Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Hopeful]

well then by that standard you can eat fries and burgers and coke and cookies and ice-cream to your hearts content - and you can give that kind of diet to children and old people - if God's diet doesn't seem amazingly wise to you then that is fine with me - God speaks to different people about different things - as long as everyone is having a happy time with God their Redeemer then there is nothing to complain about

As Paul said, "Let your moderation be known unto all men." (Phil 4:5)
Too much of anything may be bad for you, but thanks for the well wishes.

 

[Hopeful]

Paul defined himself as "sinners, of whom I am" chief. Not was or used to be. And it appears that you agree that it was not a past tense statement, but present tense. Just as Romans 7:19, 7:21 and 7:25 are likewise, present tense, post salvation statements

It was a present tense statement, that he was the worst of those saved, in 1 Tim 1:15..."This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
As for Rom 7, maybe a new thread would be better.

 

[JLB]

God didn't make up 613 laws to then say later never mind I change My mind - He didn't give appointed feasts to then say never mind I was wrong -

Nobody said He was wrong.

The law of Moses has been abolished, having been nailed to the cross, according to God's will.


Why do you see the need to undo what God has done at the cross?







JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Nobody said He was wrong.

The law of Moses has been abolished, having been nailed to the cross, according to God's will.


Why do you see the need to undo what God has done at the cross?

Who has bewitched you?

Careful there...
Truthfrees has already made it clear that he is only adopting some of the Laws for his personal investigation of the profitability of a better diet, and Saturdays (Sabbaths) focused only on God.
He wasn't "bewitched".

 

[smaller]

It was a present tense statement, that he was the worst of those saved, in 1 Tim 1:15..."This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
As for Rom 7, maybe a new thread would be better.

Don't see why we need a new thread for what we agree on.

Perhaps I misread you earlier when you seemed to claim that Paul's statement that evil "is" present with him was past tense, pre salvation, when it's not. Same as 1 Tim 1:15

You might come to recognize that Paul in these statements basically acknowledges that temptations transpire internally, and are in fact of the tempter, the devil

Paul was not looking only at himself in any of these statements. There is a very obvious shill involved that was not Paul, in 2 Cor 12:7 for example

 

[JLB]

Careful there...
Truthfrees has already made it clear that he is only adopting some of the Laws for his personal investigation of the profitability of a better diet, and Saturdays (Sabbaths) focused only on God.
He wasn't "bewitched".

Not true.

That’s not what he stated at all. He insinuated that the 613 laws of Moses we’re still active today, and thus should be kept.


Here is his statement —

God didn't make up 613 laws to then say later never mind I change My mind - He didn't give appointed feasts to then say never mind I was wrong - aren't you even he slightest bit curious why God chose to say the things He did? - have you never wondered what could be the reason behind some of the things God commanded? - i was and am - i ask God all the time why did you say that? - and when i find out i stand in awe of Him yet again.

My reply

Nobody said He was wrong.

The law of Moses has been abolished, having been nailed to the cross, according to God's will.


Why do you see the need to undo what God has done at the cross?

Who has bewitched you?


My question was directly relevant to misguided people who come under the influence of those who practice Judaism, and desire to undo what was done at the cross.


Again, here is what I stated —

• Why do you see the need to undo what God has done at the cross?

Who has bewitched you?



Here is what Jesus said about eating food that were forbidden under Moses law —


So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” Mark 7:18-19


Here is what Paul says, echoing Jesus —


I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14

• I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself;

JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

As Paul said, "Let your moderation be known unto all men." (Phil 4:5)
Too much of anything may be bad for you, but thanks for the well wishes.

God said not to eat pork and scavengers - must be a really good reason

does salvation come by you not eating pork and scavengers? - no

if you trust God and search for the reasons why God says the things he did you will understand paul better - one thing paul clearly said is do we void the law? no we establish it

 

[Truthfrees]

Careful there...
Truthfrees has already made it clear that he is only adopting some of the Laws for his personal investigation of the profitability of a better diet, and Saturdays (Sabbaths) focused only on God.
He wasn't "bewitched".

thanks for defending me - God bless you

 

[jaybo]

God said not to eat pork and scavengers - must be a really good reason

does salvation come by you not eating pork and scavengers? - no

if you trust God and search for the reasons why God says the things he did you will understand paul better - one thing paul clearly said is do we void the law? no we establish it

But Jesus said that eating everything is fine. Mark 7:18-20, "He said to them, “Are you so foolish? Don’t you understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes out into the sewer.” (This means all foods are clean.) He said, “What comes out of a person defiles him.

Paul wrote "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Roman 7:4

Try reading Paul's letter to the Galatians for the best example of Christians being freed from the OT law. This will help you understand it in brief: "You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? Have you suffered so many things for nothing?—if indeed it was for nothing. Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard? Galatians 3:1-5

 

[Hopeful]

Don't see why we need a new thread for what we agree on.

What we don't seem to agree on is Rom 7.

Perhaps I misread you earlier when you seemed to claim that Paul's statement that evil "is" present with him was past tense, pre salvation, when it's not. Same as 1 Tim 1:15

In some of Rom 7, Paul is writing from a past perspective.
That perspective was from his past, in the flesh, as a Jewish Pharisee/under the Law/persecutor of Christians.
A perspective very different from his present state of in the Spirit/dead to the Law/and preaching Christianity.
The biggest clue of his past perspective is that he answers some of his laments in other places.
For instance...Rom 7:23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
This is answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Rom 7:23 is in the past and Rom 8:2 is in the present perspective.
Another instance...Rom 7:24..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
This lamentation was answered already in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And look at Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Isn't it apparent to you that he is not in the flesh anymore?
It is to me.

You might come to recognize that Paul in these statements basically acknowledges that temptations transpire internally, and are in fact of the tempter, the devil

Temptations are not sin...though I see no use of the word temptation in Rom 7.

Paul was not looking only at himself in any of these statements. There is a very obvious shill involved that was not Paul, in 2 Cor 12:7 for example

You are jumping to conclusions.

 

[Hopeful]

Not true.

That’s not what he stated at all. He insinuated that the 613 laws of Moses we’re still active today, and thus should be kept.


Here is his statement —




My reply

Nobody said He was wrong.

The law of Moses has been abolished, having been nailed to the cross, according to God's will.


Why do you see the need to undo what God has done at the cross?

Who has bewitched you?


My question was directly relevant to misguided people who come under the influence of those who practice Judaism, and desire to undo what was done at the cross.


Again, here is what I stated —

• Why do you see the need to undo what God has done at the cross?

Who has bewitched you?



Here is what Jesus said about eating food that were forbidden under Moses law —


So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” Mark 7:18-19


Here is what Paul says, echoing Jesus —


I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14

• I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself;

You have inadvertently drawn out one post from a long exchange between Truthfrees and myself, and have missed the intent of our exchange.

 

[Truthfrees]

But Jesus said that eating everything is fine. Mark 7:18-20, "He said to them, “Are you so foolish? Don’t you understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes out into the sewer.” (This means all foods are clean.) He said, “What comes out of a person defiles him.

amen - does food make you clean or unclean before God? - no it goes in your body and comes back out - what i am saying is that when God says something there is a very good reason He does - and science keeps finding out what those very good reasons are

like circumcision - have you researched the amazing benefits of circumcision

like letting the land lay fallow on the 7th year

like the amazing truth contained in the yearly celebration of passover

so do you keep laws to be saved? no - but there are really good reasons to do as God says - if you investigate with a positive curiosity you will find out

that's why paul said don't void the law establish it - but never for salvation

 

[Hopeful]

God said not to eat pork and scavengers - must be a really good reason

does salvation come by you not eating pork and scavengers? - no

if you trust God and search for the reasons why God says the things he did you will understand paul better - one thing paul clearly said is do we void the law? no we establish it

It is written..."Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:19-22)

The Law doesn't speak to those not under the Law.
The righteousness of God is manifested without it.

 

[Truthfrees]

But Jesus said that eating everything is fine. Mark 7:18-20, "He said to them, “Are you so foolish? Don’t you understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes out into the sewer.” (This means all foods are clean.) He said, “What comes out of a person defiles him.

Paul wrote "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Roman 7:4

Try reading Paul's letter to the Galatians for the best example of Christians being freed from the OT law. This will help you understand it in brief: "You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? Have you suffered so many things for nothing?—if indeed it was for nothing. Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard? Galatians 3:1-5

amen - paul talks about the law of sin and death as a separate thing from God's holy laws aka the law of Spirit and Life - he also tries to bring this out in walk in the flesh vs walk in the Spirit - he also contrasts works by the flesh vs faith by the Spirit - iow everything paul says is a contrast between the ability of man vs the power of God - if you can see that then every law God gave can be executed by the power of God

if this is not understood then people start thinking what? - telling people to don't kill steal covet commit adultery is dead and gone? - see how it makes no sense if people think paul is saying go ahead and steal kill dishonor God eat unhealthy food ignore everything God said in Genesis-Malachi because it doesn't matter at all for any reason?

 

[Truthfrees]

It is written..."Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:19-22)

The Law doesn't speak to those not under the Law.
The righteousness of God is manifested without it.

you said in one post all the law is summed up in love God and love man

i said correct and therefore if you want to see what love God love man looks like in detail look at the law

if you keep making God's holy law about righteousness salvation etc you will continue to miss what i am saying - what i am saying is there are no wiser instruction EVER given to man to live by so if you want to find out exactly how wise they are investigate them properly - and then if you see the wisdom in them incorporate them into your life - if you don't ever see the wisdom in the 613 things God said then at least have the courtesy to allow me to live by them without being judged and opposed - or trying to force me to say you're right God's 613 were really of no importance - i will never be able to disavow the profound wisdom of God's amazing 613

 

[Hopeful]

you said in one post all the law is summed up in love God and love man

i said correct and therefore if you want to see what love God love man looks like in detail look at the law

if you keep making God's holy law about righteousness salvation etc you will continue to miss what i am saying - what i am saying is there are no wiser instruction EVER given to man to live by so if you want to find out exactly how wise they are investigate them properly - and then if you see the wisdom in them incorporate them into your life - if you don't ever see the wisdom in the 613 things God said then at least have the courtesy to allow me to live by them without being judged and opposed - or trying to force me to say you're right God 613 were really of no importance

Love God, love man is written in my heart, without the Law.
Your exploration of the goodness of the mind of God manifested in the Law is laudable, but you better never say "I can't eat that because I'm a Christian".
Know what I mean?

 

[JLB]

one thing paul clearly said is do we void the law? no we establish it

Lets take a look at what Paul said about that specifically.


Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:27-31


What is Paul saying here?


We know what He has said about the law of Moses in Romans and other letters.


What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Romans 6:15


Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Romans 7:4


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16



Does anyone honestly believe after reading these passages, that Paul is exhorting the Church to keep the law of Moses?





JLB

 

[smaller]

What we don't seem to agree on is Rom 7.

In some of Rom 7, Paul is writing from a past perspective.
That perspective was from his past, in the flesh, as a Jewish Pharisee/under the Law/persecutor of Christians.
A perspective very different from his present state of in the Spirit/dead to the Law/and preaching Christianity.
The biggest clue of his past perspective is that he answers some of his laments in other places.
For instance...Rom 7:23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
This is answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Rom 7:23 is in the past and Rom 8:2 is in the present perspective.
Another instance...Rom 7:24..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
This lamentation was answered already in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And look at Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Isn't it apparent to you that he is not in the flesh anymore?
It is to me.

Temptations are not sin...though I see no use of the word temptation in Rom 7.

You are jumping to conclusions.

We can disagree on temptations not being sin also. Jesus said evil thoughts defile us. Temptations are thoughts to violate laws, primarily and are also involved with the tempter internally, the worst sinner who has ever existed, within, tempting. Make of that what you can.

These are not past tense statements in Romans 7. Very much present tense (bold):

Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Correlates perfectly with Romans 3:9 as well. None of us are any better sinners than anyone else.

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans 7:
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Romans 7:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Exactly none of these are past tense applications.

Anyone reading Paul and coming away with thoughts that they are not sinners i.e. sometimes sinless when not committing external actions of sin, thinking they are better than other sinners, or thinking that by some form of hoodoo, their own evil present serves the laws simply isn't paying attention. The above statements nail us all quite securely to the cross of being DEAD IN SIN as far as our mortal bodies are concerned, present tense.

Romans 8:
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

That's not "used to be dead because of sin" either.

Being a sinner is the very foundation of salvation by Grace through the Mercy of God in Christ, alone. Because we don't have sickem to give to God.

Any notions that God "needs us" to perform are also useless. God is not "in need" of anything from anyone.

By His Own Will He Gives us LIFE EVERLASTING. It's a one way street.

In all honesty, we simply don't have a clue for the most part:

Colossians 3:
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[JLB]

None of us are any better sinners than anyone else.

Christians are not sinners, but are called saints; holy ones


A sinner by definition needs salvation, and is separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7 26


Saints, Christians, those who are born again, are joined to Christ, and are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17



If you don’t know the difference between sinner and saint, or joined and separated, then you really shouldn’t be posting in a Christian Forum, deceiving God’s people with Heresy.






JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Lets take a look at what Paul said about that specifically.


Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:27-31


What is Paul saying here?


We know what He has said about the law of Moses in Romans and other letters.


What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Romans 6:15


Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Romans 7:4


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16



Does anyone honestly believe after reading these passages, that Paul is exhorting the Church to keep the law of Moses?

Nope. Not at all.
I'm still wondering why the Jews who converted still kept the Law.
After all of Paul's travails against the Jews who refused to live by faith, he goes back to Jerusalem and hears..."Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:" (Acts 21:20)

Do you feel there is really anything wrong with wanting to avoid pork and shellfish just because God once said the Jews must avoid it?