belongs to the Body of Christ. I explained this is not so,,,that would be universalism. She asked a monk/friar we both study with (or used to until Covid) and he explained this to her.

I miss his lessons BTW. Nice small group,,,about 15 of us.
Up in the high mountains. If we ever get over this virus, I'm sure he'll have the lessons again.

 
I agree.


Rom 9:11 children are born having done no evil (not sinners) or having done no good (not righteous) so they are neutral, a blank slate so to speak.
Romans 9:11 is speaking about Esau and Jacob.
Before they were born they had done neither good nor evil.

This is true of all of us.
Because we are born marred and damaged from Adam's sin, does not mean we cannot do good.
Many atheists do good.

I'd like to remember at this point, that we could do all the good we can, but without faith our works are dead. And without works, our faith is dead. We need both. Even in the O.T. persons were saved by their faith in God.

This is not a good verse to support the idea that man is born good.

Romans 8:3
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin,


God sent His Son, in a human body just like ours, EXCEPT THAT OURS ARE SINFUL...and Jesus' body was not sinful.

Paul is saying our body is sinful...our flesh is what sins,
our sin nature is what makes the flesh sin.

Only after salvation to we have victory over this fleshy part.
Romans 8:3b
He condemned sin in the flesh,
 
You posted yourself in post #361 that:
We do not inherit sin from Adam.
We are only responsible for our own sin
.

Since infants are not born with sin, and are not capable of sinning, and have done no evil they cannot be born "babies of sin"
I understand your point ETB.
But you're not giving any scripture I could go by.

Infants are not responsible for any sin...
EVEN THOUGH THEY DO SIN....
because they have not reached the age of accountability,,,
not because they are born good.

Again,,,we DO NOT inherit Adam's sin....this is imputation...
we are not imputed, or held responsible, for the sins of others.
Deuteronomy 24:16b
Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


Can you post a scripture that supports being born good?
 
I don't agree. People today can and are are deceived by sin; 1 Cor 15:33; 2 Tim 3:13; Titus 3:3;



I said all are born neutral, born a blank slate having done no good or evil.
I just don't find neutrality in scripture.

1 Cor 15:33
we can no longer be deceived because we know what sin is.
In 2 Timothy 3:13 Paul even states that deceivers will come in the last days, but we know FROM WATCHING PAUL that these persons are deceivers. Paul wasn't around, or was anyone else, when Adam was in the Garden. He had not eaten yet from the tree of knowledge of evil.
 
But, from the beginning of Christianity parents had their baby baptized for several reasons.

One was to give the baby the blessing of the Holy Spirit .. Another reason was to make the baby a member of the Christian community since persons stayed close together then and it was a real community.

I don't know where you got that idea from, but it sounds like a fable to me. When you read the writings of the Early Church Fathers you will see that they had a very good understanding of what baptism is and why it is absolutely necessary for salvation. There was no mention of 'community building', 'blessings', etc.. Here's a few examples:

The Early Church Fathers on the Necessity of baptism

Many people have converted to the Catholic Church after they started reading the Early Church Fathers!

St. Augustine (400AD) - who came to Christianity from Manechaesm, decided to teach that babies MUST be baptized because they are born imputed with adam's sin and thus they would be personally responsible for this great sin. So they were baptized asap because if they died he believed they would go to hell.

Again, I think you have been listening to false teachers. Here's another page which also mentions what St. Augustine taught about baptism, and which is 100% in line with what the Catholic Church has always taught:

Baptismal Grace

Infant Baptism

You must also keep in mind that it is possible, and has happened throughout history, that individual theologians are wrong on certain doctrines. Sometimes they change their opinion over time, sometimes they don't. But this is quite a different thing from the Catholic Church teaching, solemnly and authoritatively.

Why the CC accepted this at that time is also known,,,,but, as you must know, the church no longer accepts this teaching - about unbaptized babies going to hell.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here, but as I mentioned in my previous post, the Catholic Church has never taught that unbaptised babies go to hell. Not in 50 AD, not in 400 AD, not in 1500 AD, not now, never. You're welcome to try and prove me wrong.
 
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Hi Walpole,
Nice to see you again.

Not to be mean, I just don't have the time.
I'm sure I haven't changed my position on anything....

I can't check all those links to other threads here...
but if you pick one and tell me why you posted it, I'll be happy to go over it with you.

Thanks.
 
I don't know where you got that idea from, but it sounds like a fable to me. When you read the writings of the Early Church Fathers you will see that they had a very good understanding of what baptism is and why it is absolutely necessary for salvation. There was no mention of 'community building', 'blessings', etc.. Here's a few examples:

The Early Church Fathers on the Necessity of baptism

Many people have converted to the Catholic Church after they started reading the Early Church Fathers!
The idea you're speaking of is that of baptizing babies at the time before 325AD,,,the age of the ECFs.

I haven't read you link because I know what the Early Fathers believed and I just don't have the time. If you pick out a specific idea, I'll be happy to discuss.

The ECFs believed baptism was necessary to wash away sins. Did you now that at one time many waited to be on their death bed so that all their sins could be washed away?

Did you know that the fact that persons kept sinning AFTER baptism confused the Fathers because they believed that sinning should stop? Did you know that this is how confession as we know it today came about? (as a remedy to sinning AFTER baptism).

If you check with your friendly neighborhood priest and discuss this with him, you'll find that the CC DID baptize babies in the early years. The reason given is the story in Acts about Lydia and the jailer and their whole household being baptized.
Acts 16:15
Acts 16:33
This is the justification for the CC to baptize babies.

And I know that some convert to Catholicism after reading the ECFs.



Again, I think you have been listening to false teachers. Here's another page which also mentions what St. Augustine taught about baptism, and which is 100% in line with what the Catholic Church has always taught:

Baptismal Grace

Infant Baptism
PLEASE don't send me to links T....just state your position.
WHY do you believe Augustine stated babies are to be baptized ASAP?
Did anything change AFTER Augustine as regards to baptising infants?
Why did it become imperative that babies be baptized after his teachings?

Did you know that unbaptized babies were not permitted to be buried in
some cemetaries?


The CC has now gone back to its ORIGINAL position on babies and baptism.
This is a recent occurrence.

I refer you to the following paragraphs in the CCC:

402-406 (406 speaks of Augustine, but this is not enough history)
1229-1231
1250-1252
1254
1282

The above will clarify matters.

You must also keep in mind that it is possible, and has happened throughout history, that individual theologians are wrong on certain doctrines. Sometimes they change their opinion over time, sometimes they don't. But this is quite a different thing from the Catholic Church teaching, solemnly and authoritatively.
In my most humble opinion, Augustine was wrong on his doctrine of Original Sin being IMPUTED to us individually, thus making infant baptism a must.

The New Testament does not teach that infants are to be baptized.
This is NOT a commandment of the Lord and should never have been instituted.

And the CC DID accept Augustine's teaching at the time and has continued to do so until recent times.

This is from the Council of Trent,,,1554 (approx):


  1. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.
  2. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,--whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  3. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema.

source: http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch5.htm


I'm not sure what you are referring to here, but as I mentioned in my previous post, the Catholic Church has never taught that unbaptised babies go to hell. Not in 50 AD, not in 400 AD, not in 1500 AD, not now, never. You're welcome to try and prove me wrong.
Answered above.
Also, see paragraph 1261 of the CCC.
 
I just don't find neutrality in scripture.

1 Cor 15:33
we can no longer be deceived because we know what sin is.
In 2 Timothy 3:13 Paul even states that deceivers will come in the last days, but we know FROM WATCHING PAUL that these persons are deceivers. Paul wasn't around, or was anyone else, when Adam was in the Garden. He had not eaten yet from the tree of knowledge of evil.
Rom 9:11 when a person has done no good nor done any evil then they are in a neutral state. They certainly cannot be called a sinner having done no evil/sin.
 
I understand your point ETB.
But you're not giving any scripture I could go by.

Infants are not responsible for any sin...
EVEN THOUGH THEY DO SIN....
because they have not reached the age of accountability,,,
not because they are born good.

Again,,,we DO NOT inherit Adam's sin....this is imputation...
we are not imputed, or held responsible, for the sins of others.
Deuteronomy 24:16b
Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


Can you post a scripture that supports being born good?
Infants are not capable of sinning. Sin is transgression of God's law (1 Jn 3:4). They cannot lie, cannot steal, nor commit adultery, etc. Rom 7:8-9 infants are "without law' therefore sin has no power over them making them unaccountable to law.

I never said one was born good. Rom 9:11 people are born neutral (blank slate) having done no good or evil.
 
Romans 9:11 is speaking about Esau and Jacob.
Before they were born they had done neither good nor evil.

This is true of all of us.
Because we are born marred and damaged from Adam's sin, does not mean we cannot do good.
Many atheists do good.

I'd like to remember at this point, that we could do all the good we can, but without faith our works are dead. And without works, our faith is dead. We need both. Even in the O.T. persons were saved by their faith in God.

This is not a good verse to support the idea that man is born good.

Romans 8:3
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin,


God sent His Son, in a human body just like ours, EXCEPT THAT OURS ARE SINFUL...and Jesus' body was not sinful.

Paul is saying our body is sinful...our flesh is what sins,
our sin nature is what makes the flesh sin.

Only after salvation to we have victory over this fleshy part.
Romans 8:3b
He condemned sin in the flesh,
Infants are not born marred by sin. Having done no evil means they have not committed any sin meaning they are not sinners. Rom 9:11 is true of all. Paul's point in saying neither had done any good or evil is to show God's choice of Jacob over Esau was a totally sovereign choice and not based on any good or evil either had done. Since both were alike in being neutral, blank slates hence God's choice totally sovereign.
 
If doing means choosing to you, then not doing must also be choosing, since a choice is always between two or more options, either doing or not doing. So basically, when Paul says literally "I don't do the things I want I to do, but I do the things I do not want to do" you turn that right around and say that Paul "does the things he wants to do, and does not do the things he does not want to do". In other words, you interpret Paul as saying that he wants to do evil and does it, and does not want to do good and does it not.

If you read all of chapter 7 you will see Paul saying the same things several times in different ways. For example in verse 20: "Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it: but sin that dwelleth in me." Again, this is so clear and explicit, "it is no more I that do", i.e. it is no longer his choice, "but sin that dwelleth in me", i.e. concupiscence of the flesh.

Anyway, I cannot understand how you could possibly read something and understand the complete opposite of the words you are reading. It makes no sense. This is the end of any meaningful discussion to me. I wish you all the best.
Paul had sin dwelling in him for Paul chose to sin. He was not forced to sin against his will due to any 'nature' he was born with for such an idea would give Paul an excuse for his sinning making him a victim of sin rather than a culpable perpetrator of sinning. Christ had no sin dwelling in Him for He chose not to sin. It's all a matter of choices one makes, not how one is born.


I asked a couple of questions I did not see a response to those questions being:
God created man with desires....desire for sleep, food, water, love, sex, companionship, approval among peers, etc. Is man's weaknesses and sinning God's fault for creating man with desires of the flesh? Or is man responsible for his choices in either choosing to have self control over those desires or not?

It seems you are leaving the discussion having not responded to those questions.

To have Paul sinning due to desires God put in man is blaming God for man's sinning.
 
I asked a couple of questions I did not see a response to those questions being:

God created man with desires....desire for sleep, food, water, love, sex, companionship, approval among peers, etc. Is man's weaknesses and sinning God's fault for creating man with desires of the flesh? Or is man responsible for his choices in either choosing to have self control over those desires or not?

I thought I did answer those questions, several times.

No, God is not responsible for man's choices.
No, God is not responsible for creating man with weaknesses.

But that does not change the fact that man IS born with certain weaknesses. If you are looking for someone to blame, you could try the devil or Adam and Eve, but that is not going to change the facts. Think for example about a child being born with birth defects. Would you blame God for that? Would you blame the child? Or would you deny that birth defects do happen? So it is with Original Sin. You seem to reason that "neither the child nor God can be blamed for Original Sin, therefore it cannot exist". But that's faulty reasoning.

To have Paul sinning due to desires God put in man is blaming God for man's sinning.

You make two mistakes here. First, God did not "put the desires for sinning" in Paul, as I explained above. Second, Paul himself explains that he is not guilty (subjectively) of certain sins he commits (objectively). Concupiscence of the flesh makes us weaker to resist temptations, sometimes so weak that we commit sin (objectively) even though we do not want to commit sin (subjectively). In this case, the sin was committed (objectively) but we are not regarded as guilty (subjectively). This is what St. Paul is explaining in Romans chapter 7. But if you start from the dogma that Original Sin does not exist, then of course you are going to have to twist and "interpret" everything Paul says on this subject.

It seems you are leaving the discussion having not responded to those questions.

I thought we had the Bible as a common ground to build upon, but when we can no longer rely on the meaning of words then I think there is nothing left to discuss.
 
Infants are not born marred by sin. Having done no evil means they have not committed any sin meaning they are not sinners. Rom 9:11 is true of all. Paul's point in saying neither had done any good or evil is to show God's choice of Jacob over Esau was a totally sovereign choice and not based on any good or evil either had done. Since both were alike in being neutral, blank slates hence God's choice totally sovereign.
I think we're at a wall.
I really don't know what other verses to post or what other ideas of the church to discuss.
You've posted ONE verse regarding being born "neutral" and I explained that it does not support your belief. It was Romans 9:11 re Esau and Jacob.

How do you explain: There are none righteous...no not one.
From Romans 3:10
 
You claimed that the Catholic Church has changed it's teaching on baptism, so the burden of proof is on you.

I see the Early Church Fathers teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.
I see the St. Augustine teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.
I see the Council of Trent teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.
I see the Catholic Church today teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.

So where is the change?
 
I don't know where you got that idea from, but it sounds like a fable to me. When you read the writings of the Early Church Fathers you will see that they had a very good understanding of what baptism is and why it is absolutely necessary for salvation. There was no mention of 'community building', 'blessings', etc.. Here's a few examples:

The Early Church Fathers on the Necessity of baptism

Many people have converted to the Catholic Church after they started reading the Early Church Fathers!

Hi Tradidi,

You seem knowledgeable about the Catholic Church and their traditions. Were you at one time a Catholic?

Could you tells us what it means to have “converted to the Catholic Church”. It seems to mean that a person was Christian then after reading the Early Church Fathers, they converted to the Catholic Church.

This may not be what you mean. Could you clarify?



Thanks, JLB
 
I thought I did answer those questions, several times.

No, God is not responsible for man's choices.
No, God is not responsible for creating man with weaknesses.

But that does not change the fact that man IS born with certain weaknesses. If you are looking for someone to blame, you could try the devil or Adam and Eve, but that is not going to change the facts. Think for example about a child being born with birth defects. Would you blame God for that? Would you blame the child? Or would you deny that birth defects do happen? So it is with Original Sin. You seem to reason that "neither the child nor God can be blamed for Original Sin, therefore it cannot exist". But that's faulty reasoning.


You make two mistakes here. First, God did not "put the desires for sinning" in Paul, as I explained above. Second, Paul himself explains that he is not guilty (subjectively) of certain sins he commits (objectively). Concupiscence of the flesh makes us weaker to resist temptations, sometimes so weak that we commit sin (objectively) even though we do not want to commit sin (subjectively). In this case, the sin was committed (objectively) but we are not regarded as guilty (subjectively). This is what St. Paul is explaining in Romans chapter 7. But if you start from the dogma that Original Sin does not exist, then of course you are going to have to twist and "interpret" everything Paul says on this subject.



I thought we had the Bible as a common ground to build upon, but when we can no longer rely on the meaning of words then I think there is nothing left to discuss.

Man is born with certain desires God created man with and it is man's responsibility to control those desires under control and that is a matter of choice. Weakness comes as a result of the choice not to practice self control and not a nature one is born with. I do not find a verse that says God created man with certain weaknesses. Again, weakness (or being strong) is due to choice, not how man is born.

--I did not say God put in man a desire to sin. God put in man the desire to sleep, eat, drink, procreation, companionship etc. Nothing sinful about these desires in and of themselves as long as man keeps them under control.

--Paul never said he was not guilty of sins he committed.

What Paul is explaining in the latter part of Rom 7 is the difficulty the Jew had living under the OT law using himself as an example. The OT law of Moses required strict, flawless, perfect law keeping to be justified by that law and Paul is simply explaining the difficulty of trying to keep that ;aw perfectly. Just one sin would put one under the curse of that law. All that OT law did was condemn, it showed no mercy. Paul compares that life under the OT law of Moses to how it "now" is as a Christian in Christ (Rom 8:1) where there is now condemnation. Calvinists try and change the Rom 7 passage to force their idea of total depravity into it when such an idea is not there.

Original sin is not found in the Bible. As shown in earlier posts that idea came from uninspired men centuries later after Christ. The idea of OS was not taught in the OT nor believed by the Jews and it was not taught in the NT nor believed by first century Christians. Paul spends 3 chapters (Rom 1-3) in proving all (Jew and Gentile) are sinners yet nowhere does he remotely allude to the idea of OS. He proves Jew and Gentile are sinners by transgression they committed (1 Jn 3:4). If OS is prominently taught throughout the Bible beginning in Genesis then why would Paul go to great lengths citing OT verses proving the Jews were sinners when those Jews and Paul would have already known they were born with sin at birth?

Rom 4:15 and 1 Jn 3:4 for sin to exist and person be a sinner there must be a law and that law must be transgressed, This eliminates the idea of OS. OS defines sin differently from the Bible.
 
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I think we're at a wall.
I really don't know what other verses to post or what other ideas of the church to discuss.
You've posted ONE verse regarding being born "neutral" and I explained that it does not support your belief. It was Romans 9:11 re Esau and Jacob.

How do you explain: There are none righteous...no not one.
From Romans 3:10
But Rom 9:11 does prove my point. Neither having done evil means that cannot be called sinners/unrighteous. Neither having done any good means that cannot be called righteous. So they are even, neutral a blank slate. Some try and put the cart before the horse in saying a person is FIRST a sinner BEFORE they even sin or calling a person FIRST righteous BEFORE they even do any righteousness.

What you are depends on what you do. You are not sinner until you sin. You are not righteous until you first do righteousness.

-----------------------------------------------

In Romans chapters 1-3 Paul is dealing with two main groups that made up mankind; Jew and Gentile.
In Rom 3:10 Paul is specifically dealing with the group Jew in proving that are sinners as Rom 3:19 bears that out.

In Rom 3 Paul is showing that the OT law of Moses given to the Jews was an advantage to the Jew. Yet one thing that law could not do is justify the Jew for that law required sinless flawless law keeping. And to show the Jew did not keep that law perfectly Paul cites various verses from the OT proving the Jew did sin therefore no better than the Gentile who also sinned.

So it could be that Paul is using the term "righteous" in Rom 3:10 in an absolute sense, that being, the group Jew is not perfectly, flawlessly sinless.

It could be that Paul is employing a teaching technique called a midrash. Paul took the Rom 3:10 quote from Psalms 14. Yet Psalms 14:5 says "There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous." How can God be in the the generation of the righteous if "none are righteous"?
A midrash (I may not define it perfectly) is taking a quote out of one context and using that quote to make your point in another context. We may call it taking things out of context but Jewish Rabbis used it as a teaching method. Paul's point in Rom 3:10 was to prove to the Jew he had sinned, so Paul uses a quote from David about the fool (Psa 14:1-3) and made it applicable to the group Jew.


More information I found on midrash if you have interest:

“In more general terms: Midrash is the Hebrew word for interpretation, amplification, exegesis of a holy, revealed text: the written Torah. But the word, Midrash, bears several meanings. In current usage the word Midrash has three levels of meaning, as follows:

“(1) the process, that is, a particular way of reading and interpreting a verse of the Hebrew Scriptures;

“(2) the result of that process, thus a given verse and its interpretation;

“(3) the collection of the results of such a process, that is, the compilation of such interpretations, e.g., concerning a particular book of the Hebrew Scriptures or a particular theological theme . . .”2

At Romans 3.10-18, the apostle (Rabbi) Paul, had a theme: the universality sin. He then went in search of the Hebrew Scriptures to prove his point, and he found some of the harshest statements concerning sin found in the Bible. However, if one read each of those verses of Scripture in their natural contexts, he would find that it was confined and particular, not general, which is how Paul used those texts.

For example, his use of Ecclesiastes 7.20 at Romans 3.10 is not the entire verse, for it reads, “For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.” Paul left off the phrase “and does not sin” at Rom. 3.10. The point Solomon was making in Ecclesiastes was that there is no one on earth among mortals who is sinless, so be careful to live a balanced, godly life, not in self-rightesousness, but not in sin either. Paul’s purpose, however, was to emphasize that humans lack, and are in need of, God’s righteousness.

Paul also wrote that there is none “who seeks after God” (Rom. 3.11), quoting Psalm 14.1-3. Yet many have sought the Lord (Deut. 4.29; 12.5; 1Chron. 16.10, 11; 22.19; Ezra 4.2; 6.21; Job 5.8; Ps. 24.6; 27.8; 69.32; Zech. 8.21; Matt. 6.33; Acts 15.17; 17.27; Heb. 11.6), and the author of Hebrews wrote that God rewards those who diligently seek Him (Heb. 11.6).

There is no contradiction here. The Midrash allows for this interpretation of Romans 3.10-18; it is not meant to be taken literally of each and every human being. Even Calvinist Donald Grey Barnhouse noted the same when he wrote, “But we add that total depravity does not mean that there is no good in man, but that there is no good in man which can satisfy God . . . Now we must not think that this passage [Rom. 3.10-18] is accusing every member of the human race of having committed all of these individual sins. What it is teaching is that the roots of all sin are in all men.”3

Now that is a well-reasoned, balanced view of Paul’s midrash of Romans 3.10-18. Some Calvinists tend to portray mankind as demons and completely neglect the fact that though man’s nature has been tainted from the fall, humans are still created in the image of God.

1 Gary G. Porton, Understanding Rabbinic Midrash (Hoboken: KTAV Publishing House, Inc., 1985), 2-3.

2 Jacob Neusner, “Preface,” Judaism and the Interpretation of Scripture (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, LLC, 2004), vii-viii.

3 Donald Grey Barnhouse, Expositions of Bible Doctrines Taking the Epistle to the Romans as a Point of Departure, Vol. I (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1952), 216-217.
 
What Paul is explaining in the latter part of Rom 7 is the difficulty the Jew had living under the OT law using himself as an example. The OT law of Moses required strict, flawless, perfect law keeping to be justified by that law and Paul is simply explaining the difficulty of trying to keep that ;aw perfectly. Just one sin would put one under the curse of that law. All that OT law did was condemn, it showed no mercy. Paul compares that life under the OT law of Moses to how it "now" is as a Christian in Christ (Rom 8:1) where there is now condemnation. Calvinists try and change the Rom 7 passage to force their idea of total depravity into it when such an idea is not there.

Romans 7 is about Paul (recounting) his early struggles with the sin he that discovered in his flesh and he is showing us we all have the same issue and that we all overcome the lustful desires of sin in our physical body by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6,7,8 are dealing with this subject of the believer and the sinful cravings of the physical body that every born again Christian must learn to deal with, by the Spirit; by the power of the Holy Spirit.



JLB
 
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You claimed that the Catholic Church has changed it's teaching on baptism, so the burden of proof is on you.

I see the Early Church Fathers teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.
I see the St. Augustine teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.
I see the Council of Trent teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.
I see the Catholic Church today teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.

So where is the change?
I'm not here to argue history.
You can read up on this yourself and there's no need for you to believe me.


Here's the idea quick:

The Apostolic Fathers believed baptism was necessary for salvation.
This did not include infants.

Later on, about 150 AD or so, infants began to be baptized for the reasons I had posted previously. NOT BECAUSE it was believed they would go to hell if they died.

In the year 400AD, approx. AUGUSTINE taught that we are IMPUTED with original sin, which is different than suffering the CONSEQUENCES of it. This made us all responsible for Adam's sin.
At this time it became NECESSARY for infants to be baptized because if they died sans baptism he taught that they would go to hell for having O.S. on their soul.

The Council of Trent: I posted the link to what the church taught at that time.

What the church teaches now: I posted many paragraphs from the CCC which show that babies DO NOT go to hell if they are not baptized.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the official teaching of the CC.

You can read it for yourself and study some history on Original Sin and HOW the teaching changed from the very beginning to about 325AD and beyond and what the church teaches TODAY.

P.S. I proved my points with legitimate links by the CC.
Perhaps YOU can list some links providing support for what YOU believe?
 
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