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Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

Truthfrees

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Which authored the "eat no pork" mandate?
God listed what to eat and what not to

man said all the things Jesus and paul fought against - Jesus called it hypocritical because often it was the opposite of what God said - and sometimes man was adding or taking away from what God said - all things God said not to do
 

Truthfrees

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So are you saying you now think murder and adultery and dishonest business is ok? I won't respond to your post since it has nothing to do with what I wrote.

"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God." Romans 7:4

"Paul is hard to understand for people who have no idea what the law says" is a misquote.

"[Paul's] letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16b NIV
correct - paul is hard to understand - comma - AND some people twist it to their own destruction - i wasn't saying that you are ignorant and twisting God's words - -
 

jaybo

 
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The law is against the lawless

Satan is lawless

Therefore the law is our friend
I hit my thumb with a hammer and now it's red. Beets are red. So my thumb must be a beet.

Same flawed logic.

If you were logically correct, your post should read: 1) The law is against the lawless, 2) Satan is lawless, 3) Therefore the law is against Satan. It has nothing to do with it being "our friend".
correct - paul is hard to understand - comma - AND some people twist it to their own destruction - i wasn't saying that you are ignorant and twisting God's words - -
I didn't think you were saying that... 8^)
 

Hopeful

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I am a lowly sinner, saved by the Grace of God in Christ. A totally unmerited conveyance on my part.
That makes sense, seeing as the Law was for sinners.
As it is written..." Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 1:9-10)
I am a lowly ex-sinner, and dead to the Law.
As to the law, I love every Word of God. It all stands, secure and active, regardless of those who seek to diminish it.
If you love it so much, why don't you obey it?
Love God with all your strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
 

Hopeful

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God listed what to eat and what not to
I will add..."in the OT".
man said all the things Jesus and paul fought against - Jesus called it hypocritical because often it was the opposite of what God said - and sometimes man was adding or taking away from what God said - all things God said not to do
Jesus and Paul were men.
Both put no stock in what men eat.
Jesus..."And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?" (Mark 7:18-19)
Paul..."Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." (1 Tim 4:3-5)
 

Rajesh Sahu

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1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Yes I completely agree Paul was indeed the Chief of sinners

Especially if we take following verses into consideration :
1) He was murderer and brutal persecutor Christ’s Church 1 (Timothy 1:13, acts 8:3)

2) He , being a Pharisee ( Acts 23:6) was collectively responsible ( with other Pharisees) in the plotting (Matthew 12:14) and the brutal murder / assassination of Christ Jesus

3) Paul murdered many new Christians for believing in Christy sand scaring many others to come to Christ thus robbing many of their lives itself and many others of their potential salvation in Jesus Christ ( by preventing them to become a Christian)

Acts 22:4 : I (paul) persecuted this Way ( first Christian Churchgoers) even to the death, detaining both men and women and throwing them into prison

4) Paul was under seven curses/ woes of Christ ( like other Pharisees) – one of them being condemnation ( Matthew 23:1–11)

5) he partook in the murderer of Stephen (Acts 22:20), the Godly man, martyr, and hero of Christian faith

6) Paul committed the king of all sins --- Blaspheming God and the Holy Spirit for which there is no forgiveness warns Jesus Christ in Matthew 12:31
Paul not only blasphemed God (1 Timothy 1:13) but even went beyond that! By forcing others ( new Christians ) to Blaspheme as well ( Acts 26:11)

7) Finally (by his own submission/ admission) Paul deceived the Church of Christ (2 Corinthians 12:16)
 

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Yes I completely agree Paul was indeed the Chief of sinners

Especially if we take following verses into consideration :
1) He was murderer and brutal persecutor Christ’s Church 1 (Timothy 1:13, acts 8:3)

2) He , being a Pharisee ( Acts 23:6) was collectively responsible ( with other Pharisees) in the plotting (Matthew 12:14) and the brutal murder / assassination of Christ Jesus

3) Paul murdered many new Christians for believing in Christy sand scaring many others to come to Christ thus robbing many of their lives itself and many others of their potential salvation in Jesus Christ ( by preventing them to become a Christian)

Acts 22:4 : I (paul) persecuted this Way ( first Christian Churchgoers) even to the death, detaining both men and women and throwing them into prison

4) Paul was under seven curses/ woes of Christ ( like other Pharisees) – one of them being condemnation ( Matthew 23:1–11)

5) he partook in the murderer of Stephen (Acts 22:20), the Godly man, martyr, and hero of Christian faith

6) Paul committed the king of all sins --- Blaspheming God and the Holy Spirit for which there is no forgiveness warns Jesus Christ in Matthew 12:31
Paul not only blasphemed God (1 Timothy 1:13) but even went beyond that! By forcing others ( new Christians ) to Blaspheme as well ( Acts 26:11)

7) Finally (by his own submission/ admission) Paul deceived the Church of Christ (2 Corinthians 12:16
Mostly true above. Which points to the deeper questions that Paul does such a fine job delving into in his scriptures.

1 Tim 1:
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Short version: Saul was a captive blinded slave of the devil. And was so because Mark 4:15 is a fact

More than just and only Saul was involved with all of your points above. And at that point things get so much more interesting, don't they? You really can't look at anyone once you see and accept this, without factoring in that other party
 

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I hit my thumb with a hammer and now it's red. Beets are red. So my thumb must be a beet.

Same flawed logic.
Here's the same logic made even simpler. God made evil, yet God is against evil. And that's a good thing.
If you were logically correct, your post should read: 1) The law is against the lawless, 2) Satan is lawless, 3) Therefore the law is against Satan. It has nothing to do with it being "our friend".

I didn't think you were saying that... 8^)
IF the law is against the operations of the tempter in our own minds, yes, that law is my friend. Even though that law on the surface seems to convict "me" when it's not. It's convicting of the spirit of disobedience that we all engage internally, temptations of the tempter.

The path of sin is from thought to word to deed. The forewarning comes in mind as well, from the laws. That doesn't mean the law lets evil thoughts off the hook though either, as noted by Jesus in Matthew 5:28

The law is meant to drive a solid stake of guilty through the hearts of everyone, without exception. Romans 3:19
 

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Where did I say otherwise as I have said it all along.
Thanks for moving off the external and into the realm of factoring the unseen adversary at the heart of this issue.

The laws are much more interesting when we see the motions of sin and evil, which are demonically sourced, and are actually advanced by the laws.

Romans 7:
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

We don't hold up the law so that people will obey it. We hold it up so that they fail and fall.

That's the power of the law.

1 Cor. 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Jesus shows us exactly how this works. So does Paul.

The commandment comes. Then immediately resistance comes in our minds to that law, in many disguises I might add.

That resistance if from our adversary, the tempter. The law proves it. Not many believe it, unfortunately.

They are falsely led to think it's just them, there in their own minds. When nothing could be further from the truth
 

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Yes, agreed.


Of all the sinners Christ came to save, Saul of Tarsus was at the top of the list, and probably the most important one of all.


JLB
And you want to continue to read it as "I was" rather than as Paul said, "I am."

Paul does this not to diminish himself, but to point to the fact that we all engage temptations of the tempter internally, and the tempter is assuredly the worst sinner that has ever existed
 
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Inappropriate Behavior
If you love every Word of God, how come you don't love this: "We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:15-16
I can assure you that God in Christ has let the evil present in NO ONE off the hook. No, not even in believers.

I accept the guilt and condemnation of the law, knowing it's sentence is DEATH
 

jaybo

 
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Here's the same logic made even simpler. God made evil, yet God is against evil. And that's a good thing.

IF the law is against the operations of the tempter in our own minds, yes, that law is my friend. Even though that law on the surface seems to convict "me" when it's not. It's convicting of the spirit of disobedience that we all engage internally, temptations of the tempter.

The path of sin is from thought to word to deed. The forewarning comes in mind as well, from the laws. That doesn't mean the law lets evil thoughts off the hook though either, as noted by Jesus in Matthew 5:28

The law is meant to drive a solid stake of guilty through the hearts of everyone, without exception. Romans 3:19
Romans 3:19, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God." This refers to "those who are under the law", i.e., Jews. This doesn't apply to everyone and has nothing to do with driving "a solid stake of guilty through the hearts of everyone" (a very gruesome image!)
 

for_his_glory

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We don't hold up the law so that people will obey it. We hold it up so that they fail and fall.

That's the power of the law.
Have you ever literally say down and read all 613 Mosaic Laws?

Why on earth would we want people to fail and fall as we are to be obedient to the laws that pertain to both Jew and Gentile as in the moral parts of the 613 laws. Do you even know what parts are the moral laws?
 

for_his_glory

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Thanks for moving off the external and into the realm of factoring the unseen adversary at the heart of this issue.
There was no moving from anything as I have said from the get go that Satan is the one who is total depravity. If you would come off of your personal agenda of, I am right and you are wrong, you might understand what others are sharing in how they believe.
 

for_his_glory

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Here's the same logic made even simpler. God made evil, yet God is against evil. And that's a good thing.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.
 

for_his_glory

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Old Mosaic Covenant...............................New Spiritual Covenant

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14.....................NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7, 9:1...............SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7, 10:1-9
Came by Moses... John 1:17.....................Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6, 9:15
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3.............Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16
Law of Moses... Acts 13:38-39..................Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6...................Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2.............................Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1.................. Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6...........................Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7.......................Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9...............Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17.......................The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18......................NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12...........UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13...............ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19..........................PERFECT... Heb. 7:19
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19.................Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48.........................Uncircumcision... Rom. 4:9-12
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10.......................NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3.................FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3...............PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3........................SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11.............MELCHISEDEC priest... Heb. 5:5-10
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5............HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2, 11
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11...........................Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18........POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13......................ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13.............Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13................Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15................SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19..............Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28.........................COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12
NO justification... Acts 13:39....................BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10.....................REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13........................CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7....................Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8, 5:3..............ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19
 

Truthfrees

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I will add..."in the OT".

Jesus and Paul were men.
Both put no stock in what men eat.
Jesus..."And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?" (Mark 7:18-19)
Paul..."Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." (1 Tim 4:3-5)
anyone who did not live by God's laws would have been rejected as the jewish Messiah - if the people were commanded to keep Gad's laws how much more so would Messiah have had to do so - and in fact God said so clearly - Matthew 5:17-20
 

Hopeful

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Yeah, sorry. I don't buy the "I am not a sinner" stories just like I didn't buy Nixon's "I am not a crook" story

Not that I expect too many to truthfully concede that evil thoughts defile us all, as Jesus said. But that's the crux of it
So Jesus was defiled by evil thoughts?
I hope you can see the error of that line of thought, as Jesus, with those baptized into Him, don't allow evil thoughts to defile us or anyone else by us.
That is the testimony of the Lord's death and resurrection on earth today.
 
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