Is physical pain experienced in hell?

[Guest]

@Joe Domingo The consuming fire that you speak of is God's fire as in, the fire of love and mercy, getting rid of sin in your life. It's not speaking about fire from hell. It's speaking about an active fire from God as we walk the earth now. Those scriptures have nothing to do with the fire in hell. The fire you speak of refers to sin, and the fire from HEAVEN, NOT HELL. You and TimothyW sound like you are both young in your ministry and are still learning. Blessings.

 

[WIP]

According to the Bible (Romans 6:23) the wages of sin is death. If a person is dead, they do not experience pain.

How do we know this? What about scripture where Jesus talks of "weeping and gnashing of teeth?"

I think weeping and gnashing of teeth could very well mean an awareness of missing out on heaven.
This type of pain is self-inflicted forever.
We will not have bodies.
The pain we experience through our bodies in this life cannot be the same in the spirit world.
If we are tormented forever and ever in the lake of fire, the same as the devil, who is spirit, then it will not be the same as physical pain.

Good food for thought. Thank you.

 

[WIP]

According to the Bible (Romans 6:23) the wages of sin is death. If a person is dead, they do not experience pain.

How do we know this? What about scripture where Jesus talks of "weeping and gnashing of teeth?"

Well, putting the two verses together, and assuming that the Bible does not contain contradictions, what do you think? The verse you quoted does not say they weep and gnash forever, does it? And we know for sure that the wages of sin is death, because the Bible says so. I would say that the weeping and gnashing is done before the sentence of death is carried out.

After reading what you wrote I did some digging and you're right. I could not find where scripture suggests that the weeping and gnashing would last forever. Hmmmm.

 

[TimothyW]

@TimothyW I have seen many posters come and go on here that preach what you preach. It's nothing new to me. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God deity. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is. And why in the world did you think Psalm 37 was talking about hell.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God; Fully God Himself. Psalm 37 is talking about the fate of the wicked. It says they will perish and will be no more. Why don't you accept this? This also agrees with the rest of scripture. Ie Romans 6:23, John 3:16, Ezekiel 18:4, and about 100 other scripture passages. Your doctrine is not supported by the Bible.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

@TimothyW I have seen many posters come and go on here that preach what you preach. It's nothing new to me. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God deity. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is. And why in the world did you think Psalm 37 was talking about hell.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God; Fully God Himself. Psalm 37 is talking about the fate of the wicked. It says they will perish and will be no more. Why don't you accept this? This also agrees with the rest of scripture. Ie Romans 6:23, John 3:16, Ezekiel 18:4, and about 100 other scripture passages. Your doctrine is not supported by the Bible.

Hi Timothy and Urk,

I would also add (particularly in response to urk), what would be an alternative understanding of Psalm 37, that demonstrates Timothy's error. We can say, "it doesn't mean that!" all day, but it helps if we provide a positive argument to support that.

 

[Joe Domingo]

You and TimothyW sound like you are both young in your ministry and are still
learning. Blessings.

I have been in the Lord since my momma took me to Church at 10 years old. That was 35 years ago.

 

[TimothyW]

@Joe Domingo You and TimothyW sound like you are both young in your ministry and are still learning. Blessings.

Thank you. I want to always continue to learn. However, I am not young in the faith. When I was, I believed as you do now. I rejected that doctrine because it contradicts so much of the Bible. It seems like you are unwilling g to examine your beliefs to test if they are Biblical. You should test all of your beliefs to see if they agree with the Bible. I've done this, it is very rewarding.

 

[Joe Domingo]

I did not know that words like Perish and Destroy could be understood in any other way then their definition.

unless we assume Jesus was talking in this spirit ... example ...

Man those Bulls just destroyed the Heat!

Here's the bottom line.

As always two camps.

You have people that believe God's word literally in reference to Hell. It destroys the Soul. And God basically puts a sick soul out of its misery.

Then you have people that take God's word rhetorically and god sits there watching people burn for all eternity. Who knows, the lord may even invite some of the saved to watch as they eat popcorn together. Kinda like going to the movies.

 

[chessman]

Incorrect. Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

I was going to make the same point that TimothyW already has about your reading into this text more than it actually says (people live on in torment versus the punishment itself (death) being eternal) but he’s already covered that. So here’s the problems of your interpretation WRT Rev 20 and Psalm 37:

According to the Bible I read, it says torment. Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Note how here within this Jewish apocryphal language of Rev, you somehow equate “the beast†and “the false prophet†to an actual un-saved person. That’s not what the majority of Biblical scholars think “the beast†and “the false prophet†are here that John speaks of. Note how they also use Scripture to back-up their points. From the ESV Study notes for example:

ESV Study notes: The beast looks like a leopard but has feet like a bear’s, a mouth like a lion’s mouth, and ten horns, and it wages “war on the saints†Thus it resembles all four beasts that Daniel saw emerge from the sea before the Son of Man appeared (Dan. 7:1–8, 21). As those beasts symbolized kingdoms (Dan. 7:17, 23), so this beast, a composite of them all, represents every human empire—Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and their successors

Rev 16:13 (ESV) And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.

​

Your method of interpretation (taking Rev language literally) , for example, would put frogs in Hell for eternity.

So what about the “false prophet� Does John mean this term “false prophet†to be human-beings? Not likely:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
​

Your interpretational method (literal) of Rev would have only two people in Hell. But read on to verse 21:

According to the Bible I read, it says torment. Rev 20:10

According to the Bible that I read it has “the rest†slain by the sword.

Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. (Revelation 19:20-21 ESV)
​

ESV Study notes: Rev. 19:20As in 12:5–8, the forces of evil cannot resist Christ’s power. The beast and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, whereas their followers suffer physical death (19:21). The beast and the false prophet, like the great prostitute, represent not merely individuals but corrupt human institutions.

So what about the correctness of your interpretation versus the accusation that TimothyW’s is:

You have to read the whole chapter to understand what the Bible is saying here. Psalm 37:10 is talking about how your enemies will flee when you stand up for righteousness.

On the face of it, that doesn’t even make sense. Are you seriously saying that a Hymn of praise being sung to God is being sung in worship to God yet it’s about man’s (David’s) ability to stand in righteousness against his earthy enemies? I don’t buy that for one minute.

This chapter has nothing to do with hell.

Wrong!

Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath! Fret not yourself; it tends only to evil. For the evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait for the LORD shall inherit the land. (Psalm 37:8-9 ESV)
​

This is clearly about what God’s final judgment will be like (as every modern translation that puts titles to chapters/sections indicates as much.

The LORD knows the days of the blameless, and their heritage will remain forever;
they are not put to shame in evil times; in the days of famine they have abundance.
(Psalm 37:18-19 ESV)
​

He's talking about how they won't bother you as you walk this earth because of righteousness.

Wrong again.

But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalm 37:38 ESV)
​

Clearly this hymn is about and sung to the LORD and about His righteousness and His final protection of those He calls His own. It’s also contrasting poetry about His final judgment on evil and justice to those He does not call His own as well. It’s not about any earthly person or even earthly times. Clearly Israel suffered and are still suffering here on Earth. Yet, Israel and Christians should, even in the face of persecution and injustice carry on:
Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him, and he will act. He will bring forth your righteousness as the light, and your justice as the noonday. (Psalm 37:5-6 ESV)
These Bible scholars that say these things about Rev and Psalm 37 are not babies in the faith, either.

 

[Guest]

@TimothyW & @chessman Psalm 37 does not mention the word fate, hell, heaven or afterlife or anything that would remotely be close to the afterlife. You guys are so off base, it's unreal. If Psalm 37 isn't talking about earthly people or earthly times then we better start locking our doors because God only has our backs after we die. Please. Bible scholars after reputation, no?

Psalm 37:39 says The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble. Salvation is only granted in this lifetime as you walk the earth. All of Psalm 37 is speaking about the protection of God on this earth. Also Psalm 37 doesn't mention anything about ceasing to exist in hell. If you're seeing that, you're grasping at straws. He's teaching us how to live while we still live on this earth.

I will agree with you on Rev 20:10, but also look at Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. Is it just a coincidence that this follows torment forever and ever. Who is being judged at the great white throne and where is their final destination. Also, PERISH DOES NOT MEAN CEASE TO EXIST. Yes the unrighteous will perish and die and cease to exist in this world, but I'm talking about scriptures that confirm the afterlife.

@Joe Domingo Do you believe Jesus Christ is God deity. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is. You also remind me of the poster @Grappler , making us all feel guilty there is eternal torment in hell. God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves to hell by their unbelief in who Jesus Christ is.

Are you seriously saying that a Hymn of praise being sung to God is being sung in worship to God yet it’s about man’s (David’s) ability to stand in righteousness against his earthy enemies?

That's exactly what I'm saying, because I see no explanation of the afterlife. Bottom line, Psalm 37 doesn't even come close to stating that there will be no pain in hell or that hell isn't eternal. It's apples and oranges here.

 

[TimothyW]

Urk:
There is no verse in the entire Bible that says people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever. If your doctrine were true, someone sometime would have put it in the Bible. However, the Bible does say that the wages of sin is death and the wicked perish. According to the Bible, The soul who sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:4. Jesus said "fear the one who can destroy both body & soul in Gehenna. Jesus also said the way is wide that leads to destruction. Destruction not eternal torment. Why do you insist you are right when there isn't ONE verse in the Bible that agrees with you and there are many that contradict your doctrine?

 

[Guest]

Urk:
There is no verse in the entire Bible that says people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever. Why do you insist you are right when there isn't ONE verse in the Bible that agrees with you and there are many that contradict your doctrine?

Then explain Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46 and Rev 20:10-11.

 

[TimothyW]

Urk:
There is no verse in the entire Bible that says people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever. Why do you insist you are right when there isn't ONE verse in the Bible that agrees with you and there are many that contradict your doctrine?

Then explain Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46 and Rev 20:10-11.

None of those say that bad people go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever.
Explain Romans 6:23, John 3:16, Matthew 7:13, Matthew 10:28, Luke 13:3, 2 Thes 1:9, Jude 7, Ezekiel 18:6, for a start.

None of the verses you gave actually say the wicked remain alive forever in hell experiencing torment forever. The scripture I've shown you proves that the wicked perish and will be no more.
God told Adam that he would die as a result of his sin. God said nothing about eternal torment in hell. In fact, the only one who said a person can sin and never die, as you are claiming, is the deceiver serpent, the devil.

 

[John 8:32]

There is nothing in Genesis 1, 2 and 3 to indicate man was created with an immortal soul. The word soul means a breathing creature...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

soul:

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Here are a few other "souls"...

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the word life is derived from H5315, nephesh, a soul. so moving creatures in the water are living souls. Anything here to indicate that crabs, clams and sea urchins are immortal?

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Same word here for creature.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Again, creature here is rendered from H5315, nephesh. This would include, as my wife would say, "rats, bats and old cats." They have immortal souls do they?

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Here the word life is again, nephesh.

We've already seen that Adam was a breathing creature...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

H5315, nephesh.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Here Adam is naming the living souls, lions, muskrats, vultures and skunks are included.

Now forget what tradition and some man with his collar on backwards has told you, what does God say can happen to a soul?

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

die:

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

God says that souls can die. He doesn't say that if you sin you will burn forever in hell, He says you will die.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Here is the Devil saying that you won't really die, you have an immortal soul that lives on. God says you die, Satan says you have an immortal soul. Believe what you will, but I gotta go with God on this one.

 

[chessman]

@TimothyW & @chessman Psalm 37 does not mention the word fate, hell, heaven or afterlife or anything that would remotely be close to the afterlife. You guys are so off base, it's unreal. If Psalm 37 isn't talking about earthly people or earthly times then we better start locking our doors because God only has our backs after we die.

Look man, I understand Psalm 37 is discussing the earthly struggles/times that we all (even David) experience. I never said that it didn't. My point is that the worship element within it, poetically points to the ultimate victory/justice that comes only through Jesus' final judgment. If you disagree with that, fine. I wouldn’t expect this hymn to be where the conclusive evidence to answer this question lies to begin with. It’s poetic after all.

I'm not quit sure how you come to the conclusion that “salvation is granted in this lifetimeâ€, but whatever. I’ve stated my case and others reading can evaluate what you (and I, and the ESV notes, etc.) say about Psalm 37 and draw their own conclusions.

Psalm 37:39 says The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble. Salvation is only granted in this lifetime as you walk the earth

He's teaching us how to live while we still do live on this earth.

I think that’s very true. I find that message in Psalm 37 as well. I do not find “salvation is granted in this lifetime†within Psalm 37, however.

WRT your comment:

Bible scholars after reputation, no?

and

You and TimothyW sound like you are both young in your ministry and are still learning. Blessings

If that’s meant to irk (Urk) me and TimotyW and Joe, it worked, for me anyway. However, there’s no logical defense for your case within comments such as that. Not to mention that I never said or even implied that I was a Bible Scholar. You’re the one that has implied you are so much more mature than the rest of the members here that disagree with your studied conclusions of eternal torment for humans in Hell. But you clearly stand against the true Bible Scholar’s opinion about Psalm 37 as example here:

ESV committee Study notes: Psalm 37. This can be called a wisdom psalm because it is a hymn that reflects on themes normally dealt with in the Wisdom Literature. In particular, it addresses the problem caused when godless people prosper; it helps the faithful to see that it really is better to stay loyal to the Lord—a loyalty expressed in contentment, honest dealing, generosity, and just speech. The Lord will make the distinction between the two groups clear in his own time, and the faithful must wait patiently.
​

Clearly there’s the TWO aspects of this Psalm. You point out the one (earthly struggles, which I never said was not there) but you do not acknowledge the other aspect of this Psalm (patience with the Lord’s own time). I will not argue any longer about it or call you names because of your view. In my immaturity I simply find Psalm’s patience message consistent with the rest of the Bible’s teaching:

Psalm 37:38 But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

Psalm 52:5 (ESV) 5 But God will break you down forever; he will snatch and tear you from your tent; he will uproot you from the land of the living.

Psalm 104:35 (ESV) 35 Let sinners be consumed from the earth, and let the wicked be no more! Bless the Lord, O my soul! Praise the Lord!
​

James 1:10-11 But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower11 For the sun rises with a scorching wind and withers the grass; and its flower falls off and the beauty of its appearance is destroyed; so too the rich man in the midst of his pursuits will fade away.

Matthew 5:5 (NASB) 5 “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

2 Peter 2:9 (NIV) 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
​

Note also here how it’s a “day of judgment†not an “eternity of tormentâ€. But I’m not claiming this is a knock-down verse against an eternity of torment either. I could view it either way.

But I don’t see any other passages that teach “eternal torment†as you are claiming there are upon studying this issue. Which leads me to my final comment to you.

I’m personally not dogmatic about this issue. We may never know in this life the final effect(s) of God’s judgment and punishment of those He calls goats. It’s his punishment to impute. And there will be punishment for sure and Hell is real. I’ve never said otherwise. But I can say after studying this issue that the idea of “eternal torment†is not described in the text of the Bible as clearly as you say it is. Which is why you are struggling with quoting Scriptures that do teach it and have resorted to name calling. Because you cannot (have not) produce any. You keep pointing to some that are just not saying what you say they are when you really look at them with an open-mind to being wrong. But again, whatever. I’m not trying to win any argument just to win the argument. I am still maturing.

If you could quote some Scripture(s) that taught it, I’d personally be all for it. If it were up to me and my sense of punishment, I’d be all about eternally tormenting Hitler, Stalin, etc. Also, I can see the logical/technical case for even someone rejecting their 100% holy creator (God) and thusly technically justifying their receiving an eternity of torment in Hell for it (as I believe Satan will).

All I’m saying is that I don’t find the evidence (for eternal torment of humans) in any Scripture as it is for Satan and his demons. What’s the difference between humans' eternal torment and Satan's eternal torment, I have no idea. But God does.

However, believe me, I understand that my opinion is not the majority/traditional opinion in my community of brothers/sisters. I’d guess that 95% of my fellow church members and friends hold your position about eternal punishment of the human goats. And 100% of my current and past pastors hold it as well. I don’t talk about it much as I typically get the same reaction that you give.

It may not be for us to actually know at this time one way or the other, so I get along with both positions (though I do study the evidence and am willing to discuss it rationally with others).

Psalm 73:17 (ESV)17 until I went into the sanctuary of God;then I discerned their end.
​

From post #9 way back on 4-2002013, Matt 10:

Everything that is secret will be brought out into the open. Everything that is hidden will be uncovered. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight. What is whispered in your ear, shout from the rooftops. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but can’t kill the soul. Instead, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Take care, Chessman

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=96567]TimothyW[/MENTION] & [MENTION=94584]chessman[/MENTION], I apologize if I came off controlling. It does get a little crazy in here sometimes. It's just that I can't get past Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46 and Rev 20:10-11 and the words eternal and punishment and the great white throne. Unbelievers are judged at the GWT and they're released into hell. The definition of eternal is forever and punishment and fire means what it means. This is basic stuff.

 

[jeff77]

I still don't know for sure what I believe about the physical pain but I have never heard from any spiritual leader such as a pastor, youth minister, Christian author etc... that says hell is not eternal. I have to say that I trust their interpretation that scripture says that hell is eternal more than anyone posting on this forum. Im not trying to be rude by saying this, I'm just being honest. I know that Dr. W.A. Criswel supports the eternal hell position. Just to name one.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I still don't know for sure what I believe about the physical pain but I have never heard from any spiritual leader such as a pastor, youth minister, Christian author etc... that says hell is not eternal. I have to say that I trust their interpretation that scripture says that hell is eternal more than anyone posting on this forum. Im not trying to be rude by saying this, I'm just being honest. I know that Dr. W.A. Criswel supports the eternal hell position. Just to name one.

I understand where you are coming from, and we could list all the people who support your view and then list all the famous Pastors and scholars that support our position but what would that demonstrate? You see, your reasoning here at its core is fallacious in nature, it's an appeal to authority and majority. The eternal torment view of hell (note no Conditionalists deny that there is an eternal punishment, we just don't think that means what you believe) is not true based on a certain number of Pastor's recognizing its truthfulness, what matters is what Scripture actually says.

Simply because someone is a Pastor or spiritual leader does not mean their interpretation is correct on this matter, as many Pastors disagree on all kinds of subjects even the nature of hell. So I would warn you and urge you to think for yourself and look to see what interpretation is most faithful to not only the context of the given passage, but also all the other passages on the subject.

It was because I actually studied the Scriptures for myself and removed all the culturally imposed presuppositions that I ended up changing my position on this.

Also, the reason why I think this is important is because it involves the very nature of God. Would we want to warn people that God will torture them forever, when that may indeed be a distortion of his justice, or of course vise versa. It would be very wrong of me to tell someone that wouldn't happen to them, when in fact it would if I were wrong.

Something to think about for you I hope.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Joe Domingo]

I still don't know for sure what I believe about the physical pain but I have never heard from any spiritual leader such as a pastor, youth minister, Christian author etc... that says hell is not eternal. I have to say that I trust their interpretation that scripture says that hell is eternal more than anyone posting on this forum. Im not trying to be rude by saying this, I'm just being honest. I know that Dr. W.A. Criswel supports the eternal hell position. Just to name one.

Well here's the thing. Hell is Eternal. And Satan and his Demons are have been promised to be tormented in it forever. These beings are not Human, they have seen the Holiness of God. They have been in Heaven. And yet they chose to rebel against God.

On the other hand, we have not been to Heaven. We have not seen God in all his Glory. And we are not born eternal beings. How could we be - when the Word says that the Gift of God is Eternal life. Why would we need eternal life as a gift from God if we are born eternal?

And so those who go to Hell, will be eternally destroyed in the fire.

This means God will not change his mind about that person's annihilation. It's final. True death. The second death. D e a t h

OMG! Bingo!

Also, the reason why I think this is important is because it involves the
very nature of God. Would we want to warn people that God will torture them
forever, when that may indeed be a distortion of his justice, or of course vise
versa. It would be very wrong of me to tell someone that wouldn't happen to
them, when in fact it would if I were wrong.

Do you know how many people have been turned off from believing in God because of that teaching?!!

I'm almost loosing my brother and my dad because of this - it's very personal for me.

 

[jeff77]

Yes Doulos, I understand what your saying, but I do think for my self. When I am studying scripture and there is something I'm not sure about I research and ask questions, but to come to my conclusion I am more likely to trust the interpretation of people that have been ordained ministers for 50+ years than someone I never even heard of on the internet.
For those of you that believe the scripture says that hell is not eternal, did you come to that conclusion all by yourself? Or are there other people who told you about it?