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Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

Hopeful

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Yeah, well, if you're proposing that anyone is sinless, even for a nanosecond, I'd have to say we have a basic disfunction going on with that sight. And that would pretty much explain all the fighting against Paul's conclusions.
If you think that believing that repentance from sin can be permanent is dysfunctional, than believing otherwise cancels out all that Jesus came and died for...our freedom from sin.
I would rather die clean and "dysfunctional" in the eyes of some, than full of sin and deceived.
Many legalists don't care much for Paul, because he hammers home the fact that mankind are and remain sinners, and some, saved by Grace
That POV surprises me, as both legalists and those who refuse Jesus' payment for sin both cling to their sins like it is a life boat.
I will fully agree that the law stands, contrary to some who try to eliminate the Word of God. I believe Jesus has spoken the standard for this matter in Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4, that man will live by every Word of God. Therefore it's very problematic to figure out how every Word actually applies to "us." That's a tough gig for anyone.
For example, some will claim the moral high ground, following the law. And obviously I would have no issues with anyone making such attempts...
but the caveat for me, personally, is I know, like Paul did, that the evil present within is never cooperative with God, so there's no sense trying to pull the wool over His Eyes.
Some have been made free from "the evil present within us" by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". (Rom 8:2)
When any of us come before God with a "whole honest heart" we do come bearing an evil conscience. Heb. 10:22
An honest heart and an evil conscience is an oxy-moron.
I prefer an honest setting is more beneficial with interactions with my Maker, even though that does bring a very certain fear to the table, knowing that God can and often does choose to deal with that evil present with me, adversely. Even when I think I'm GREAT. In fact especially when I think that. Because it's simply not true
It is written..."Now we know that God heareth not sinners..." (John 9:31)
Peter says the same thing..."For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)
Turn permanently from sin, then talk to God.
 

Hopeful

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I think you and I are on the same page concerning the law of Moses, and the 10 Commandments. Although I don’t really refer to the Commandments as the “10” Commandments since we don’t observe the Sabbath laws as required by Moses.


The commandments and laws that Abraham walked in “by faith” as he walked with Lord and was taught directly by the Lord, were already a part of the covenant requirements long before the law was added, which is why the “10“ Commandments remained intact as part of the New Covenant when the law of Moses was taken out of the way.


IOW, the 10 Commandments are eternal, while the law of Moses was always temporary.



What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19


The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Seed, the Messiah should come.


By saying “until”, the Holy Spirit is indicating the law that was added, was temporary.
Agreed.
 

Hopeful

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It depends on each person and their motive.
Christians who are persuaded that it’s a sin (unrighteousness) to eat pork or shellfish, are not eating pork or shellfish in order to be right with God, (justified) by the law of Moses.
Same thing with becoming physically circumcised.
Yes, the motive is crucial.
 

Hopeful

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There is nothing wrong with eating pork or shellfish. Jesus said that all foods are clean. Also, keep in mind that the hygiene of hog raising is very, very different from the NT era (and before) and shellfish can be toxic if eaten at the wrong time of year.
Agreed.
But there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to explore what it is like to abide by OT laws
 

Hopeful

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i don't talk or think like that - i think everything that came out of God's mouth is the highest form of wisdom for all time - i marvel when i find out how profound His eternal wisdom is on any subject - He spoke of things 4000 years ago that science is confirming - iow science is playing catchup with God -hallelujah - God is awesome
I know you don't "say things like that", and I thank God for it.
God IS awesome.
 

Hopeful

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Jesus and the apostles including paul never broke the laws ever even until their death - Luke 4:16 - Acts 21:21-22 - Acts 21:23-24 - Acts 21:25-26 - the reason is that God had already said that anyone who does miracles and teaches to turn away from God's laws is to be stoned - Deuteronomy 13:1-5 - Matthew 5:17 - Exodus 31:16 - Deuteronomy 28:1 - Deuteronomy 28:9 - Deuteronomy 28:13-14 - Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Matthew 13:52 - Romans 3:31 - John 10:22-24 -

jews are taught torah from childhood - they know what God said about torah and they don't have a problem keeping it

gentiles do not know study understand torah at all and believe paul told them torah is impossible to keep so throw it out - this misunderstanding is the issue
I can't agree with that.
Jesus and His disciples healed on the Sabbath, shucked corn on the Sabbath, went unto the homes of the uncircumcised, allowed an adulteress to live, etc.
And I also don't believe the Jews had no problem "keeping it" (Torah).
Had they been able to, there would have been no need for a Savior or a new covenant.

BTW, the entire council at Jerusalem said the Torah was no longer necessary for Gentiles, in Acts 15.
 
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Hopeful

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That isn't remotely true, especially because you didn't cite any passage that legitimately supports your claim.
Here is one set..."And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:23-29)
God stated multiple times in the Law that the foreigners in the Israelite community were responsible for keeping the same laws and customs as the native Israelites(Exo. 12:49, Lev. 7:7, Num. 15:16, 29). The Sabbath command itself includes the foreigner among the parties who were supposed to keep that day holy:
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates." - Exo. 8-11
Furthermore, God inspired an incident to be recorded in Lev. 24:10-16 where an Eygptian male blasphemed God while he was in a fight with an Israelite male, and God had that Egyptian stoned to death. It's almost as if God wanted Moses to record that because He knew "Christians" would be making these kinds of bogus and easily debunkable claims in the future when they say the Law didn't apply to Gentiles.
Additionally, Paul and Christ both stated that true Christians are Jews in Rom. 2:28-29, Rev. 2:9, and Rev. 3:9. When a "Christian" say they aren't a Jew, that's an automatic red flag that they're not truly converted at all and have no part in the New Covenant promises, as Paul succinctly taught in Gal. 3:28-29. Christians were grafted into the tree of Israel and become just as much a Jew as someone who is born Jewish when they are truly converted. I strongly advise you to read and actually think about what Paul had to say concerning Jews and Gentiles being the same group of people in Romans and Galatians.
The verses I posted annulled your writings.
It's funny how "Christians" love to quote what Paul says about how Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ until it means having to face the obligation of keeping the Law. At that point, the discussion suddenly turns into a matter of whether someone was born a Jew or not. When Gentiles became part of the Israelite community under the former covenant, they had to conform themselves to the Israelites' religion if they wanted the same blessings the natural-born Israelites received from God. And as Paul taught in Gal. 3 and Rom. 11, that hasn't changed under the former covenant.
The Jews too have been freed from the Law.
One Lord is Lord of all, and without commandments for some based on location and not others.
Whether or not you agree doesn't matter to me, nor is it relevant in light of what the Bible says.
I'm not the one forbidding anything. That's your warped interpretation.
Point to where i said circumcision is necessary, otherwise you're making wild assumptions from an extremely flawed position. The scriptures teach in no uncertain terms that physical circumcision is unnecessary and that it cannot save anyone. What it doesn't do is conclusively say the entire Law is to be thrown out as obsolete. According to your logic, Gen. 1 is to be thrown out(and yes, you're arguing this because the entire book of Genesis is part of the Law), as well as God's position on homosexuality on other things He considers to be sin.
You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth and expect to be taken seriously.
You want to live by the Law, then circumcision is part of that Law.
If circumcision is excluded, so is the rest of it.
 

Rajesh Sahu

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I can't agree with that.
Jesus and His disciples healed on the Sabbath, shucked corn on the Sabbath, went unto the homes of the uncircumcised, allowed an adulteress to live, etc.
And I also don't believe the Jews had no problem "keeping it" (Torah).
Had they been able to, there would have been no need for a Savior or a new covenant.

BTW, the entire council at Jerusalem said the Torah was no longer necessary for Gentiles, in Acts 15.
I think the crucial thing to understand is no one in the Universe touches God's handwritten Law for mankind and gets away with it. Whoever fiddles with that will be guaranteed destroyed , as the Lawbreaking/ disobedient Jews were. Jesus hands out a terse warning for Lawbreakers in Matthew 7:21-23. They (God given Laws) are imperishable, just, perfect, and perennial ( Psalm 19:9-11, Psalm 119, Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17)
However ALL legalism ended with the advent of Christ and His covenant. Unfortunately, an overwhelming number of Churches got rid of the Law of God calling it's obedience legalism as well. I believe they did not study / ignored Christ's words ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12) where the Lord clearly and repeatedly reminds us that ENTIRE Law's obedience requirement is met through Loving God and the fellow human being.Thus instead teaching their congregations HOW to obey the entire Law of God, they ended up destroying God's Law ( calling it redundant/ obsolete) and are now standing on the threshold of God's judgment, being blissfully unaware of the fact that they have done the unthinkable...
 
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If you think that believing that repentance from sin can be permanent is dysfunctional, than believing otherwise cancels out all that Jesus came and died for...our freedom from sin.
I would rather die clean and "dysfunctional" in the eyes of some, than full of sin and deceived.
The standards raised by Jesus prevails in these matters.
I would simply point to the fact of Luke 18:13-14

Short version, being a phony religious hypocrite who falsely claims to be better than the other sinners does not seem to be conducive to being "in Truth."
That POV surprises me, as both legalists and those who refuse Jesus' payment for sin both cling to their sins like it is a life boat.
I believe sins will seen by God exactly how Paul described in 2 Cor. 5:19

With a big caveat that sins will never be forgiven of the devils.

The difficulty for us is to understand that our own minds are and remain subject to internal temptations by our adversary, so none of us are all that far away from God's Wrath, in the flesh anyway.

The Spirit remains against and contrary to the flesh precisely for this reason. Gal. 5:17

Short version: Anytime we think we're "all that" we probably have at least one foot in the grave
Some have been made free from "the evil present within us" by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". (Rom 8:2)

An honest heart and an evil conscience is an oxy-moron.

It is written..."Now we know that God heareth not sinners..." (John 9:31)
Peter says the same thing..."For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)
Turn permanently from sin, then talk to God.
If your claim is that believers are not subject to evil thoughts which defile us, as Jesus showed us in Matthew 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matthew 5:28 and that such are not from the tempter, I would simply call such sights blinded by the god of this world.

Nothing personal mind you. I think God will save such believers, regardless.
 

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I'm looking for my scissors so that I can cut this from my Bible: "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:4-6

You're either under law or under grace. It's a binary, either/or situation.

On a separate note, in the verses in Matthew's gospel that you cite, Jesus was speaking to the Jews prior to His crucifixion. Once He died, was resurrected, and sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, the OT law -- all of it -- became obsolete for Christians. You're either under law or under grace, period.
Let's take a closer look at the above, the one or the other thing, which I struggled with for literally decades

Let's suppose the law is for, or more accurately, against the lawless and against sinners, as Paul stated in 1 Tim. 1:9 for example.

And let's also observe that Satan is moved to resist the Word of God via theft of it from people, ala Mark 4:15

We also know from 1 John 3:8 that Satan is also a sinner

Is the math starting to become clearer yet? I personally do not have a problem with the laws being against Satan. No, not one problem with that at all. However, if I concede to the fact that my own mind is subject to temptations of lawlessness by the adversary, then technically, on the surface, the law is against me, UNLESS I take a closer look and see who the law is really against.

Get the picture?

Paul stated that he had "evil present" with him. I think that points directly to temptations of the tempter, which transpires internally. And this evil present will never follow the laws, regardless of anyone's claims to the contrary.

Now we've made the bed for living in the Grace of God in Christ's Mercy, and that is NOT extended to our adversary.

Both sides of the equation now FLOW quite nicely, and the Words we shun personally and don't care to hear, will actually take on a wonderful sight
 

JLB

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The false teaching that people are sinners?

The false teaching that saints are sinners; wicked people who are separated from Christ.



For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26

sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos
  1. devoted to sin, a sinner
    1. not free from sin
    2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
        1. tax collectors, heathen






JLB
 

JLB

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Jesus and the apostles including paul never broke the laws ever even until their death - Luke 4:16 - Acts 21:21-22 - Acts 21:23-24 - Acts 21:25-26 - the reason is that God had already said that anyone who does miracles and teaches to turn away from God's laws is to be stoned - Deuteronomy 13:1-5 - Matthew 5:17 - Exodus 31:16 - Deuteronomy 28:1 - Deuteronomy 28:9 - Deuteronomy 28:13-14 - Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Matthew 13:52 - Romans 3:31 - John 10:22-24 -


Paul taught that all food from any animal is not unclean, as he was taught this from Jesus Christ.

The law of Moses forbid this.


I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14



So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” Mark 7:18-19


The law of Moses forbid this.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-4



  • For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.



This was not the case when the law of Moses was added to the Covenant. Before that the Lord gave every creature to be used for food.


Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. Genesis 9:3



The wonderful wisdom of God.





JLB
 

jaybo

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Let's take a closer look at the above, the one or the other thing, which I struggled with for literally decades

Let's suppose the law is for, or more accurately, against the lawless and against sinners, as Paul stated in 1 Tim. 1:9 for example.

And let's also observe that Satan is moved to resist the Word of God via theft of it from people, ala Mark 4:15

We also know from 1 John 3:8 that Satan is also a sinner

Is the math starting to become clearer yet? I personally do not have a problem with the laws being against Satan. No, not one problem with that at all. However, if I concede to the fact that my own mind is subject to temptations of lawlessness by the adversary, then technically, on the surface, the law is against me, UNLESS I take a closer look and see who the law is really against.

Get the picture?

Paul stated that he had "evil present" with him. I think that points directly to temptations of the tempter, which transpires internally. And this evil present will never follow the laws, regardless of anyone's claims to the contrary.

Now we've made the bed for living in the Grace of God in Christ's Mercy, and that is NOT extended to our adversary.

Both sides of the equation now FLOW quite nicely, and the Words we shun personally and don't care to hear, will actually take on a wonderful sight
I don't get the picture at all. What do you mean when you write "However, if I concede to the fact that my own mind is subject to temptations of lawlessness by the adversary, then technically, on the surface, the law is against me, UNLESS I take a closer look and see who the law is really against."?
 

for_his_glory

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You can diminish evil defiling thoughts if you want, but JESUS said they are evil and defiling, regardless

I would not be so dismissive of them, if they are evil and defiling

Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matthew 5:28
You can only diminish them after you get them as along as they do not go to the heart and acted on. All those scriptures you gave say out of the heart. We all get evil thoughts at times and diminish them before they manifest in our heart.
 

for_his_glory

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Let's take a closer look at the above, the one or the other thing, which I struggled with for literally decades

Let's suppose the law is for, or more accurately, against the lawless and against sinners, as Paul stated in 1 Tim. 1:9 for example.

And let's also observe that Satan is moved to resist the Word of God via theft of it from people, ala Mark 4:15

We also know from 1 John 3:8 that Satan is also a sinner

Is the math starting to become clearer yet? I personally do not have a problem with the laws being against Satan. No, not one problem with that at all. However, if I concede to the fact that my own mind is subject to temptations of lawlessness by the adversary, then technically, on the surface, the law is against me, UNLESS I take a closer look and see who the law is really against.

Get the picture?

Paul stated that he had "evil present" with him. I think that points directly to temptations of the tempter, which transpires internally. And this evil present will never follow the laws, regardless of anyone's claims to the contrary.

Now we've made the bed for living in the Grace of God in Christ's Mercy, and that is NOT extended to our adversary.

Both sides of the equation now FLOW quite nicely, and the Words we shun personally and don't care to hear, will actually take on a wonderful sight
You really need to get off this Satan trip you are on. No one is denying that Satan could ever be forgiven or that he is the one that tempts us. We will always have evil present with us until the return of Christ. Until then we will always struggle between the flesh and Spirit and as long as we are walking in the Spirit Satan can find no place in us. Satan can do nothing against one who is truly a child of God through the Spiritual rebirth from above, unless God let's him to do so like He did with Job to prove to Satan he can not steal our faith. Grace and mercy will never be given to Satan by God. There is a hugh different between what enters our mind and what enters the heart for we can diminish the thoughts of the mind, but if we allow it to enter the heart, there is where we take action on those thoughts.

Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

BTW, this thread is not about Satan, but about the law of God whether it is dead or alive. Please stay on topic as you have brought us off of topic. If you would like to start a new thread about Satan please do, but we are derailing this thread.
 

Truthfrees

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I can't agree with that.
Jesus and His disciples healed on the Sabbath, shucked corn on the Sabbath, went unto the homes of the uncircumcised, allowed an adulteress to live, etc.
And I also don't believe the Jews had no problem "keeping it" (Torah).
Had they been able to, there would have been no need for a Savior or a new covenant.

BTW, the entire council at Jerusalem said the Torah was no longer necessary for Gentiles, in Acts 15.
those weren't God's laws - show me where God said it is a sin to heal on the sabbath? - in fact God said feed and water your animals on the sabbath - save life on the sabbath

chewing grains on the sabbath is also not against God's laws - you are allowed to eat on the sabbath and eating a handful of grain is fine - working your fields that you earn a living from and making money on sabbath is all God said not to do

God never said you couldn't go into the homes of the uncircumsized

see that is what i mean - anti-nomians have no idea what exactly God said you can and can't do

every law you cited was a man-made law - Jesus and paul were all the time rebuking hypocrites about how the hypocrites make man-made laws that nullify God's laws -
 

Hopeful

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The standards raised by Jesus prevails in these matters.
I would simply point to the fact of Luke 18:13-14
Yes it does,
Those who recognize their sin and cease from them will be saved.
Short version, being a phony religious hypocrite who falsely claims to be better than the other sinners does not seem to be conducive to being "in Truth."
I agree.
As the "truth" can free us from servitude to sin, I recommend it to all. (John 8:32-34)
I believe sins will seen by God exactly how Paul described in 2 Cor. 5:19
I agree, for those reconciled to God.
With a big caveat that sins will never be forgiven of the devils.
Or of those who refuse to quit committing sin.
The difficulty for us is to understand that our own minds are and remain subject to internal temptations by our adversary, so none of us are all that far away from God's Wrath, in the flesh anyway.
As long as we refuse to act on temptations we will be free of sin.
And thankfully, James gives us the way to do so.
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
The Spirit remains against and contrary to the flesh precisely for this reason. Gal. 5:17
Thank God we can crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Short version: Anytime we think we're "all that" we probably have at least one foot in the grave
If you can't "think that" you are already dead. in trespasses and sin.

If your claim is that believers are not subject to evil thoughts which defile us, as Jesus showed us in Matthew 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matthew 5:28 and that such are not from the tempter, I would simply call such sights blinded by the god of this world.
The devil will try his best to wrench us from the hand of God, but it is in our hands weather or not to refuse him.
I will continue to refuse the ways of death.
Nothing personal mind you. I think God will save such believers, regardless.
Believers don't commit sin.
They believe the truth can free them from serving sin. (John 8:32-34)
They believe their old man was crucified with Christ and they were raised with Christ as new creatures with personal contact with God through His Son Jesus Christ.
Thanks be to God.
 
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