Is physical pain experienced in hell?

[Guest]

Yeah I've heard of the Sodom and Gomorrah story more than once. The fact is, is that Sodom is a place on earth and hell is in the afterlife.

S&G analogy aside, the point I'm illustrating is that a punishment's effect can be ongoing despite the punishing itself not being an ongoing punishment.

How can the effect be ongoing without the punishment itself. If the effect is ongoing, THAT IS PUNISHMENT. Scripture doesn't say punishment lasts for a couple weeks or a couple years then Satan decides that's it, no more. NO. Scripture clearly states eternal punishment. Eternal is forever.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

How can the effect be ongoing without the punishment itself.

For the effects of a punishment to be ongoing, of course there must first actually be a punishment. But, that punishment need not be constant for the effects to be lasting. A stick to the behind of a 7 year old child child one time can have a lifelong effect on that child even if the child lives to be a 100 year old man.

If the effect is ongoing, THAT IS PUNISHMENT. Scripture doesn't say punishment lasts for a couple weeks or a couple years then Satan decides that's it, no more. NO. Scripture clearly states eternal punishment. Eternal is forever.

Not so much Urk. The concept of eternal as we know it is virtually absent from the biblical texts. Most renderings where eternal is used not in reference to God would more appropriately be written as age-lasting. Eternal is very likely NOT forever in the sense that we understand it.

 

[Drew]

Not so much Urk. The concept of eternal as we know it is virtually absent from the biblical texts. Most renderings where eternal is used not in reference to God would more appropriately be written as age-lasting. Eternal is very likely NOT forever in the sense that we understand it.

Agree. I cannot give particular examples, but I know that in at least some texts, the word that gets translated as 'eternal' in the Bible actually can mean "lasting for an age".

Another reason why we need to do the hard work of educating ourselves about the culture and language of the authors of the Bible.

 

[TimothyW]

So what is hell for? I never understood that the wages of sin is death means your soul does not exist. What about the verse that says the worm never dies?

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "Hell". The Hebrew word that is translated as Hell (half of the time) is "Sheol". This just refers to a place to be dead. The other half of the time Sheol is translated "the grave". So what are cemeteries for? A place to be dead, just like Sheol. Have you read Ezekiel 18? Ezekiel said "The soul who sins shall die". Now we have all of these so-called quote/unquote "experts" telling us that a soul can't die. Where is THAT written in the Bible? According to Ezekiel, not only can a soul die but that is exactly what WILL happen to a wicked soul. Now how about the verse that says the worm never dies? A worm is not a soul, is it? Are our "souls" worms now? No, we don't HAVE a soul, we ARE souls. We are not worms. But the passage in Mark where Jesus says "Where the worm dieth not" is remarkably similar to Isaiah 66.:24.
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.†Does this say anything at all about dead people being alive forever? It doesn't. The worms eat dead bodies and the fire burns dead bodies. The worm and fire are not tormenting living people in hell.

There is not one verse in the whole bible that says "Dead people go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead but somehow alive and conscious." But there are many verses in the Bible that tell of the fate of the wicked, that they will perish, they will die, they will be destroyed, they will be no more, they will be as ash, etc etc etc...

The odd part of this conversation is that the people who believe what the Bible doesn't ever say "The wicked will be punished in hell" are the same people who accuse us of not believing the Bible, And we are just believing what the Bible says. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and those who believe in him will not PERISH but have eternal life. (John 3:16) IF anyone should be accused of not believing the Bible, it should be those who believe that nobody perishes, everyone has eternal life, and the wages of sin is NOT DEATH at all.

 

[Guest]

Not so much Urk. The concept of eternal as we know it is virtually absent from the biblical texts. Most renderings where eternal is used not in reference to God would more appropriately be written as age-lasting. Eternal is very likely NOT forever in the sense that we understand it.

Agree. I cannot give particular examples, but I know that in at least some texts, the word that gets translated as 'eternal' in the Bible actually can mean "lasting for an age".

Another reason why we need to do the hard work of educating ourselves about the culture and language of the authors of the Bible.

Did the prophets that were indwelled with the Holy Spirit write 'lasting for an age' or did men who twisted the word of God with 30 different versions write that. God is not confusion, the devil is.

 

[Drew]

Did the prophets that were indwelled with the Holy Spirit write 'lasting for an age' or did men who twisted the word of God with 30 different versions write that. God is not confusion, the devil is.

The point is - and I can prove it - is that in at least some cases, the Hebrew or Greek work that gets translated as "eternal" actually can mean "lasting for an age".

I suggest that most Christians believe in the inspiration of the Bible's original texts, not necessarily the translations.

 

[Guest]

So what is hell for? I never understood that the wages of sin is death means your soul does not exist. What about the verse that says the worm never dies?

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "Hell". The Hebrew word that is translated as Hell (half of the time) is "Sheol". This just refers to a place to be dead. The other half of the time Sheol is translated "the grave".

Have you ever heard of Hades and the lake of fire TimothyW. Sheol is a completely different place.

 

[Joe Domingo]

The odd part of this conversation is that the people who believe what the Bible doesn't ever say "The wicked will be punished in hell" are the same people who accuse us of not believing the Bible, And we are just believing what the Bible says. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and those who believe in him will not PERISH but have eternal life. (John 3:16) IF anyone should be accused of not believing the Bible, it should be those who believe that nobody perishes, everyone has eternal life, and the wages of sin is NOT DEATH at all.

You better preach brother!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Did the prophets that were indwelled with the Holy Spirit write 'lasting for an age' or did men who twisted the word of God with 30 different versions write that. God is not confusion, the devil is.

If it can be dimenstrated that the 'inspired writers' you reference did in fact write texts that more closely meant 'age-lasting' than 'eternal', would you be open to discussing?

 

[TimothyW]

So what is hell for? I never understood that the wages of sin is death means your soul does not exist. What about the verse that says the worm never dies?

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "Hell". The Hebrew word that is translated as Hell (half of the time) is "Sheol". This just refers to a place to be dead. The other half of the time Sheol is translated "the grave".

Have you ever heard of Hades and the lake of fire TimothyW. Sheol is a completely different place.

Are you aware that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek? When the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Greek, the word that they used for Sheol was Hades. Hades is the Greek translation of the Hebrew term "Sheol". So Hades is not a completely different place as you put it. (With no proof, I might add). And as for the Lake of Fire, that term is only used by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelation. And John tells us what he means by the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14. "The lake of fire is the second death." I agree with him. The lake of fire is the second death. The lake of fire is not a place where people who do not have eternal life live forever being burnt alive while they are dead, yet somehow conscious. The lake of fire is the second death, just as the Bible says.

 

[TimothyW]

Urk, how on earth do you read the verse that says "For the wages of sin is death", and come away from it believing that the wages of sin is to never die, but be tormented alive forever in hell? And how do you manage to do that and THEN claim that those who believe that the wages of sin is death don't "really" believe the Bible?

 

[Guest]

Did the prophets that were indwelled with the Holy Spirit write 'lasting for an age' or did men who twisted the word of God with 30 different versions write that. God is not confusion, the devil is.

You are evading the point. The point is - and I can prove it - is that in at least some cases, the Hebrew or Greek work that gets translated as "eternal" actually can mean "lasting for an age".

I suggest that most Christians believe in the inspiration of the Bible's original texts, not necessarily the translations.

Hebrew and Greek men? Do you have proof that these 'men' were the author's of the 66 books.

 

[Guest]

Are you aware that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek? When the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Greek, the word that they used for Sheol was Hades. Hades is the Greek translation of the Hebrew term "Sheol". So Hades is not a completely different place as you put it. (With no proof, I might add). And as for the Lake of Fire, that term is only used by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelation. And John tells us what he means by the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14. "The lake of fire is the second death." I agree with him. The lake of fire is the second death. The lake of fire is not a place where people who do not have eternal life live forever being burnt alive while they are dead, yet somehow conscious. The lake of fire is the second death, just as the Bible says.

Yes, I am aware of that. I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are about the afterlife because I don't know you. You are fairly new to forum. What do you think happens to unbelievers after they die.

 

[chessman]

If the Bible says that Satan exists forever in hell, could you show me that too? I don't know if the Bible says that or not.

I see a distinct difference in the eternal torment of Satan and His demons versus us humans. The passages that I can think of are these:

Rev:20:10 (NASB)And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
​

versus

Rev 20:14b (NASB) This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

I say “maybe†because I have caution here because 1) I’ve not studied this issue as comprehensively as some others have. 2) It is against the grain, so to speak. Yet 3) this answer seems pretty clear to me.

Rev 19 also treats humans differently than Satan and his demons. “these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire†versus “the rest were killed with the swordâ€.


However, even recognizing both of these passages are in the Hebrew Apocalyptical literary style, I still believe they both pretty much say what it seems they say for Satan and his demons and for humans. And they clearly DO NOT say humans are tormented in Hell forever, day and night (as so many people think). Clearly, only Satan and his demons were “tormented, day and night forever and ever†within Rev 19 and 20.

Note how the language (whatever it means) for humans’ treatment is clearly quite different, even in the Hebrew apocalyptical genre, than for Satan and his demons than it is for humans. If John’s vision had meant to record their treatments as being the same, he could have just included them all in the “tormented day and night forever†statement. But he did not. Nor does a statement like that (tormented eternally) appear anywhere else in Scripture that I am aware of WRT humans.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts/analysis of how the Scriptures distinguish between Angels and Humans. Why, I have no idea. Other than I did see a point brought out that fallen Angels “fell†already from Heaven. So they kind-of had their chance, maybe. But that’s very speculative, I admit. Plus, I don’t have to understand all this perfect Justice thing. I’m not cut out for the job.

 

[TimothyW]

Are you aware that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek? When the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Greek, the word that they used for Sheol was Hades. Hades is the Greek translation of the Hebrew term "Sheol". So Hades is not a completely different place as you put it. (With no proof, I might add). And as for the Lake of Fire, that term is only used by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelation. And John tells us what he means by the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14. "The lake of fire is the second death." I agree with him. The lake of fire is the second death. The lake of fire is not a place where people who do not have eternal life live forever being burnt alive while they are dead, yet somehow conscious. The lake of fire is the second death, just as the Bible says.

Yes, I am aware of that. I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are about the afterlife because I don't know you. You are fairly new to forum. What do you think happens to unbelievers after they die.

I believe exactly what the Bible says. Everyone says that, so I'll tell you.

Jesus said that the day is coming when everyone who is in the grave will hear his voice and come out. I believe this. I believe this happens on Judgment Day. Everyone who is dead is resurrected to life so they can stand before Jesus Christ, the Son of God, (He is actually God) and Jesus Christ judges everyone. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says that we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. I believe this happens on Judgment Day. The standard is this: The wages of sin is death. The soul who has sinned shall die. Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18, verse 4 (I think, read all of Ezekiel 18). But the trouble is that everyone has sinned and has fallen short of the glory of God. So God made a way for us, the death of Jesus Christ on the cross pays the debt we owe for our sin. Remember that the wages of sin is death, we owe a death. We are able to claim Christ's death on our behalf. When we do this, our sins are forgiven and we can receive eternal life from Him. Those who reject Jesus Christ can not expect to receive eternal life from Him. Remember that the wages of sin is death. If they reject the offer of Christ's Death on their behalf, they still owe the wages of sin, which is death. They must go to the second death. Death, the second time. Remember that they were resurrected to life on Judgment Day, but they still owe the wages of sin, so they have to pay this. They die, a second time. The second death.

So that's what I believe. Exactly what the Bible says. How about you? Do you believe what the Bible says or do you believe that the wicked will have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What do you think happens to unbelievers after they die.

The fate fate await all in death. That fate would appear to be a perpetual state of unconscious lifelessness. At death the living simply stop living and are no longer living souls who's consciousness will never be vivified again without the means of a resurrection we presume Jesus through God alone, is capable of.

I believe the Bible teaches that there will be a resurrection of bothe the just AND the unjust and that the unjustwill be raised to a period of judgment where they face the possibility of age lasting destruction while the just will be rewarded with life, age lasting.

 

[Guest]

I believe exactly what the Bible says. Everyone says that, so I'll tell you.

Jesus said that the day is coming when everyone who is in the grave will hear his voice and come out. I believe this. I believe this happens on Judgment Day. Everyone who is dead is resurrected to life so they can stand before Jesus Christ, the Son of God, (He is actually God) and Jesus Christ judges everyone. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says that we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. I believe this happens on Judgment Day. The standard is this: The wages of sin is death. The soul who has sinned shall die. Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18, verse 4 (I think, read all of Ezekiel 18). But the trouble is that everyone has sinned and has fallen short of the glory of God. So God made a way for us, the death of Jesus Christ on the cross pays the debt we owe for our sin. Remember that the wages of sin is death, we owe a death. We are able to claim Christ's death on our behalf. When we do this, our sins are forgiven and we can receive eternal life from Him. Those who reject Jesus Christ can not expect to receive eternal life from Him. Remember that the wages of sin is death. If they reject the offer of Christ's Death on their behalf, they still owe the wages of sin, which is death. They must go to the second death. Death, the second time. Remember that they were resurrected to life on Judgment Day, but they still owe the wages of sin, so they have to pay this. They die, a second time. The second death.

So that's what I believe. Exactly what the Bible says. How about you? Do you believe what the Bible says or do you believe that the wicked will have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead?

First off, I believe there are two different judgment thrones, the Bema Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judment. However, believers will not be judged for sin at the Bema. Believers were already judged for sin at the cross when we accepted salvation in this lifetime. Rather, believers will be judged for righteousness and receive rewards or lack of rewards. The GWT is a completely different setting. The GWT is for unbelievers. Revelation 20:13-14 says And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. So according to your beliefs the unbelievers are judged and then never suffer for the sins they committed on earth? :o

 

[TimothyW]

I believe exactly what the Bible says. Everyone says that, so I'll tell you.

Jesus said that the day is coming when everyone who is in the grave will hear his voice and come out. I believe this. I believe this happens on Judgment Day. Everyone who is dead is resurrected to life so they can stand before Jesus Christ, the Son of God, (He is actually God) and Jesus Christ judges everyone. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says that we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. I believe this happens on Judgment Day. The standard is this: The wages of sin is death. The soul who has sinned shall die. Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18, verse 4 (I think, read all of Ezekiel 18). But the trouble is that everyone has sinned and has fallen short of the glory of God. So God made a way for us, the death of Jesus Christ on the cross pays the debt we owe for our sin. Remember that the wages of sin is death, we owe a death. We are able to claim Christ's death on our behalf. When we do this, our sins are forgiven and we can receive eternal life from Him. Those who reject Jesus Christ can not expect to receive eternal life from Him. Remember that the wages of sin is death. If they reject the offer of Christ's Death on their behalf, they still owe the wages of sin, which is death. They must go to the second death. Death, the second time. Remember that they were resurrected to life on Judgment Day, but they still owe the wages of sin, so they have to pay this. They die, a second time. The second death.

So that's what I believe. Exactly what the Bible says. How about you? Do you believe what the Bible says or do you believe that the wicked will have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead?

First off, I believe there are two different judgment thrones, the Bema Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judment. However, believers will not be judged for sin at the Bema. Believers were already judged for sin at the cross when we accepted salvation in this lifetime. Rather, believers will be judged for righteousness and receive rewards or lack of rewards. The GWT is a completely different setting. The GWT is for unbelievers. Revelation 20:13-14 says And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. So according to your beliefs the unbelievers are judged and then never suffer for the sins they committed on earth? :o

How did you get THAT out of what I posted? Yes, I believe they suffer for the sins they committed on earth. I said so. They suffer the ultimate penalty. They die. They die a second time. The second death.
It seems useless to talk to you, since you refuse to listen to a word I say. And you completely IGNORED 2 Corinthians 5:10 which says that we ALL must appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ. We will only have one defense. We must plead guilty as charged, and claim Christ's death as our own. His death on the cross pays the debt we owe, death. The wages of sin is death.

 

[Guest]

How did you get THAT out of what I posted? Yes, I believe they suffer for the sins they committed on earth. I said so. They suffer the ultimate penalty. They die. They die a second time. The second death.
It seems useless to talk to you, since you refuse to listen to a word I say. And you completely IGNORED 2 Corinthians 5:10 which says that we ALL must appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ. We will only have one defense. We must plead guilty as charged, and claim Christ's death as our own. His death on the cross pays the debt we owe, death. The wages of sin is death.

Ceasing to exist is not suffering Tim. If ceasing to exist was true, many people would never have the fear of God in them. Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Notice it says God who works in you. This means that believers have NOTHING to fear because they have conquered death at the cross. Unbelievers however have much to fear. There's a good kind of fear and a bad kind of fear. Fearing God is a good thing, thus good pleasure. I did not ignore 2 Corinthians. The Bema seat and the great white throne are not the same, for many reasons. Do you understand the difference between these two thrones.

 

[TimothyW]

deleted, posted crossed.