Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[JLB]

The question as posed is "Works based Salvation" as the question uses the word "Required".
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?
Thus, you must obey to be saved. The subtle difference, the way I would state it so as it is now WORKS BASED salvation would be:
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments always present in saved individuals?
Caveat 1: Exception .. conversion on death bed or similar circumstance in which person does not have opportunity to show obedience.
Caveat 2: Perfect Obedience is not possible, observable obedience is always observable but cannot be defined quantitatively.
To this I agree

You’re very insightful!


JLB

 

[JLB]

I think it is a result of salvation.

Most Christians hold to this view.

So the question is:

How does one obey the Gospel so that they are saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

• Galatians 2:16 Amplified Bible (AMP) yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. And even we [as Jews] have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law. By observing the Law no one will ever be justified [declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty].
• Galatians 5:2 (AMP) Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.

Galatians 5:4 seems to be a stern warning about claiming you are saved by your obedience (a requirement according to the question)

Is there a difference between the “works” in James and the works of the law, since Abraham was 430 years before Moses?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we have an issue with semantics and not doctrine. The question as posed is "Works based Salvation" as the question uses the word "Required".
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?
Thus, you must obey to be saved. The subtle difference, the way I would state it so as it is now WORKS BASED salvation would be:
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments always present in saved individuals?
Caveat 1: Exception .. conversion on death bed or similar circumstance in which person does not have opportunity to show obedience.
Caveat 2: Perfect Obedience is not possible, observable obedience is always observable but cannot be defined quantitatively.
To this I agree.

We both think, I believe, that all Christians obey. You think obedience is a requirement, I think it is a result of salvation.

• Galatians 2:16 Amplified Bible (AMP) yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. And even we [as Jews] have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law. By observing the Law no one will ever be justified [declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty].
• Galatians 5:2 (AMP) Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.
• Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:4–5).
• Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law. As for the four church fathers named above—and many others like them—it is neither my nor their defenders’ place to assure the Christian world that surely God justified them by faith alone even though they themselves did not hold to a sola fide view of justification

Galatians 5:4 seems to be a stern warning about claiming you are saved by your obedience (a requirement according to the question)



Well, James is going to be a difficult one to explain away (as I assume my verses would be for you).
Paul and James seemingly contradict yourself. ( I mentioned two of Paul's verses above) Paul seems to be saved by Grace along thru faith alone in Christ alone; James seems to say we are saved by works. I won't try to exegete James .. but the summary is this:
Short summary: Paul states doctrine of how we are justified before God
James states doctrine of how we are justified before Man


Longer Explanation
James contends so earnestly for works that will justify believers before man. It must be remembered, however, that James is here concerned with the appearance that our professions make to the outside world, rather than of our acceptance before God. Men can judge only by the outward appearance, and works alone can justify the Christian profession in man’s sight. God looks on the heart and before Him no works can avail. Before God man must be justified by faith alone. This, James clearly asserts to be true as illustrated in the case of Abraham. (James 2:13 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.)

Aside: I had difficulty with James for a long time. On it's face, I agree that is it supports your thesis; though I never though Paul supported your thesis.

Hi Fred,,,
Interesting thread.
I agree with you that the wording in the O.P. is not very clear.

We are saved by faith alone.
We then are required to obey God.

Paul and James agree....
but it's too late now.

Catch you tomorrow.
( I'd like to understand your footnote better BTW...)
Here it is:

FOOTNOTE: Martin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” [he ] failed to recognize that James’s teaching on works complemented—not contradicted—Paul’s teaching on faith. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on the works that exemplify that justification.
If this is not true, we have contradiction ... and God never contradicts himself

 

[JLB]

Aside: I had difficulty with James for a long time. On it's face, I agree that is it supports your thesis; though I never though Paul supported your thesis.

Actually the entire book of Romans deals with the principle found in James.


JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Most Christians hold to this view.

How does one obey the Gospel so that they are saved?

Maybe semantics and not fair to change another's question, but I prefer the question to be: How does one obey the Gospel so [to show] that they are saved?

Caveat: No one can do it this side of glory does it perfectly.
Caveat 2: Each has different abilities (gifts) so obedience will vary and thus I can't state it quantitatively.
Caveat 3: I apologize for my answer .... the question is general, so my answer may be off target.
__________
We made be opening a new 'can of worms' here ... lol ...

We can't ... my qualification... of ourselves (IMO) ... by this I mean, it is the Spirit that changes our desires to cause us to freely desire to obey. We obey the Spirit by:
1) Not grieving the Spirit (disobeying God) and confession when we do
2) Not quenching the Spirit (Yield to Spirit, non resistance to God's will, service
3) Walk in the Spirit (have a good attitude)
The Spirit does the rest for the most part ...

Preamble
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee". He gives two reasons for not venturing to boast of his works before God: first, that if he has any good works, he does not see in them anything of his own; and, secondly, that these works are overwhelmed by a multitude of sins. Whence it is, that the conscience derives from them more fear and alarm than security.

Proof Texts

• John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as he Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Human energy could never produce “living waters,” and certainly not in “rivers.” This statement is keyed to the Infinite. Any service other than that which was foreordained for the individual, though valuable in itself, cannot be called “good works” because it is not the personal beneficial outworking of the will of God.
• John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for [otherwise] apart from Me [that is, cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
• John 16:8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world about [the guilt of] sin [and the need for a Savior], and about righteousness, and about judgment
• John 16:13But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth [full and complete truth]. For He will not speak on His own initiative, but He will speak whatever He hears [from the Father—the message regarding the Son], and He will disclose to you what is to come [in the future]. 14 He will glorify and honor Me, because He (the Holy Spirit) will take from what is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this I said that He [the Spirit] will take from what is Mine and will reveal it to you.
• Romans 5:5 Such hope never disappoints or deludes or shames us, for God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who has been given to us.
• Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.
• Romans 8:13 for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.
• Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.
• Romans 12:1b present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. “Good works” is not experienced by all believers. “Good works” are the exercise of the Spirit’s gift where a gift is the direct undertaking and manifestation of the Spirit working through the believer. It is the Spirit of God doing something, and using the believer to accomplish it; rather than the believer doing something, and calling on God for help in the task.
• Romans 12:6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
• 1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]? And if in fact you received it [from God or someone else], why do you boast as if you had not received it [but had gained it by yourself]?
• 
  
• 1 Corinthians 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
• 
  
• 1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for [a reason] the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. … [gifts vary in value] 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
• 1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the [remarkable] grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not without effect. In fact, I worked harder than all of the apostles, though it was not I, but the grace of God [His unmerited favor and blessing which was] with me.
• 2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficiently qualified in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency and qualifications come from God.

 

[JLB]

Maybe semantics and not fair to change another's question, but I prefer the question to be: How does one obey the Gospel so [to show] that they are saved?

Caveat: No one can do it this side of glory does it perfectly.
Caveat 2: Each has different abilities (gifts) so obedience will vary and thus I can't state it quantitatively.
Caveat 3: I apologize for my answer .... the question is general, so my answer may be off target.
__________
We made be opening a new 'can of worms' here ... lol ...

We can't ... my qualification... of ourselves (IMO) ... by this I mean, it is the Spirit that changes our desires to cause us to freely desire to obey. We obey the Spirit by:
1) Not grieving the Spirit (disobeying God) and confession when we do
2) Not quenching the Spirit (Yield to Spirit, non resistance to God's will, service
3) Walk in the Spirit (have a good attitude)
The Spirit does the rest for the most part ...

Preamble
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee". He gives two reasons for not venturing to boast of his works before God: first, that if he has any good works, he does not see in them anything of his own; and, secondly, that these works are overwhelmed by a multitude of sins. Whence it is, that the conscience derives from them more fear and alarm than security.

Proof Texts

• John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as he Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Human energy could never produce “living waters,” and certainly not in “rivers.” This statement is keyed to the Infinite. Any service other than that which was foreordained for the individual, though valuable in itself, cannot be called “good works” because it is not the personal beneficial outworking of the will of God.
• John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for [otherwise] apart from Me [that is, cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
• John 16:8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world about [the guilt of] sin [and the need for a Savior], and about righteousness, and about judgment
• John 16:13But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth [full and complete truth]. For He will not speak on His own initiative, but He will speak whatever He hears [from the Father—the message regarding the Son], and He will disclose to you what is to come [in the future]. 14 He will glorify and honor Me, because He (the Holy Spirit) will take from what is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this I said that He [the Spirit] will take from what is Mine and will reveal it to you.
• Romans 5:5 Such hope never disappoints or deludes or shames us, for God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who has been given to us.
• Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.
• Romans 8:13 for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.
• Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.
• Romans 12:1b present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. “Good works” is not experienced by all believers. “Good works” are the exercise of the Spirit’s gift where a gift is the direct undertaking and manifestation of the Spirit working through the believer. It is the Spirit of God doing something, and using the believer to accomplish it; rather than the believer doing something, and calling on God for help in the task.
• Romans 12:6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
• 1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]? And if in fact you received it [from God or someone else], why do you boast as if you had not received it [but had gained it by yourself]?
• 
  
• 1 Corinthians 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
• 
  
• 1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for [a reason] the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. … [gifts vary in value] 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
• 1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the [remarkable] grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not without effect. In fact, I worked harder than all of the apostles, though it was not I, but the grace of God [His unmerited favor and blessing which was] with me.
• 2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficiently qualified in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency and qualifications come from God.

No unsaved person is saved apart from obeying the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17


No one is saved by “faith alone“, and the phrase “faith alone” is not found in the Bible.


It’s a man made term to promote a man made Gospel.

Understanding both James and Romans and what each is teaching is the key to this.


JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

You’re very insightful!

Apparently not. I losing the vote 4 to 1. I need to buy some votes. :yes

 

[Fastfredy0]

No one is saved by “faith alone“, and the phrase “faith alone” is not found in the Bible.

You are setting up a straw man and shooting it down. It is not whether or not the phrase "faith alone" is found in the bible that is relevant. What is relevant is whether or not the concept of "faith alone" is found that is relevant. Example: the word TRINITY is not found in the Bible, this does not mean the concept is invalid.
Is it your contention the if a word like TRINITY is not in the Bible, then the concept is invalidated?

I gave verses validate the concept of "faith alone", and NOT WORKS. You refuted none of them. You gave me James ... faith without works is dead, etc. I addressed your verses, I said Paul was addressing how we are justified in God's eyes through faith alone and James was addressing how we are justified to the view of MEN by faith and works. You may not agree, but I responded to your verses, you ignored mine.
Galatians 2:16 "a man not justified by works of Law" ... contradicts your thesis that you have to obey to be saved.
Galatians 2:5 "if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace ... contradicts your thesis that you have to obey to be saved.
Romans 4:4-5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth ... contradicts your thesis that you have to obey to be saved.
etc. etc. etc.
Galatians 5:4 WARNS YOU against having your opinion (IMO) ... You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace.

Please, please, please address scripture. Maybe you have an valid explanation. Maybe I have interpreted them incorrectly. Again, I had an explanation for your verses ... maybe I am wrong. The ball is in your court ... I gave a lot of verses, just address the first 3. Tell me how a verse stating, "a man not justified by works of Law" does not contradict the question at hand, "obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation"

Aside: Interesting, that we only live 70ish miles apart. I was chatting with a gal on another Christian Forum while working in Austin ... turned out she lived just 30 miles away. Maybe most of the Christians in the U.S. live in Texas :yes

• Galatians 2:16 Amplified Bible (AMP) yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. And even we [as Jews] have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law. By observing the Law no one will ever be justified [declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty].
• Galatians 5:2 (AMP) Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.
• Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:4–5).
• Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law.

 

[JLB]

Apparently not. I losing the vote 4 to 1. I need to buy some votes. :yes

Once you have dug in to the discussion, you went straight to the appropriate scriptures were most people get hung up, thinking that Paul and James disagree.


Your questions and dialog show this.

Your very insightful.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You are setting up a straw man and shooting it down. It is not whether or not the phrase "faith alone" is found in the bible that is relevant. What is relevant is whether or not the concept of "faith alone" is found that is relevant.

If a person says we are saved by faith alone and grace alone, don’t you see that as a contradiction?

Doesn‘t salvation require both grace and faith working together?

I do.

Therefore it can’t be grace alone or faith alone.


The concept of faith —


Faith, if you understand what James is saying, requires the corresponding action of obedience, to activate it, or make it come alive, otherwise faith remains incomplete, dead, dormant, being inactive and unable to function, and produce the intended divine result, just as a body without a spirit is dead and is unable to function.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


Perfect here means complete.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Not the works of the law.
Not good works.
Not works that earn a wage.

The work or action of obedience; the obedience of faith.


This principle or law of faith is referred to as the “obedience of faith”. Paul teaches the same principle In Romans.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 2:26


JLB

 

[JLB]

I gave verses validate the concept of "faith alone", and NOT WORKS. You refuted none of them.

I don’t intend to “refute” scripture.

I want to find common ground in our beliefs and perception.

I’m thankful you use scripture, and I intend to honor that.


Right now I hope to show that Paul and James teach the same principle of faith.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I said Paul was addressing how we are justified in God's eyes through faith alone

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience for it to function.


Would you like examples?

Faith alone, all by itself is dead, and can not save.

Thus also faith by itself, (alone) if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Tell me how a verse stating, "a man not justified by works of Law" does not contradict the question at hand, "obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation"

The law of Moses has been abolished in His flesh, and taken out of the way.


Now we are called to be in covenant with the Lord Jesus, and walk with Him, and be led by His Spirit.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9




JLB

 

[jerry63935]

We are saved by faith alone.

by grace THROUGH faith Grace is the saving agent by faith we accept it

 

[jerry63935]

How does one obey the Gospel so that they are saved?

jesus said we must be born again when the Holy spirit draws. we must obey the command to be saved in order to be saved. a lost person does not understand this / i did not fully understand this. i stepped out by faith. its our faith that helps us obey .obedience followers salvation not precedes .other wise the law would save us..

 

[WIP]

Isn't obedience an outward reflection of faith? In other words, if I love God and trust Him with all my heart, soul, and strength how could I deny Him and not follow His commands?

This also supports what James was saying when he wrote that our faith without works is a dead faith. Our works would follow our faith and therefore, no works, no true faith.

 

[jerry63935]

Isn't obedience an outward reflection of faith?

i think it is

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn't obedience an outward reflection of faith? In other words, if I love God and trust Him with all my heart, soul, and strength how could I deny Him and not follow His commands?

This also supports what James was saying when he wrote that our faith without works is a dead faith. Our works would follow our faith and therefore, no works, no true faith.

I agree.
But some will say that obedience is not necessary once we are saved.
I forget what forum I'm in...but this is known as OSAS....IOW,,,once we are saved,,,
we can never get unsaved NO MATTER WHAT. This must be wrong or what is the reason for salvation if we could go on living as we want to and be sinning all the time?

Jesus spoke about obedience all the time.

 

[GodsGrace]

by grace THROUGH faith Grace is the saving agent by faith we accept it

I agree that we are saved by grace...
but God sheds His grace on everyone that will accept it.
He does not deny His grace.

So if He sheds His grace on everyone....
then it has to be our FAITH that saves us.
I believe FAITH is the saving agent.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.



Luke 7:50
And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Also, there are many verses that speak about believing.
Would you say that believing is the same as having faith?

If I believe in someone, I have faith in them.
If I have faith in them, I also believe in them.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are setting up a straw man and shooting it down. It is not whether or not the phrase "faith alone" is found in the bible that is relevant. What is relevant is whether or not the concept of "faith alone" is found that is relevant. Example: the word TRINITY is not found in the Bible, this does not mean the concept is invalid.
Is it your contention the if a word like TRINITY is not in the Bible, then the concept is invalidated?

I gave verses validate the concept of "faith alone", and NOT WORKS. You refuted none of them. You gave me James ... faith without works is dead, etc. I addressed your verses, I said Paul was addressing how we are justified in God's eyes through faith alone and James was addressing how we are justified to the view of MEN by faith and works. You may not agree, but I responded to your verses, you ignored mine.
Galatians 2:16 "a man not justified by works of Law" ... contradicts your thesis that you have to obey to be saved.
Galatians 2:5 "if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace ... contradicts your thesis that you have to obey to be saved.
Romans 4:4-5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth ... contradicts your thesis that you have to obey to be saved.
etc. etc. etc.
Galatians 5:4 WARNS YOU against having your opinion (IMO) ... You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace.

Please, please, please address scripture. Maybe you have an valid explanation. Maybe I have interpreted them incorrectly. Again, I had an explanation for your verses ... maybe I am wrong. The ball is in your court ... I gave a lot of verses, just address the first 3. Tell me how a verse stating, "a man not justified by works of Law" does not contradict the question at hand, "obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation"

Aside: Interesting, that we only live 70ish miles apart. I was chatting with a gal on another Christian Forum while working in Austin ... turned out she lived just 30 miles away. Maybe most of the Christians in the U.S. live in Texas :yes

• Galatians 2:16 Amplified Bible (AMP) yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. And even we [as Jews] have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law. By observing the Law no one will ever be justified [declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty].
• Galatians 5:2 (AMP) Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.
• Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:4–5).
• Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law.

Fred,,,
I agree with you but the carpet bombing does not function well.
IF I disagreed with you,,,how could I possibly address all those verses?
Plus,,,it makes it difficult to read.

How's about using one or two verses at a time?