I tried to say that I know you and the other posters are not "Universalist". I wish he didn't have to mention the Universalist in this article, because I thought the main point is that the Greek word aionaion can be used to describe "for an age" or "forever" depending on the context.
I understand, but this objection is not relevant to this debate (and I don't say that to try and be insulting), we Conditionalists do not disagree with this understanding of aionios or the Hebrew word olam.
But based on how that word is used in other verses in the Bible it most likely means "forever" when talking about hell. So in other words he is saying hell is forever and NOT for an age, or for a finite time.
Yes, I totally agree with this representation. Hence I am not a universalist, because to make the argument that it is not forever or eternal is to make the argument for universalism.
Also Dolous, you totally have me lost in the second half of your response and not because it doesn't make sense but because whatever your saying is beyond me.
I apologize for any confusion, I always do my best to speak clearly, but perhaps in my haste I jumbled my speech. Please forgive me.
I was attempting to illustrate the similarities and differences that we have in understanding this word. Where the agreement ends and disagreement begins.
Let's use an example to help flesh out how this disagreement works itself out.
And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Mt 25:46(LEB)
I'm guessing when you read this verse and see the phrase "eternal punishment," you think of some kind of forever lasting in conscious existence sort of punishment. When I simply do not see that here, the text says the that punishment endures forever, yet it does not specify in any detail what that punishment is. The presupposition or rather assumption made by traditionalists here, is that a being has to continue to exist in order to have a continued punishment. That a being that no longer has a conscious existence any longer and is dead, has had their punishment come to an end.
I would retort back and say that is ultimately special pleading, that it can be easily explained how this destruction can said to be eternal. We agree that this second death in some sense also manifests itself in separation from God, though we do not believe it is where the wicked are made immortal or sustained so that they are therefore or immortal.. or especially not in essence immortal... but rather that the wicked perish.. or die.. are destroyed by this eternal fire. By dying to this final fate, they miss out on what blessings they could have received through God.. eternal LIFE!
Imagine for a moment, that you are one of those to suffer this fate, that you see the righteous moving on to eternal life, riches and blessings infinite, and you... you will never taste this.. if you only you would have repented and believed. The disappointment and then the realization of the terror you are about to endure and then the end of everything. I think the thought is terrifying, though I will grant certainly not as terrifying as being tortured for ever and ever. Though I have never seen God execute Justice ANYWHERE in Scripture by torturing someone, the ultimate form of God's punishment revealed from Genesis through Revelation is death.. destruction. And if you would like to discuss texts like Revelation 13, or Revelation 20:10 where it seemingly looks like God punishes people with torture then I will gladly discuss with you what those texts really mean given the literary genre.
To state it plainly, your position believes one has to still exist to be punished, and we disagree. We believe the destruction that lasts for eternity is a punishment that never ends, because there is no release from that ultimate fate, but a forever separation, and no hope for return.
Also, have you ever heard that the concept of time doesn't even exist in the afterlife?
Yes I have, it was what I was taught when I first became a Christian and I didn't question it until after I started studying the Bible more in depth. I don't believe the present creation is simply thrown in the garbage to be done away with once and for all, but rather it is made new. In Revelation 21 we see the unveiling of the new heavens and new EARTH, that's right we aren't going to be dwelling in some kind of spiritual existence we are all together unfamiliar with for eternity, we will dwell in a restored and redeemed EARTH! Where the heaven city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, and it will be declared that God's dwelling place is with man once again like it was in the Garden.
You see this is the problem with so many people's soteriology (study of salvation) and theology in general, they take it out of the creational theme that is set forth in Genesis, that God created a universe and a planet and a people.. and he created them to be good. This creation however was subjected to futility due to Adam's sin, but subjected in hope that one day it would be restored through Jesus Christ, where all things are made new and God's original intent for creation is not only restored but even exaggerated beyond what any of us could imagine.
One of the things God created was time, God created time.. and time is good essentially. Time will be redeemed in the new creation where our future existence is described in this way.
in order that he might show in the
coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness upon us in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:7(LEB)
The Greek word here for ages is "aiosin" which is the plural form of the Greek word "aion" which means age.
67.143 αἰώνa, ῶνος m: a unit of time as a particular stage or period of history—‘age, era.’
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (647). New York: United Bible Societies.
As this lexicon agrees with every other lexicon I own, this word age refers to a "unit of time." Or in the case of Ephesians 2:7, it is referring to the coming ages, denoting that in eternity there will in fact be time!
If that were the case then this might be one of those things that Bible says is beyond our understanding and it will only be revealed to us when we get to Heaven. I'm just kind of thinking out loud here.
I think we should do our best to try and figure out what we can, and then once we have reached our limit, and of course others smarter than us and more learned have reached their limit, submit that we may never know. I do not believe this is one of those instances however.
Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus
