Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[rogerg]

Contextual to the argument posited in this thread at the header OP - which is in any event spurious - I would say that the term we should be looking at is not the term eternal life - rather it is salvation. Eternal life is a spiritual possession - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You can see my view here Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, and Σάρξ.

Thank you, I'll ponder what you posted.

 

[Truthfrees]

I don't think it is in the hearing of the law brought sin, but rather, that law itself brought the assessment, measurement, and imputation of sin. Without law, sin could not/cannot be assessed, and hence, not imputed because until then, there was no law violated.
This brings up a very interesting and controversial topic: when did law actually become law?

How would you interpret this verse?

[1Co 15:22 KJV]
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

For if, "as in Adam all die", law must have existed from/by Adam. And if existing, then what brought
it into being because it wasn't always present. We are informed that:

[Gen 2:25 KJV]
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

but then we read:

[Gen 3:7 KJV]
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Question: what changed between Gen 2:25 and Gen 3:7 to cause that? Answer: law manifested in Gen 3:6

[Gen 3:6 KJV]
6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was law - law in concept - the law of law. By its name are we informed that Law provides demarcation (knowledge) between good and evil.

[Rom 3:20 KJV]
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

and

[Rom 5:13 KJV]
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

so, without law, no one would die because of Adam, because there would be no law existing to be violated

there was no law at the time of the flood and every human but 8 died for their sin - so it seems sin is imputed where there is no law

 

[rogerg]

there was no law at the time of the flood and every human but 8 died for their sin - so it seems sin is imputed where there is no law

I was thinking that law came into being with/by Adam and Eve, which pre-dated the flood

 

[rhomphaeam]

I was thinking that law came into being with/by Adam and Eve, which pre-dated the flood

It did brother, the law of sin and death. That came from the commandment not to eat from the fruit of the tree of good and evil and was expressed as "in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die." So we have the commandment and we have the consequence that is predicated to a law working in the members of the body. Yet Adam lived for 930 years - so either God lied or else Adam died in the day he disobeyed God. He clearly didn't die physically - though he laid down a consequence in time - and neither did he die in his person by giving up the ghost - yet he did die. And that death is usually cited as a spiritual relationship with God. Adam didn't possess the eternal life of God because we are told that God drove him from the garden so that he could not eat of the tree of life and live forever.

Of Cain we are told that sin was crouching at the door and its (his) desire was for him - but that if he did well his countenance would be lifted up. So this law of sin and death in Cain became active to disobey God in a promise of God that he would be improved in his countenance and he murdered his brother. And the pattern goes all the way to Genesis six where we are then told that every thought of man is sinful and only then does God judge sin. But that is not what Paul is saying when he speaks about sin not being reckoned before the giving of the law. That ought to be clear - yet seemingly not.

 

[Truthfrees]

I was thinking that law came into being with/by Adam and Eve, which pre-dated the flood

so you are saying every sin and evil thing that occurs is God's fault? - and He best stop speaking commands because He is creating all the evil this way? - that would make God the biggest fool in the universe for ever opening His mouth to command us to obey Him and do holy things

try that principle at home and see how upstanding and moral your children will be if you let them run wild with no holy commands - iow don't ever tell your children what to do - see how well that works -

i will leave you to pursue anti-nomian theories irl and let me know when you've given it a good try how well it works irl

i'm sticking with God as i already know irl how well Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:17-20 - Romans 3:31 have worked for everyone i know - i am extremely grateful for having been raised pro-nomian - the blessings are above and beyond through the power of God's Spirit

 

[rogerg]

It did brother, the law of sin and death. That came from the commandment not to eat from the fruit of the tree of good and evil and was expressed as "in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die." So we have the commandment and we have the consequence that is predicated to a law working in the members of the body. Yet Adam lived for 930 years - so either God lied or else Adam died in the day he disobeyed God. He clearly didn't die physically - though he laid down a consequence in time - and neither did he die in his person by giving up the ghost - yet he did die. And that death is usually cited as a spiritual relationship with God. Adam didn't possess the eternal life of God because we are told that God drove him from the garden so that he could not eat of the tree of life and live forever.

Wow, I think that I come very, very close to agreeing totally with your assessment. It is very similar to the one that I came to too. Where I do happen to perceive it somewhat differently is pretty minor. You are the first person that I've discussed this with who has thought about it in depth. There are still areas that I haven't completely reconciled in my mind or understand, so it would be good (from my perspective) to continue the discussion with you from time to time if you don't mind.
The reason I feel this topic is so important is because it seems to form the basis of the entire Bible. Please observe:

[1Co 15:22 KJV] 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That verse pretty sums it all up as far as I can see.

 

[rogerg]

so you are saying every sin and evil thing that occurs is God's fault? - and He best stop speaking commands because He is creating all the evil this way? - that would make God the biggest fool in the universe for ever opening His mouth to command us to obey Him and do holy things

Sorry, I don't understand your point at all. I was saying that Adam and Eve (not God) made law active; law caused/causes sin. How does that make anything God's fault?

 

[Truthfrees]

Sorry, I don't understand your point at all. I was saying that Adam and Eve (not God) made law active; law caused/causes sin. How does that make anything God's fault?

follow your theory through to the irl end result - read the rest of my post

 

[Norman]

Because of the law of God, I died with Christ...because of the law of God, I was resurrected with Christ.
I love the law of God! I believe that the law of God is eternal and cannot die. And now, thanks be to God, neither can I! Hallelujah!

 

[Truthfrees]

Because of the law of God, I died with Christ...because of the law of God, I was resurrected with Christ.
I love the law of God! I believe that the law of God is eternal and cannot die. And now, thanks be to God, neither can I! Hallelujah!

amen - plain simple truth

 

[rhomphaeam]

Wow, I think that I come very, very close to agreeing totally with your assessment. It is very similar to the one that I came to too. Where I do happen to perceive it somewhat differently is pretty minor. You are the first person that I've discussed this with who has thought about it in depth. There are still areas that I haven't completely reconciled in my mind or understand, so it would be good (from my perspective) to continue the discussion with you from time to time if you don't mind.
The reason I feel this topic is so important is because it seems to form the basis of the entire Bible. Please observe:

[1Co 15:22 KJV] 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That verse pretty sums it all up as far as I can see.

Yea sure. I'm tempted to say in another forum - but Ill resist the impulse.

 

[rogerg]

follow your theory through to the irl end result - read the rest of my post

I'll say it again: the introduction of law preceded the flood via Adam, Eve and Satan in the garden. Paul was entirely correct in stating that law makes sin to be assessed and reckoned -- without law sin is in fact dead

 

[rhomphaeam]

Wow, I think that I come very, very close to agreeing totally with your assessment. It is very similar to the one that I came to too. Where I do happen to perceive it somewhat differently is pretty minor. You are the first person that I've discussed this with who has thought about it in depth. There are still areas that I haven't completely reconciled in my mind or understand, so it would be good (from my perspective) to continue the discussion with you from time to time if you don't mind.
The reason I feel this topic is so important is because it seems to form the basis of the entire Bible. Please observe:

[1Co 15:22 KJV] 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That verse pretty sums it all up as far as I can see.

So to a more conciliatory response - in so far as the so -called nomians are concerned.

Divisive effects (produces) all predications out of the flesh and so when we speak of the law of sin and death you must understand that this law was not authored by God in a deterministic sense but the command to obey is the law of God to Adam, as simple a matter as it was.

So James says:

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

What Calvinism does if read properly and not divisively is to correct that appalling reality of divisiveness which is evident in the garden and is seen in the exchange of words between Satan and Adam's wife (not yet Eve) rather woman as defined by Adam in a naming convention that correlates to the same power in him by which he first named every living creature.

As believers we tend to being divisive because we sense the contradiction in many things in ourselves and in others. What I received when I first was saved in solitary confinement in 1984 was how to draw the threads of understanding but to resist weaving the garment. And if we want to gain a sense of that which in simplicity many assert is a better portion - is to state the startlingly obvious fact - Christ is our garment - not our cogent minds full of knowledge. That is why I said in an earlier post that we should focus on what salvation means chiefly to avoid becoming divisive. Christ is salvation not many things.

But divisive we are in the flesh and that divisiveness is found in the effect of the law of sin and death that so closely corresponds to Satan's ambitions to be as God - that when we walk in the flesh we are his instruments whether we believe it or not. It is a doctrinal endeavour in order to establish a litigant meaning that can be applied rationally before getting to the spiritual liberty. In short - to facilitate obedience as a requirement of law - but to properly understand that we cannot in truth obey the law of God - not simply as a fact of being in the flesh when we are in the flesh - but as a necessity of also knowing that it is Christ in us to will and to work according to His good pleasure. Not I - but Christ. Calvinism is the most robust doctrinal framework the church ever received. I don't promote or discuss Calvin or his doctrines - but I do read them. I also read my bible - and I read it first for ten months in solitary confinement before I entered the madness of church life where every semblance of decency is sought for a favour of alms and where every harm is hidden for a favour of God. So why wouldn't we seek to remove that effect?

So by all means we can discuss this issue that is raised here as to what law is at work and when and how sin is reckoned or how the entirety of humanity were downed in the flood in the day of Noah save for eight souls - but if we weave a garment from the clear threads of Scripture then we have clothed ourselves in our own understanding if we put on that garment and call ourselves after any other man - be that Calvin or Paul or any other - save for Christ. Well that's my morning rant out of the way.

Rhomphaeam

 

[JLB]

Do you mean, "The very purpose of this thread is to discredit the Apostle Paul as a valid teacher?"

Actually he believes Paul is a false teacher, who teaches against the law of Moses.

 

[Norman]

I just reread and understood. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

sounds like a great theory if God hadn't said not the smallest part of God's laws will pass away until heaven and earth pass away - Matthew 5:17-20 -

UNTIL...





“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses?


again


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19


Do you believe the Seed, the Messiah has come ?









JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

one example of paul contradicting God is paul said before the law there was NO sin - the flood proves that isn't true - for me red words win and paul is imperfect and subject to scrutiny

What Rajesh Sahu said in the OP about Jesus never actually saying the word grace is true, unless I just can't find Him using the word grace in the scriptures of what He was quoted. But beginning with Genesis 6:8 grace has been taught by the Prophets and Apostles about being God's unmerited favor, even though none of us deserve it.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Paul never contradicted Jesus as he said, sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Paul was addressing the Christian Church in Rome made up of Jews and Gentiles under the new covenant of God's grace. The laws that were given to the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite have already been fulfilled through Christ Jesus, but yet all the moral parts of the law still exist until Christ returns as we keep the moral laws by the greatest commandment of love.

 

[JLB]

What Rajesh Sahu said in the OP about Jesus never actually saying the word grace is true, unless I just can't find Him using the word grace in the scriptures of what He was quoted. But beginning with Genesis 6:8 grace has been taught by the Prophets and Apostles about being God's unmerited favor, even though none of us deserve it.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Paul never contradicted Jesus as he said, sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Paul was addressing the Christian Church in Rome made up of Jews and Gentiles under the new covenant of God's grace. The laws that were given to the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite have already been fulfilled through Christ Jesus, but yet all the moral parts of the law still exist until Christ returns as we keep the moral laws by the greatest commandment of love.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:17

 

[JLB]

Hi guys, greetings and blessings to all.
I wish to ask the vital question Is God’s Law dead/redundant now? I will rephrase

Is the Law now irrelevant to the Christian, now that he/she is under “ grace” (a word Jesus never uttered or taught)?

Before you answer, please take the following into consideration because God is very sensitive about His eternal, perennial, and imperishable Law. We must remember what happened to the Jews who chose to disobey the Law and commandments of God written by His own finger and handed over to Israelites via Moses ( Deuteronomy 9:10) and this very Law which was written by Father Gods finger was placed on the 2 tablets of MIND and HEARTS of every human ( Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16)
The disobedience of Law led to widespread devastation of the Israelites and the destruction and plunder of God’s own temple. The havoc was wrought by Father God due to the disobedience/ sin of the Israelites – to the extent that they had to eat their own flesh and flesh of each other and the flesh of their children. Jeremiah 19:7-10, Deuteronomy 28:52-57 etc.
Father God's given Law is Eternal, Perennial, magnificent says teh Bible ( Psalms 119, psalms 19:9-11, Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16 etc.)

Yet Paul says the eternal, imperishable Law of God lies written on human hearts and minds by none other than the Finger of Father God Himself "was nailed to the cross" ( check Colossians 2:14). I consider this a most audacious attack on the eternal Law of God ( which lies etched on our minds and hearts at this very moment) , and we can imagine the utter Fury of Father God for destroying/crucifying His eternal, imperishable Law.

Jesus warns ( I paraphrase) the whole universe can crash burn and disappear -- but the Law of God cannot simply go. Not even the least bit! ( Matthew 5:17-18) and repeats again in Luke 16:17 for good measure. Did you know friends nobody in the Universe dare touch Gods eternal imperishable Law which is there forever and ever? Not even the Son , our Lord Jesus can touch it and He didn’t. The obedient-to-death Son upheld the Law and warned it just can never go. ( although He did teach us HOW to obey the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets –Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Luke 10:25-28—unfortunately this precious/vital teaching of Christ went disregarded/ ignored by an overwhelming majority of the Churches

The psalmist calls God’s Law Eternal, Just , Pure ( Psalm 19:9-11) lifegiving ( Psalm 19:7 and Psalm 119:93) and goes on to state “Blessed is the one whose delight is in the Law of the LORD, and on His law, they meditate day and night ( Psalms1:1-2)

Finally, David says this about the NATURE and structure of Law:

Psalm 119:44

I will always obey Your law, forever and ever



Psalm 119:160

The sum of Your word is truth [the full meaning of all Your precepts], And every one of Your righteous ordinances endures forever.

Unfortunately, the Forever/ eternal/magnificent/life-giving Law of God as declared by father God, the Son of God Christ Jesus, and David the man after God’s heart, now stands crucified to the cross, lying dead to the Christian, for he ( the Christian) has now been saved by “Grace”—a word ( I repeat ) Jesus never taught or even uttered from His mouth. I believe the Father God is in great fury at this very minute for His Law was destroyed by one man and the entire Churches not only believed this but taught it consistently ( and continue to teach even today)
For where there is no Law there is (literally) LAWLESSNESS and Jesus our Lord condemned such people who rejected God’s Law with the following words in Matthew 7:23 :
"But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ ( NLT)

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ ( Matthew 7:23)

In light of this due diligence placed above for your prudent consideration, I respectfully ask fellow brothers and sisters :

IS THE LAW OF GOD DEAD OR NOT?

If it’s indeed dead/gone/ irrelevant please provide verses which say so – other than Paul’s who I believed taught in DIRECT contradiction to above Verses of Father God, Christ the Son, and the Psalmist ( apart from other OT / NT writers ) I will appreciate scriptural references and edification rather than personal attacks. I will appreciate being explained how God’s Perennial Law stands dead now. And even if we elect to use Paul's words to do away with the Law of God, is it prudent on our part to place Paul's words above God and the Son and Psalmist's warnings about the Law? Especially since Jesus cautioned us in John 13:16 with these words:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." Paul's ( or anyone else's, save God's ) words/doctrine can never supersede/ exceed Jesus' is what I believe He is saying

Many thanks in advance
Look forward /\
A brother in Christ, and a humble servant of our Lord
---Raj

Do you believe what Paul taught in the New Testament is true or false?

 

[for_his_glory]

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:17

What does this have to do with what I said about Jesus never speaking the word grace. Most every knows John 1:17