Is Smoking........"sinning willfully"?

[Jethro Bodine]

You'll probably catch shellfish, you sinner.

Yep. With you around I'd expect nothing less than something like that to happen.

 

[Qchan]

I think I understand you but I don't know that I agree.
If it weren't for the grace of God we wouldn't have any faith at all. Without grace we couldn't even process what the gospel says in order to have faith.
So for me it is both grace and faith. I know my faith could fail if it weren't for the grace of God.

Well, the bible says Grace is based on faith and faith alone:
Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

 

[Deborah13]

Well, the bible says Grace is based on faith and faith alone:
Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

To me it does not say grace is Based on faith.
Do you believe you can have faith without God's grace. By His grace/favor, kindness/mercy, He sends His Holy Spirit to draw us to Him. If that doesn't happen one cannot have faith to begin with. Correct?
And if He were to withdraw His Holy Spirit could one stay in faith?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

The only reason anyone has the desire to be reformed is because the Holy Spirit draws them to Him. If the Holy Spirit does not draw them, they will not have a desire to be reformed.

Yeah, well I use to believe that too. Not any more.
The following passages, and the fact I'd been meeting people in forums who once believed, but who had stopped believing, and who wanted to believe again but could not, changed my mind about the famous belief in the church that because a person wants to be saved means they're okay with God.

"...like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12:16-17 NASB)

22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (Matthew 7:22 NASB)

8 "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' 9 "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' 10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11 "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' 12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' (Matthew 25:8-12 NASB)

In these passages, do you think the evidence of their desire means the Holy Spirit is drawing them? I don't think so.

God forbid, that I should be a stumbling block to anyone who desires to turn their life around with such a doctrine based on such a small and difficult portion of scripture.

It's difficult because the church has this bad habit, in general, of not taking scripture for what it plainly says and instead rationalizing it's plain truths away to defend centuries of pet doctrines piling up in the church. I am amazed at how often I'll post plain words of scripture with plain explanation but the person I'm posting it to simply can't see it right in front of them because they have been told over and over and over by the church that it means something else. I got called on the carpet about this and I stopped doing that.

And as far as it being the source of stumbling for someone, surely you didn't miss how careful I was to say the person who finds themselves in the position of having once believed, but doesn't now and wants to, but can't, needs to assess the situation between them and God with the help of some believers, not apply the truth of not being able to repent in a legalistic kind of way.

 

[Qchan]

To me it does not say grace is Based on faith.
Do you believe you can have faith without God's grace. By His grace/favor, kindness/mercy, He sends His Holy Spirit to draw us to Him. If that doesn't happen one cannot have faith to begin with. Correct?
And if He were to withdraw His Holy Spirit could one stay in faith?

I'm thinking you're misunderstanding me.

You have two covenants presented in the bible. You have Mosaic Law and you have Grace. Under Grace, you only need faith.
See what I'm saying now?

Now, once you gain the Holy Spirit, you cannot lose it, for the Holy Spirit seals you until the day of resurrection (Ephesians 1:13).

 

[Deborah13]

And as far as it being the source of stumbling for someone, surely you didn't miss how careful I was to say the person who finds themselves in the position of having once believed, but doesn't now and wants to, but can't, needs to assess the situation between them and God with the help of some believers, not apply the truth of not being able to repent in a legalistic kind of way.

My intention was never to accuse you of any such thing. In fact, I was thinking about an instance that occur in a church my friend was attending in Corpus Cristi where the pastor had formed a whole doctrine around these verses. I can only hope the lady in that church found another pastor who would take the time to pray with her and deal with her, as you say, as an individual case.

changed my mind about the famous belief in the church that because a person wants to be saved means they're okay with God.

Many of the things that you believe is what I heard in the church.

(Hebrews 12:16-17 NASB)

These verses are not talking about Esau repenting in the sense of repenting to God for sin. His father had given the promise to Jacob and would not take it back and give it to Esau. It does not speak to the salvation of either of the brothers. I glad Issac didn't reverse it. If he did, I believe we would be living under a covenant of works rather than grace but that is another subject.
Paul does use this conversation between Esau and his father to warn against rejecting the Gospel because if they do they loose their entitlement to the heavenly birthright, there is no other means to salvation.
We have to be careful with Hebrews, always keeping in mind what they believed. They believed they were entitled because they were Jews, born of Abraham. Paul is here telling them that because Esau was firstborn didn't guarantee him the firstborn's rights and privileges. They were God's firstborn chosen people but they need not think that they could reject the Gospel and still be entitled to salvation.

22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (Matthew 7:22 NASB)

Works salvation. But Lord 'I' did this and 'I' did that. So He somehow owes them salvation? 2He said, He Never knew them. They had never been saved by grace and faith.

"Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' 12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' (Matthew 25:8-12 NASB)

This is the Supper of the Bridegroom and the Bride. They were too late, they no longer had the Holy Spirit. So when the time came they weren't ready. They had the old oil of the old covenant which ran out but they never filled their lamps with the new oil of the new covenant, the Gospel of the Messiah. So He says, I don't know you.

So that's my take on those scriptures.

 

[Deborah13]

See what I'm saying now?

Yup, and I agree.

Now, once you gain the Holy Spirit, you cannot lose it, for the Holy Spirit seals you until the day of resurrection (Ephesians 1:13).

Because of other scriptures I believe that it may be possible for one to reject that salvation and no longer be sealed, completely by their choice. By the same token, I don't believe this happens because someone backslides into some sin or hasn't overcome something in their lives that is sin. I also don't believe this can happen to an immature Christian. Paul talks about carnal Christians and he never says they are not saved. I do believe that the Lord uses His rod, staff, Holy Spirit, and any other means necessary to get His children in line. I am absolutely positive about that last one. 2

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My intention was never to accuse you of any such thing. In fact, I was thinking about an instance that occur in a church my friend was attending in Corpus Cristi where the pastor had formed a whole doctrine around these verses. I can only hope the lady in that church found another pastor who would take the time to pray with her and deal with her, as you say, as an individual case.

Many of the things that you believe is what I heard in the church.

These verses are not talking about Esau repenting in the sense of repenting to God for sin. His father had given the promise to Jacob and would not take it back and give it to Esau. It does not speak to the salvation of either of the brothers. I glad Issac didn't reverse it. If he did, I believe we would be living under a covenant of works rather than grace but that is another subject.
Paul does use this conversation between Esau and his father to warn against rejecting the Gospel because if they do they loose their entitlement to the heavenly birthright, there is no other means to salvation.
We have to be careful with Hebrews, always keeping in mind what they believed. They believed they were entitled because they were Jews, born of Abraham. Paul is here telling them that because Esau was firstborn didn't guarantee him the firstborn's rights and privileges. They were God's firstborn chosen people but they need not think that they could reject the Gospel and still be entitled to salvation.

Works salvation. But Lord 'I' did this and 'I' did that. So He somehow owes them salvation? 2He said, He Never knew them. They had never been saved by grace and faith.

This is the Supper of the Bridegroom and the Bride. They were too late, they no longer had the Holy Spirit. So when the time came they weren't ready. They had the old oil of the old covenant which ran out but they never filled their lamps with the new oil of the new covenant, the Gospel of the Messiah. So He says, I don't know you.

So that's my take on those scriptures.

Are you missing the point of your post I was addressing(?).
I provided these Biblical illustrations to show us that the belief that desire for the kingdom is evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit and, therefore, the person who has that desire can be saved is just plain false.

Just because a person cares that they can't believe later in life is NOT evidence that God is working on them bringing them to repentance and, therefore, they can believe and be in the kingdom. I no longer endorse that doctrine. It does not stand up Biblically as I have shown. Desire, even to the point of tears, does not automatically equate to the work of the Spirit drawing a person to him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...I believe that it may be possible for one to reject that salvation and no longer be sealed, completely by their choice. By the same token, I don't believe this happens because someone backslides into some sin or hasn't overcome something in their lives...

I agree. It happens because the choice is made to not trust in the blood of Christ anymore. I do believe, however, that decision will eventually be manifest in a return to a lifestyle of sin.

 

[dianegcook]

The problem here isn't identifying what is willful sin or not. The problem is work-based salvation doctrines. Here's the truth. Any sin you commit, whether it's on purpose or not; Any sin you commit, whether its known to you or not, you are guilty - and you're not just guilty of one sin. You're guilty of ALL of them (Leviticus 5:17 & James 2:10).

Do you eat pork? Eating pork is a sin! (Deuteronomy 14:8)
Do you eat shellfish (Clams, Lobsters, Shrimp, Crabs, etc). Eating those are a sin too! (Leviticus 11:10)

Work-based salvation is a lie. If you're hung up on what you're doing to commit sin, you're only hurting yourself. Christ died so that you could be saved under Grace. Grace isn't based on what you do. It's based on faith and faith alone. So, worrying about whether smoking is a sin and etc. etc. Just forget about it.

I try not to eat such things, but eggs taste a lot better with a little bacon, lol.
These are health laws, it won't cost you, your salvation. Might make you unhealthy, though.

As you stated in Eph.2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Qchan]

Yup, and I agree.

Because of other scriptures I believe that it may be possible for one to reject that salvation and no longer be sealed, completely by their choice. By the same token, I don't believe this happens because someone backslides into some sin or hasn't overcome something in their lives that is sin. I also don't believe this can happen to an immature Christian. Paul talks about carnal Christians and he never says they are not saved. I do believe that the Lord uses His rod, staff, Holy Spirit, and any other means necessary to get His children in line. I am absolutely positive about that last one. 2

You cannot lose the Holy Spirit. The bible says in John 10:28-30;6:37;39 (NLT), "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day."

Eternal means forever. If someone can lose their salvation, then it can't be eternal, and thus, opposite of what the bible teaches.

 

[Deborah13]

Eternal means forever. If someone can lose their salvation, then it can't be eternal, and thus, opposite of what the bible teaches.

There are many scriptures that support your view.
God Bless

 

[Brother Mike]

Setting someone's house on fire and watching it smoke is sinning.

Smoking a Cigar is based on what you believe it is, and without questioning.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Eternal means forever. If someone can lose their salvation, then it can't be eternal, and thus, opposite of what the bible teaches.

If I lost a lotto ticket worth a million dollars does that mean it's no longer worth a million dollars?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Smoking a Cigar is based on what you believe it is, and without questioning.

 

[Qchan]

If I lost a lotto ticket worth a million dollars does that mean it's no longer worth a million dollars?

Eternal life isn't an object. It is a state of being. If you have eternal life, that means you cannot die. If you can die, then you do not have eternal life. If eternal life can be taken away, then you never had it to begin with.

 

[Brother Mike]

Ah, well, might have clarified that a bit better with scriptures and longer explanation. My bad.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You cannot lose the Holy Spirit. The bible says in John 10:28-30;6:37;39 (NLT), "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day."

Eternal means forever. If someone can lose their salvation, then it can't be eternal, and thus, opposite of what the bible teaches.

The full counsel of scripture shows us that all of these promises are predicated on trust in God, and continuing in that trust. All that Jesus said is true for the person who believes and continues to believe.

24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24 NASB)

 

[Kidron]

I agree with Eugene that, that is exactly what it is. Rejecting the Savior.

Exactly.
And you do this when you reject the Gospel.
An example would be found in Hebrews when Paul was preaching to a group of Jews (Hebrews) and they willfully rejected the Gospel and Paul told them they were "crucifying Christ afresh".

 

[Kidron]

Dear Brother Kidron, this is such an important question to any wanting to know what the unforgivable or willful sin is.

Yes, im drawing a distinction here for the benefit of those who are worried that if they dont confess every sin and are careful to maintain good works, they are not able to keep their salvation.
So, we see that Smoking is a sin, ....just one of many that a Priest will commit, that a Christian will commit, day by day.
So, in the end, we have to realize that almost all sin is done willfully. = on purpose.
So, you remember that the next time you are speeding in you car without your seatbelt on
The good news is, that God holds Jesus accountable for your sinning, and has in fact sacrificed him for your entire lifetime of sinning.
And in case you didnt know.......When Christ saved you, that ended your trying to save yourself by keeping you Faith alive or whatever it is you think you have to do next to save yourself.
You dont save yourself.
You dont keep yourself saved.
What you do, is live for the Lord BECAUSE YOU ARE saved.
Very important distinction.
Very.