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Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

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for_his_glory

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This is on page 40 and it would do everyone good to go back and read the OP as this is not a thread about Paul contradicting Jesus. Please respect the ToS 1.1 and 1.3 within discussing this thread, Thank you.
 

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“But now for a brief moment grace has been shown from the Lord our God, to leave us an escaped remnant and to give us a peg in His holy place, that our God may enlighten our eyes and grant us a little reviving in our bondage." Ezra 9:8

See also

Thus says the Lord, “The people who survived the sword Found grace in the wilderness— Israel, when it went to find its rest.” The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness. “Again I will build you and you will be rebuilt, O virgin of Israel! Again you will take up your tambourines, And go forth to the dances of the merrymakers." Jeremiah 31:2-4

The Ezra quote is the first canonical instance in Scripture that the precept of grace as an unmerited act of God is specifically cited.

That remnant who came back from exile were under the Law of Moses - which is to say under the judgement of the Law of Moses - so that unmerited grace was to rebuild the temple and reestablish the Law of Moses by reestablishing the Temple sacrifices and reestablishing the Levitical priesthood.

Whereas:

"For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

To Whit:

"For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." John 1:17-18
 

for_his_glory

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there was no law at the time of the flood and every human but 8 died for their sin - so it seems sin is imputed where there is no law
Yes there were laws, seven to be exact as they are called the Noahic Commandments.

www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are now binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah, and none today on this side of the cross as we are all one in the Spirit of God, Galatians 3:28. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13, and until the days of Jacob there was no land called Israel or any laws pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as none of that existed yet. What there were was seven to begin with that are the laws that are written on our heart. Laws were added to as the generations grew until there became 613 that became a curse as no one could ever follow all of them.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16 the Babylonian Talmud listed six commandments given first to Adam and then again to Noah after the flood. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all the first part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow that are written upon our heart. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the righteousness of the laws, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
 

rhomphaeam

 
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Yes there were laws, seven to be exact as they are called the Noahic Commandments.

www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are now binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah, and none today on this side of the cross as we are all one in the Spirit of God, Galatians 3:28. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13, and until the days of Jacob there was no land called Israel or any laws pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as none of that existed yet. What there were was seven to begin with that are the laws that are written on our heart. Laws were added to as the generations grew until there became 613 that became a curse as no one could ever follow all of them.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16 the Babylonian Talmud listed six commandments given first to Adam and then again to Noah after the flood. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all the first part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow that are written upon our heart. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the righteousness of the laws, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

Thats an interesting construct. But can you show me from Genesis where these laws are laid down as you describe from the Babylonian Talmud? Not a reference to an expression of the Law and the Prophets not passing away - but the express claim as stated:

Seven Laws.
 

for_his_glory

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Thats an interesting construct. But can you show me from Genesis where these laws are laid down as you describe from the Babylonian Talmud? Not a reference to an expression of the Law and the Prophets not passing away - but the express claim as stated:

Seven Laws.
Genesis 2:16 was the first commandment given to Adam. I do not have access to the Babylonian Talmud, but if you go to that website you can look these up there. Also do a search on the Noahic Laws.

www.jewfag.org
 

rhomphaeam

 
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So here is the Talmudic derivation contracted from a single verse at Genesis 2:16

BABYLONIAN TALMUD, supra note 2, Sanhedrin at 56b1. The words

"He commanded," refers to a system of law; the word "Lord,"(Hashem) refers to "blessing," that is, cursing the name of God; the word "God," refers to idolatry, "upon the," means murder, "saying" (which is also redundant), refers to sexual transgressions, "of every tree of the garden" alludes to theft, and "you may surely eat," prohibits eating the limb taken from a live animal. Each of these meanings is supported by the use of the same words appearing in other verses.

The reason why this matters is because when Genesis was first spoken, Adam was innocent - and all that God had made was good. So whilst the legal precepts given to Noah stand as they are written - to impute onto Adam in his innocence and without sin - may remove a meaning that is only revealed in the advent of Christ. In the meaning of the promised seed in Genesis 3:15. To make an argument out of Genesis 2:16 to equate to the Noahic Commandments is to deflect from the gospel delivered to Paul out of season and in my view speaks to the meaning of this thread as stated variously in this thread by the author.

The claimants to this interpretation of Genesis 2:16 are the sages who are quoted in the Babylonian Talmud. I could cite the Talmud directly and extensively if you wish. But I can't think that it is necessary seeing as I already expressed my opinion as to why the thread was written - or at least in its direction. The idea of the law of God written on the heart is used to express this Talmudic precept without qualifying either the term itself or addressing what this law of God written on mens hearts is claimed to be.
 
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for_his_glory

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rhomphaeam I did find where it is written in the Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Sanhedrin 56ab, but have not read it. I am going to have to order a copy of the Babylonian Talmud.
 

for_his_glory

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Enjoy that sister. There is no Avodah Zarah 8:4.

From my copy:

View attachment 13356
Sorry, but the print is to small for me to read, but whether or not Adam was given these seven laws we do know they were given to Noah first before they were once again given to Moses. What it all boils down to is what laws we are to keep and what laws are already fulfilled by Christ as we are still to keep the moral laws by the greatest commandment of love.

The moral parts of the 613 laws are: prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.
 

Rajesh Sahu

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Do you believe what Paul taught in the New Testament is true or false?
Answer is FALSE. He taught corrupted doctrine and subverted the pristine doctrine of Christ. Paul is the false prophet Christ repeatedly warned about/ gave a heads up about in His ministry. My 56 minute long video deals extensively with that matter, and the seven times /places where He warned us. I wish not to debate that here.
 

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Answer is FALSE. He taught corrupted doctrine and subverted the pristine doctrine of Christ. Paul is the false prophet Christ repeatedly warned about/ gave a heads up about in His ministry. My 56 minute long video deals extensively with that matter, and the seven times /places where He warned us. I wish not to debate that here.

If you don't want to discuss the video as you claim then you're in the wrong place Rajesh because this is a discussion forum. Your video is nonsense. You need to take a rest. I have news for Sahu - the entire Ummah of Islam believes that Paul is a deceiver - in fact they single him out for express insult. The Jewish orthodoxy find Paul to be a deceiver. So where then is this rarity you claim exists that makes you singular? The spirit in which you are speaking isn't rare at all. It fills the world and it is increasingly filling the church.
 
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rhomphaeam

 
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Sorry, but the print is to small for me to read, but whether or not Adam was given these seven laws we do know they were given to Noah first before they were once again given to Moses. What it all boils down to is what laws we are to keep and what laws are already fulfilled by Christ as we are still to keep the moral laws by the greatest commandment of love.

The moral parts of the 613 laws are: prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

I don't need a lecture as though I were simple minded. What you posted is not in the Scripture save by a Jewish argument written in a book that expressly slanders Christ. So can I ask why you felt a need to uphold the Talmud or what the benefit is to us all. We do understand that we are accountable before God for our postings.
 
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Rajesh Sahu

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I
If you don't want to discuss the video as you claim then you're in the wrong place Rajesh because this is a discussion forum. Your video is nonsense. You need to take a rest. I have news for Sahu - the entire Ummah of Islam believes that Paul is a deceiver - in fact they single him out for express insult. The Jewish orthodoxy find Paul to be a deceiver. So where then is this rarity you claim exists that makes you singular? The spirit in which you are speaking isn't rare at all. It fills the world and it is increasingly filling the church.
Didn't know all these guys also knew the truth 😁 Thank you 4 sharing brother 👍🙏 Was kind of obvious anyways
 
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rhomphaeam

 
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Didn't know all these guys also knew the truth 😁 Thank you 4 sharing brother 👍🙏

Of course you are thankful. It's obvious isn't it? You remove in a single stroke the bulk of the New Testament and then claim to be holding the pristine doctrine of Christ high over. I'm British, Sahu - not a US citizen. I understand the conflation you have presented already. It came out of the British Raj.
 

Rajesh Sahu

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Of course you are thankful. It's obvious isn't it? You remove in a single stroke the bulk of the New Testament and then claim to be holding the pristine doctrine of Christ high over. I'm British, Sahu - not a US citizen. I understand the conflation you have presented already. It came out of the British Raj.
I love you yet brother ✝️ I'm used to being attacked for my understanding/ interpretation of the Word 😊God bless all
 

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Yes there were laws, seven to be exact as they are called the Noahic Commandments.

www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are now binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah, and none today on this side of the cross as we are all one in the Spirit of God, Galatians 3:28. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13, and until the days of Jacob there was no land called Israel or any laws pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as none of that existed yet. What there were was seven to begin with that are the laws that are written on our heart. Laws were added to as the generations grew until there became 613 that became a curse as no one could ever follow all of them.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16 the Babylonian Talmud listed six commandments given first to Adam and then again to Noah after the flood. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all the first part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow that are written upon our heart. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the righteousness of the laws, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
the noachide laws were given after the flood

the only law given at the time of the flood was do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil - but that was in eden - and eden was vacant of people so that no one could eat from the tree of life

so the anti-nomian position is that all evil on earth ever is because God said don't eat from a tree? - and then after the flood all evil on earth is due to the 7 noachide laws? - and then after moses all evil is due to the 613? - do you see how this could be considered an indictment of God? - it's His fault for ever giving any laws? - could God be so foolish as to set sin into the world through holy laws? - no - holy produces holy and evil produces evil

if this is what anti-nomians claim then put this theory into practice at home to see how well that works - don't ever tell your child what to do and see if absence of law creates sin or law creates sin - or try that in society and see how well that works in your community

nomians already know the answer to this question and soundly reject anti-nomian theology - Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:17-20 - Romans 3:31 remain our standard - that is why sincere nomian communities have Godly peace - unlike anti-nomian communities that call each other names and hate on each other - that is why God promotes love and peace via His holy laws - and hypocrites make up manmade laws to promote hate and division

it also seems strange that anti-nomians race to defend what they think paul said and throw God and His holy laws under the bus in an instant - this seems so evil to nomians - and that is why most nomians write anti-nomians off as lost and lawless - Matthew 7:23 - nomians think every word that came out of God's mouth is holy - anti-nomians think it is stinky garbage to throw out
 

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What Rajesh Sahu said in the OP about Jesus never actually saying the word grace is true, unless I just can't find Him using the word grace in the scriptures of what He was quoted. But beginning with Genesis 6:8 grace has been taught by the Prophets and Apostles about being God's unmerited favor, even though none of us deserve it.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Paul never contradicted Jesus as he said, sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Paul was addressing the Christian Church in Rome made up of Jews and Gentiles under the new covenant of God's grace. The laws that were given to the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite have already been fulfilled through Christ Jesus, but yet all the moral parts of the law still exist until Christ returns as we keep the moral laws by the greatest commandment of love.
paul to the gentiles speaks of grace - the other apostles to the jews speak of love faithfulness holiness sincerity - jews already knew torah and the promises and prophecy

for many years before paul was converted and spent years in solitary the first believers were all jews or converts to a sect of judaism called the way which paul eventually claimed to be a part of - they were all law keepers and circumcized

by the time converted paul came on the scene the way was well established as a sect of judaism - paul started preaching his brand of gospel which had some unacceptable elements - so paul left jews and went exclusively to gentiles who accepted everything paul said - jews and converts to the way continued to be a sect of judaism until 170 ad at the bar kochba revolt where rabbi akiva declared bar kochba messiah - the jews of the way withdrew from the revolt for this reason and the romans cruelly destroyed the jews - the jews threw the way out of judaism forever

so in paul's gospel days he went to the gentiles and the other apostles went to the jews - jews and converts to the way attended synagogue and kept torah - paul's gentiles did not - it appears that peter and some jews attended the gatherings of paul's gentiles but paul's gentiles did not attend synagogue or keep torah

the Acts 21 council were the jewish leaders of the way - who accepted that paul's gentiles could live as noachides - and the jews of the way and converts to the way would continue to be torah observant and attend synagogue
 

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paul to the gentiles speaks of grace - the other apostles to the jews speak of love faithfulness holiness sincerity - jews already knew torah and the promises and prophecy

for many years before paul was converted and spent years in solitary the first believers were all jews or converts to a sect of judaism called the way which paul eventually claimed to be a part of - they were all law keepers and circumcized

by the time converted paul came on the scene the way was well established as a sect of judaism - paul started preaching his brand of gospel which had some unacceptable elements - so paul left jews and went exclusively to gentiles who accepted everything paul said - jews and converts to the way continued to be a sect of judaism until 170 ad at the bar kochba revolt where rabbi akiva declared bar kochba messiah - the jews of the way withdrew from the revolt for this reason and the romans cruelly destroyed the jews - the jews threw the way out of judaism forever

so in paul's gospel days he went to the gentiles and the other apostles went to the jews - jews and converts to the way attended synagogue and kept torah - paul's gentiles did not - it appears that peter and some jews attended the gatherings of paul's gentiles but paul's gentiles did not attend synagogue or keep torah
I find these events/ incidents extremely interesting . Thank you for sharing 🙏
Always good to minutely observe / learn / study / scrutinize how Christianity evolved . And compare it to the Gold Standard , which is the doctrine that proceeded directly from the mouth of Christ and remain captured in the red lettered words . That is the Gold Standard for me, and I compare everything everyone else said in NT and compare it with Christ's teachings. If I find a deviation / divergence/ disparity I choose Christ's words ( John 13:16) above all others.
This is just my way of understanding the narrative.
 
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Truthfrees

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I find these events/ incidents extremely interesting . Thank you for sharing 🙏
Always good to minutely observe / learn / study / scrutinize how Christianity evolved .
amen - true history is fascinating - much to be learned

i wanted to know what happened to the way and why all gentiles didn't join the way -

this thread helps me understand better why nomians keep to themselves and do not discuss the things of God with anti-nomians
 
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