Is the bride of Christ a part of the church, or is she all the church?

[Eugene]

the Bride or the Church is always distinct. Just as Israel is as Gods people. The Church is His royal family. Israel is His Royal people.

I guess we all see things a bit differently but I’ll just add the following scripture to the mix hopeful to add light.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (Or endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together. Here is a qualifier; IF, and Jesus’ bride is going to be a joint-heir; not just an heir which will be wonderful too.

2 Tim 2:12 IF we suffer (Endure), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: What is it that He will deny us? the right of reigning as that joint-heir.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[veryberry]

Hi dear brother and I love your post even though I'm not in agreement with the above portion. From my posts I reckon you suspected that.

If all the church is the bride why does the Apostle see different cohorts of believers arrive at separate times in heaven (some prior to tribulation - others out of great tribulation), with different rewards (some have crowns - others a palm), different proximity's to the throne (some round bout and in the midst of the throne - others before the throne), different promises (some reign as kings and priests - others serve in the temple).

I'll leave off here for the time being . Thanks.

Because there will be people saved and die in the time of Jacobs trouble. In this period, there is a everlasting Gospel( Rev 14:6)(Rev 14: 12). Saints in the tribulation, have to have faith and not take the mark. Many will be die for the faith. Our gospel is different, for we only have to have faith.

 

[Navigator]

I guess we all see things a bit differently but I’ll just add the following scripture to the mix hopeful to add light.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (Or endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together. Here is a qualifier; IF, and Jesus’ bride is going to be a joint-heir; not just an heir which will be wonderful too.

2 Tim 2:12 IF we suffer (Endure), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: What is it that He will deny us? the right of reigning as that joint-heir.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

We are joint-heirs with Jesus, as adopted brothers and sisters of Him, and adopted children of God.

And to answer the original question, we have to define what the "church" is. How would you define it? And I want to also add that Revelation is often hard to interpret, so naturally, I will add another Revelation passage...

The New Heaven and the New Earth
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.[c] 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:1-8

From the top paragraph, I feel it's safe to take away that the people who God is to call His will be living in New Jerusalem with God dwelling among them, being their God. If that is not right, please object.

So the next step would be to define who these "people" are. I think the next paragraph defines that. God says "to the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment." Who in Scripture references giving water to the thirsty? Jesus does that, and clearly states that only HE can provide the water. That is affirmed in the next verse. "The one who CONQUERS will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son." Jesus is the one who conquers, who conquered, and as joint-heirs with Christ, and adopted brothers and sisters of Christ, through Christ, we join in having this inheritance given to us.

Linking this back up to the top paragraph, the "people" that God is speaking of, living in New Jerusalem as the bride of Christ; well those are the people who have been justified by Christ, adopted because of Christ, and sanctified by the Spirit, who was sent to bear witness about Christ.

^^
"1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:1-5

So if THAT is your definition of the Church: those who are adopted sons and daughters through Christ, then yes...I would say that the entire Church is the bride of Christ.

 

[Tristan]

Hi dear brother and I love your post even though I'm not in agreement with the above portion. From my posts I reckon you suspected that.

If all the church is the bride why does the Apostle see different cohorts of believers arrive at separate times in heaven (some prior to tribulation - others out of great tribulation), with different rewards (some have crowns - others a palm), different proximity's to the throne (some round bout and in the midst of the throne - others before the throne), different promises (some reign as kings and priests - others serve in the temple).

I'll leave off here for the time being . Thanks.

There are Christian believers and nonchristian believers. Much of which I've detailed in previous threads.

Please prove it to me.

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church." -Ephesians 5:22-32

"For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." -2 Corinthians 11:2

"Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God." -Romans 7:4

"“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom." -Matthew 25:1

 

[Eugene]

We are joint-heirs with Jesus, as adopted brothers and sisters of Him, and adopted children of God.

Brother Justin, would you consider that adoption has to do with the plan of God according to His foreknowledge of them that would believe whom He called? In actuality we are born of God to have the nature of our Father; an adopted child never has that and retain their original nature but has the benefits the family provides.

But we read in Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons (Adopted), God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. If God had not sent His Spirit there would be no rebirth.

From the top paragraph, I feel it's safe to take away that the people who God is to call His will be living in New Jerusalem with God dwelling among them, being their God. If that is not right, please object.

All in Christ including those that are beheaded in the tribulation will be in heaven or New Jerusalem.

"1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:1-5

So if THAT is your definition of the Church: those who are adopted sons and daughters through Christ, then yes...I would say that the entire Church is the bride of Christ.

My stand is that all who have called on the name of the Lord are children of God by birth. Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? All believers in Christ will be in heaven, but do I believe all will rule conjointly with Christ as the bride and joint-heirs? I do not and thanks for your reply.

 

[Eugene]

There are Christian believers and nonchristian believers. Much of which I've detailed in previous threads.

The non-Christian believes in what? Can they also be as those of John 8:44 whose father is the devil.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other (Than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Having not believed on Christ there is not a good work, Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

The Church is the bride of Christ...the entire thing.

I replied: "Prove it to me."

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church." -Ephesians 5:22-32

I think you realize that this refers to Jesus' body; the church, not necessarily His bride. We are one with Him our brother.

"For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." -2 Corinthians 11:2

Now Paul had espoused believers, and yet his fear expressed doubt that all would avail themselves of that opportunity becoming obvious there is the possibility of being a guest at the wedding instead of the bride. 2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

"Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God." -Romans 7:4

Of course all in Christ belong to Him. In the believer in Christ bearing fruit of the Spirit is manifest apart from the law as we read in Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Now this doesn't reflect that the believer not having this fruit is not saved; we just don't recognize them as such. God knows them because He sees Christ in them, and Jesus said in John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise (For any reason) cast out. I've met many Christians not walking the talk, but then God is not done with them yet.

"“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom." -Matthew 25:1

All are virgins, though all not ready for the wedding, and these five remaining virgins are not the bride, but guests; they are the 144,000 (Oops, that'll bring "WHAT?"). At the wedding with be Jesus the bridegroom, His bride, His friend John the Baptist in John 3:29 is there, and guests. Uh, did I capitalize enough personal pronouns for you?

Thanks Tristan for your reply.

 

[Tristan]

The non-Christian believes in what? Can they also be as those of John 8:44 whose father is the devil.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other (Than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Having not believed on Christ there is not a good work, Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.


I replied: "Prove it to me."

I think you realize that this refers to Jesus' body; the church, not necessarily His bride. We are one with Him our brother.

Now Paul had espoused believers, and yet his fear expressed doubt that all would avail themselves of that opportunity becoming obvious there is the possibility of being a guest at the wedding instead of the bride. 2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Of course all in Christ belong to Him. In the believer in Christ bearing fruit of the Spirit is manifest apart from the law as we read in Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Now this doesn't reflect that the believer not having this fruit is not saved; we just don't recognize them as such. God knows them because He sees Christ in them, and Jesus said in John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise (For any reason) cast out. I've met many Christians not walking the talk, but then God is not done with them yet.

All are virgins, though all not ready for the wedding, and these five remaining virgins are not the bride, but guests; they are the 144,000 (Oops, that'll bring "WHAT?"). At the wedding with be Jesus the bridegroom, His bride, His friend John the Baptist in John 3:29 is there, and guests. Uh, did I capitalize enough personal pronouns for you?

Thanks Tristan for your reply.

The non-Christian believes in love as deliverance from their nature. This is still belief in Jesus (and in his name) and the work is still done by the Holy Spirit. They are not part of the Church (and hence the bride), but can still attend the wedding. What good is wedding feast without guests!

"And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." -Matthew 25:10-13

They were all virgins...they were all pure, and yet 5 of them were rejected. They're not guests at the wedding, they're left out completely because the door is shut. It makes a lot more sense to me that Christ is the bridegroom, we as the Church are the bride, and the guests are those who are not Christians, yet still believers through their acceptance of the Holy Spirit. They are free to take part in the wedding festivities and eat the same cake that we will.

I think a lot of scripture is symbolic. There are many ways to explain the relationship we have with God/Christ/Spirit. He can be Father, Son, and Brother, or whatever is necessary. He's God after all and there are many different ways to perceive him.

 

[Eugene]

The non-Christian believes in love as deliverance from their nature. This is still belief in Jesus (and in his name) and the work is still done by the Holy Spirit. They are not part of the Church (and hence the bride), but can still attend the wedding. What good is wedding feast without guests!

Please let it not be said that I believe a bit of that. Those not in Christ become a law unto themselves, but work of any manner does not make them born of God; that would be akin to attempt making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Rom 1:18-3:23 begins God’s judgment declared against the immoral, moral, and the religious, and we must keep it in context as judgment.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (Did they ever sin even once? Will showing love change this?)
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

"And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." -Matthew 25:10-13
They were all virgins...they were all pure, and yet 5 of them were rejected. They're not guests at the wedding, they're left out completely because the door is shut. It makes a lot more sense to me that Christ is the bridegroom, we as the Church are the bride, and the guests are those who are not Christians, yet still believers through their acceptance of the Holy Spirit. They are free to take part in the wedding festivities and eat the same cake that we will.

You do realize that the wedding is to be in heaven don't you? What would unbelievers be doing there?

I think a lot of scripture is symbolic. There are many ways to explain the relationship we have with God/Christ/Spirit. He can be Father, Son, and Brother, or whatever is necessary. He's God after all and there are many different ways to perceive him.

Agreed, but there again context is all important to understanding if it is our Father, Jesus, or the Spirit of Truth speaking many times. E.g., Isa 40:3 shows Jesus to be addressed there as Jehovah; the formal name of God, and yet there are many that do not believe Jesus is God, but that He is a god. Some even believe He is brother to Satan. You might attempt assigning names to the nouns and personal pronouns of 1 Jn 5:18 We know that [whosoever] is born of [God] sinneth not; but [he] that is begotten of [God] keepeth [himself], and that [wicked one] toucheth [him] not. Such as this brings truth to what is being said.

Thanks again.

 

[Tristan]

Please let it not be said that I believe a bit of that. Those not in Christ become a law unto themselves, but work of any manner does not make them born of God; that would be akin to attempt making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Rom 1:18-3:23 begins God’s judgment declared against the immoral, moral, and the religious, and we must keep it in context as judgment.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (Did they ever sin even once? Will showing love change this?)
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


You do realize that the wedding is to be in heaven don't you? What would unbelievers be doing there?

Agreed, but there again context is all important to understanding if it is our Father, Jesus, or the Spirit of Truth speaking many times. E.g., Isa 40:3 shows Jesus to be addressed there as Jehovah; the formal name of God, and yet there are many that do not believe Jesus is God, but that He is a god. Some even believe He is brother to Satan. You might attempt assigning names to the nouns and personal pronouns of 1 Jn 5:18 We know that [whosoever] is born of [God] sinneth not; but [he] that is begotten of [God] keepeth [himself], and that [wicked one] toucheth [him] not. Such as this brings truth to what is being said.

Thanks again.

Those works would be impossible without the Holy Spirit, because the flesh avails nothing, right? If you see good works, they can only come from the Spirit. It's not works that give them salvation, but the condition of their heart and the work of the Spirit which is manifest in their actions. That is their faith.They fulfill the law through love (remember that love is the fulfillment of the law) and that is done through the Holy Spirit.

There are no unbelievers in heaven. There are however those who do not literally know Christ. They know what he is/represents, but they don't literally think "Jesus Christ". They just internally accept the Holy Spirit and believe that it is salvation from their nature, which is one of evil.

Here's something else...we still sin. No amount of faith or Holy Spirit stops that. You and I both remain sinners, even if we are literal believers and Christians. The same goes for those who do not literally know Christ. They remain sinners, but can receive the same grace we do. The standard is the same for everyone. The only difference between me and a nonchristian is that I am a part of the Church and a literal follower of Christ. It should make it easier for me.

This is in no way easy...it's just fair and applies to everyone and there is no excuse for anyone.

 

[Eugene]

Those works would be impossible without the Holy Spirit, because the flesh avails nothing, right? If you see good works, they can only come from the Spirit. It's not works that give them salvation, but the condition of their heart and the work of the Spirit which is manifest in their actions. That is their faith.They fulfill the law through love (remember that love is the fulfillment of the law) and that is done through the Holy Spirit. There are no unbelievers in heaven. There are however those who do not literally know Christ. They know what he is/represents, but they don't literally think "Jesus Christ". They just internally accept the Holy Spirit and believe that it is salvation from their nature, which is one of evil.

Dear Tristan, I believe you are incorrect. There's one name and that is Jesus. Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. It is true we all commit sin, but there is provision made by the sacrifice given us who believe; it is the gift of God. You've been here judging good works, and not fruit. You're associating a good work as love, yet outside of Christ there are none good regardless the appearance.

Much like the Passover, regardless the person, blood had to be applied to the doorposts to be safe; they could have been the best of the best and without following that which God had proclaimed their first born died. We sing a song, "When I see the blood, I will pass over you." Heb 9:22 says it like this: ". . without shedding of blood is no remission." The love you say you see had better be measured against truth and not assumption.

Here's something else...we still sin. No amount of faith or Holy Spirit stops that. You and I both remain sinners, even if we are literal believers and Christians. The same goes for those who do not literally know Christ. They remain sinners, but can receive the same grace we do. The standard is the same for everyone. The only difference between me and a nonchristian is that I am a part of the Church and a literal follower of Christ. It should make it easier for me.

This is in no way easy...it's just fair and applies to everyone and there is no excuse for anyone.

Again, there is one name. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. I know you've had to have read this but coming out of Catholicism I had to read it a multitude of times for it to sink in. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[jasoncran]

Brother, I do not know of your parents, but you and I are in the body of Christ, and as such we are destined to be with Him in heaven; not on earth going to temples. If your parents are not yet saved let's pray for them that they will come to know our Savior.

I will add that it is not just Jews or Gentiles, but at this time them out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

a gentile is any non converted person not from the seed of Abraham in the days of the moisac law. a Hebrew was a person of seed of Abraham or a gentile who has become a Hebrew by circumsion and thus under the law. I wont go into the seven noahide laws for now.

now then the parable of the wedding feast and the serveants going to the high way by ways. what does that point to?

 

[Tristan]

Dear Tristan, I believe you are incorrect. There's one name and that is Jesus. Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. It is true we all commit sin, but there is provision made by the sacrifice given us who believe; it is the gift of God. You've been here judging good works, and not fruit. You're associating a good work as love, yet outside of Christ there are none good regardless the appearance.

Much like the Passover, regardless the person, blood had to be applied to the doorposts to be safe; they could have been the best of the best and without following that which God had proclaimed their first born died. We sing a song, "When I see the blood, I will pass over you." Heb 9:22 says it like this: ". . without shedding of blood is no remission." The love you say you see had better be measured against truth and not assumption.

Again, there is one name. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. I know you've had to have read this but coming out of Catholicism I had to read it a multitude of times for it to sink in. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

No, I haven't been judging good works. I'm seeing the fruit and judging that it comes from a certain tree. You can tell that an apple comes from an apple tree, right?

You're entering the conversation with the assumption that they must be outside of Christ regardless of their actions. I'm telling you that their actions speak to the internal reality. They are in Christ and their works display this. They believe and their works display this. What is faith without works? Nothing. You can tell someone that has faith because it MUST be manifest in works. You don't have faith if it's not shown on the outside. Those actions are impossible without Christ. They are impossible without the Holy Spirit. My logic follows that if I see works on the outside, and can see they are motivated by love, I can realistically conclude that they have the Spirit. Just because you do good works and claim to be a Christian doesn't make you saved. They must be done in love. Love is the key, not literal belief. Your belief is demonstrated by your love which is manifest in good works.

Yes, it's a gift to those who believe. Those who love believe in Jesus. They may or may not recognize it's Jesus, but they believe that love is their deliverance, and it is! Grace is free and all you need to do is believe it is done through love. God is love. Jesus is salvation. They believe.

 

[jasoncran]

No, I haven't been judging good works. I'm seeing the fruit and judging that it comes from a certain tree. You can tell that an apple comes from an apple tree, right?

You're entering the conversation with the assumption that they must be outside of Christ regardless of their actions. I'm telling you that their actions speak to the internal reality. They are in Christ and their works display this. They believe and their works display this. What is faith without works? Nothing. You can tell someone that has faith because it MUST be manifest in works. You don't have faith if it's not shown on the outside. Those actions are impossible without Christ. They are impossible without the Holy Spirit. My logic follows that if I see works on the outside, and can see they are motivated by love, I can realistically conclude that they have the Spirit. Just because you do good works and claim to be a Christian doesn't make you saved. They must be done in love. Love is the key, not literal belief. Your belief is demonstrated by your love which is manifest in good works.

Yes, it's a gift to those who believe. Those who love believe in Jesus. They may or may not recognize it's Jesus, but they believe that love is their deliverance, and it is! Grace is free and all you need to do is believe it is done through love. God is love. Jesus is salvation. They believe.

so if an atheist is good person is he saved?

 

[Eugene]

Now then the parable of the wedding feast and the servants going to the high way by ways. what does that point to?

Hi Jason, notes I transcribed from a study on the Parables from Gene Hawkins is as follows concerning the gospel being preached to all nations (Matthew 28:19), and will be accomplished by Israel during the Millennium when they will become God's worldwide evangelists, after they as a nation, turn to the Lord.

 

[Tristan]

so if an atheist is good person is he saved?

It's not about being a good person (because we all screw up and nobody is a "good person". It's about loving others and accepting the Holy Spirit. That is your expression of belief. You can claim to not believe in God, but the condition of your heart and your conscience override that. Consider it the same concept as someone that claims to believe in God but doesn't have the Spirit and doesn't love. The condition of your heart dictates whether or not you are saved, not an outward expression of words. Do you accept Jesus in your heart? I assert that this is possible without realizing it's literally God/Christ. I see examples of this in my own life with others around me.

 

[Knotical]

It's not about being a good person (because we all screw up and nobody is a "good person". It's about loving others and accepting the Holy Spirit. That is your expression of belief. You can claim to not believe in God, but the condition of your heart and your conscience override that. Consider it the same concept as someone that claims to believe in God but doesn't have the Spirit and doesn't love. The condition of your heart dictates whether or not you are saved, not an outward expression of words. Do you accept Jesus in your heart? I assert that this is possible without realizing it's literally God/Christ. I see examples of this in my own life with others around me.

Careful with that line of thinking. You are venturing into muddy waters.

 

[Tristan]

Careful with that line of thinking. You are venturing into muddy waters.

There is little black and white in the universe, rather it is huge spectrum of greys.

 

[Knotical]

Actually it is all black and white, we humans are the ones that try to force things into different shades of grey.

 

[Knotical]

Looking at anything in shades of grey is man's way of trying to diminish the effect of sin. For God there is only black and white. Are you saying He is not intelligent?

 

[Eugene]

My logic follows that if I see works on the outside, and can see they are motivated by love, I can realistically conclude that they have the Spirit.

Therein lies your error; "My logic." You've quoted James as to having a dead faith without works and that is truth, but that is before man. God recognizes His own because they have believed on His Son and our Savior Jesus only. Again, works have no merit as pertaining to righteousness or salvation. Like the Passover we must have the blood on the doorposts. Another song we sing is:
"Nothing but the blood."

1. What can wash away my sin?
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
   What can make me whole again?
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   • Refrain:
     Oh! precious is the flow
     That makes me white as snow;
     No other fount I know,
     Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
2. Nothing can for sin atone,
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
   Naught of good that I have done,
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
3. Glory! Glory! This I sing—
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
   All my praise for this I bring—
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus.