Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[JLB]

A law that you do not keep, fulfill, or uphold in some way is a law that has been destroyed/abolished.

Your doctrine does that to the law of Moses. You say we have no obligation to uphold or fulfill it, but rather our faith upholds and fulfills another law.

The law of Moses requires that a person who does not keep the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses be put to physical death.


You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Exodus 31:14

I do not obey this law.

If this law is written on your heart, then you should obey it.

I'm not under the law of Moses.

If I break this one law of Moses I am guilty of breaking all the law of Moses.


Thanks be to God that Christ redeemed me from the law.

Now I am under the law of Christ, Who is the Mediator of the New Covenant, as Moses was the mediator of the Law.

That is why it was called the law of Moses.


The law of Moses is not written on my heart.

The law of Christ is.



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, that is why it's called the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2


The law of Moses was added, until the Seed should come. That Seed is Christ.

Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, not Moses.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

The Levitical Priesthood does not administrate the law of the New Covenant, It is administrated by Jesus after the order of Melchizedek.


The law of Moses is not in force today, the law of Christ under the New Testament is.

The law of Moses has been made Obsolete by God Himself, having nailed it to the cross he has taken it out of the way.

The laws and commandments of God that Abraham obeying 430 years before the law of Moses was added, and were seen in the law of Moses are eternal and are still applicable today in the New Covenant, being God's Kingdom laws and commandments.


Love God and Love your neighbor have always been God's laws since the beginning and did not originate with Moses.



JLB

If I understand your post correctly, I agree.

tim-from-pa
This is what I said and you quoted...

Saturday sabbath, feasts, kosher food and clothing, wearing tzitzit on four corners, etc. still stands?
Those things are not ceremonial they are a way of life, God said so.

You responded with...

Yep they do. But humanly speaking we often fail. The purpose of Christ was to redeem us from the curse of the Law. He forgives us 70 times 7 but we get up, dust ourselves off and continue on. But those standards still apply like Lewis said.

Are you saying that God is continually forgiving us for not doing all the things of the Law of Moses?
If that is the case, then I need to repent and start Doing them. Faith without works is dead faith.

 

[JLB]

The whole world is under, and has to be redeemed from the curse--the condemnation--of the law.

"19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God" (Romans 3:19 NASB)


And Paul says we are set free from the curse and condemnation of the law so that we can then uphold it's righteous requirement:

"He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us..." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB)


But you say 1) we aren't even under the the law to begin with (that's for the Jews only), and 2) we aren't saved from the condemnation of the law (which you said was only for the Jews?) to then 'keep' the righteous requirement(s) of the law, but to keep a different law. Your doctrine not only doesn't make sense, it directly contradicts scripture.

The law of sin and death is what Adam violated and subjected the whole world to.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14


The law of sin and death is what is in our members that every man inherited from Adam.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22-23

I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


The law of Christ, or the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ has made me free from, not from the obsolete law of Moses, but the law of sin and death.


The law of sin and death is what the whole world is under.

The soul that sins shall die!


JLB

 

[TOG]

Wrong!

I did not say that.

You and Jethro seem to have the same "issue" as you both add things to what people say, the same way you add things to what the scripture says.


I didn't say nullified.

Actually, you did.

The language says - cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ.


The language does not say - it does not nullify any covenants He has made previously.

The implication of what you said is that the law has been nullified.

I said nailed to the cross.


He made it obsolete, taken out of the way, and nailed it to the cross.

Yes, that's what you said in the post I was repllying to, but I was also referring to things you have previously said. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

When discussing a controversial subject, I use the exact phrases the scripture uses.

I heard a story once about a boy in Sunday school who did that. The children were given an assignment one Sunday. They were to pick 3 Bible verses of their own choosing and memorize them. The following week, the teacher called on little Johnny and asked "Johnny, what verses did you learn?" Johnny replied:

and he went and hanged himself. (Matt. 27:5)
You go, and do likewise. (Luke 10:37)
What you are going to do, do quickly. (John 13:27)​

Using the same words doesn't mean anything, if you don't use them in the same way they were meant to be used.

Example of Jethro adding to what the scripture says.

Why I quote what the scripture says in Galatians 3:19 -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19

Now Jethro doesn't like what that verse teaches, so he just "adds" his own words to this scripture, and says -

"the way the law of Moses was kept was added"...

He wasn't adding to Scripture. He was explaining how he understands it.

You on the other hand, when asked a simple question, such as are Gentiles living in America under the law of Moses, you answer, not any scripture mind you, just your say we are to try and keep as much as we can, not the ones that are impossible to keep.

LOL!!! That is truly funny.

You asked for my opinion and I gave you my opinion. If you wanted a Bible verse, you should have asked for one. But if you think it's funny when people give you what you ask for, then there's nothing I can do about that. That's your problem.

That's why the children of Israel have been redeemed from the law, because they couldn't keep it and desperately needed a Savior.

But they could keep the law. The Bible says so.

For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. (Deut. 30:11-14 ESV)
​

Since God clearly says that the commandments were not too hard to keep, saying that they needed a savior because it was impossible to keep the law contradicts God's Word. It also implies that the law was given for the same reason that Jesus came, i.e. to provide salvation. That is not the case. The law was never meant for salvation. If what you say is true, then that means that God demanded something He knew was impossible as a means of salvation, thereby condemning everyone to Hell until Jesus came. I don't believe God would do that. Either it was possible to keep the law, or the law was not a means of salvation or both.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of Moses was added, until the Seed should come. That Seed is Christ.

I see where he says we don't have to walk in the literal covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice that has been laid aside as obsolete and unneeded now, but according to your doctrine why does Paul command us to fulfill the law of Moses that you say we don't have to fulfill because it also is obsolete?

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

The Levitical Priesthood does not administrate the law of the New Covenant, It is administrated by Jesus after the order of Melchizedek.

We know the first covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice was made no longer needed by the work of Christ and his Priesthood and Sacrifice. But how does that make the law itself, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' also obsolete and no longer required to be fulfilled by us? Especially since Paul tells us to fulfill the law of Moses by loving others. You say we don't have to fulfill that law. Paul says we do. Sorry, but I'm not going to listen to you over and above what Paul says.

The law of Moses is not in force today, the law of Christ under the New Testament is.

Why does Paul tell us to fulfill the law of Moses then?

The law of Moses has been made Obsolete by God Himself, having nailed it to the cross he has taken it out of the way.

Then why does Paul tell us to fulfill a law that we no longer have to fulfill?

The laws and commandments of God that Abraham obeying 430 years before the law of Moses was added, and were seen in the law of Moses are eternal and are still applicable today in the New Covenant, being God's Kingdom laws and commandments.


Love God and Love your neighbor have always been God's laws since the beginning and did not originate with Moses.

So, 'do not steal', for example, when 'handwritten' on a piece of stone suddenly becomes a different law than the law 'do not steal' floating around in space since the beginning, and that faith keeps that one, but doesn't have to keep the one written in stone because it was taken out of the way?

 

[TOG]

Love God and Love your neighbor have always been God's laws since the beginning and did not originate with Moses.

Do you have a Bible verse to support that, or are you adding to Scripture? You cannot claim that this or any other commandment existed before Moses just because it suits your doctrine. If you are going to make claims like this, then provide a Scripture reference to support that claim. While your at it, support your earlier claim that the commandment against theft was in existence before Moses. I searched and only found the word "steal" twice before it appears in the Ten Commandments. The first was when Laban (a Pagan) accused Jacob of having stolen his gods when he left, and the second was when Josephs brothers were accused of stealing and breaking an Egyptian (Pagan) law. I found no commandment given to God's people concerning stealing. However, there is a reference to clean and unclean animals as far back as Noah. If you want to keep the laws that existed before Moses, then you should keep all of them, including eating only clean animals, and not just keep the ones you like.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of Moses requires that a person who does not keep the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses be put to physical death.


You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Exodus 31:14

I do not obey this law.

You don't have to keep this first covenant literal requirement. Not because it's been abolished, but because it is no longer needed for a people who have been brought near to God and into the required Sabbath Rest through Christ that the first covenant requirement only pointed to. When you placed your faith in Christ you fulfilled, not abolished God's requirement for Sabbath Rest. And everybody who does not enter into Christ, God's Sabbath Rest will most assuredly be put to death.

If this law is written on your heart, then you should obey it.

I'm not under the law of Moses.

If I break this one law of Moses I am guilty of breaking all the law of Moses.

Sadly, you can still only understand the law of Moses in regard to it's literal first covenant fulfillment. That's why you don't understand this subject. You're not alone. Most in the church can only think of the law in terms of literal first covenant fulfillment.

Thanks be to God that Christ redeemed me from the law.

Hmm....I could have sworn you said you were never under the law to begin with. This illustrates one reason why I say your doctrine makes no sense. So which is it, were you ever under the law of Moses, or not, JLB??? Why does Christ need to deliver you from a law you have said was never binding on you, a gentile, to begin with???

The law of Moses is not written on my heart.

The law of Christ is.

You are so wrong. When you believed, you showed that you had the law of Passover, for example, written on your heart. Not the literal first covenant requirement for Passover, but the law in regard to the whole world, Israelite and gentile, requiring the sacrifice of a Passover Lamb and it's blood and body for deliverance from the destroying angel.

 

[Deborah13]

And Paul says we are set free from the curse and condemnation of the law so that we can then uphold it's righteous requirement:

"He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us..." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB)

What is the requirement of the Law?

Answer.....
Absolute perfect righteousness without spot or wrinkle!!
More perfect answer, Jesus the Christ.

That the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled IN us, not BY us.

We get into the kingdom by touching the hem of His garment, His tzitzit, through faith in His finished work. Just like Abraham did. And that includes Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you have a Bible verse to support that, or are you adding to Scripture? You cannot claim that this or any other commandment existed before Moses just because it suits your doctrine. If you are going to make claims like this, then provide a Scripture reference to support that claim. While your at it, support your earlier claim that the commandment against theft was in existence before Moses. I searched and only found the word "steal" twice before it appears in the Ten Commandments. The first was when Laban (a Pagan) accused Jacob of having stolen his gods when he left, and the second was when Josephs brothers were accused of stealing and breaking an Egyptian (Pagan) law. I found no commandment given to God's people concerning stealing. However, there is a reference to clean and unclean animals as far back as Noah. If you want to keep the laws that existed before Moses, then you should keep all of them, including eating only clean animals, and not just keep the ones you like.

The TOG​

JLB has a way of avoiding and not answering these logical points you make to him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled IN us, not BY us.

Who walk according to what, Deborah?

The requirement(s) of the law do not get fulfilled in a person unless they walk according to what?

What does the passage say?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Deborah, you get offended so easily, but honestly if you would just put the spirit of offense down and stop thinking of the law of Moses only in regard to it's literal first covenant requirements you might get this.

Please take this in the spirit of Christian love.

 

[JLB]

Actually, you did.



The implication of what you said is that the law has been nullified.



Yes, that's what you said in the post I was repllying to, but I was also referring to things you have previously said. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.



I heard a story once about a boy in Sunday school who did that. The children were given an assignment one Sunday. They were to pick 3 Bible verses of their own choosing and memorize them. The following week, the teacher called on little Johnny and asked "Johnny, what verses did you learn?" Johnny replied:

and he went and hanged himself. (Matt. 27:5)
You go, and do likewise. (Luke 10:37)
What you are going to do, do quickly. (John 13:27)​

Using the same words doesn't mean anything, if you don't use them in the same way they were meant to be used.



He wasn't adding to Scripture. He was explaining how he understands it.



You asked for my opinion and I gave you my opinion. If you wanted a Bible verse, you should have asked for one. But if you think it's funny when people give you what you ask for, then there's nothing I can do about that. That's your problem.



But they could keep the law. The Bible says so.

For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. (Deut. 30:11-14 ESV)
​

Since God clearly says that the commandments were not too hard to keep, saying that they needed a savior because it was impossible to keep the law contradicts God's Word. It also implies that the law was given for the same reason that Jesus came, i.e. to provide salvation. That is not the case. The law was never meant for salvation. If what you say is true, then that means that God demanded something He knew was impossible as a means of salvation, thereby condemning everyone to Hell until Jesus came. I don't believe God would do that. Either it was possible to keep the law, or the law was not a means of salvation or both.

The TOG​

Name one person in the whole world who has ever kept the law of Moses, besides Jesus Christ.


If it's not to hard then lot's of people should have kept it.


JLB

 

[TOG]

JLB has a way of avoiding and not answering these logical points you make to him.

I've noticed that. But I've been guilty of that in the past myself. I have sometimes refused to listen when something contradicts my beliefs. But when God has wanted to get something across to me, He hasn't given up. Through friends, forums, Internet sites, videos and other methods, I've kept hearing the same message again and again until it finally broke through. Maybe JLB will eventually check these things out and change his views.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

Deborah, you get offended so easily, but honestly if you would just put the spirit of offense down and stop thinking of the law of Moses only in regard to it's literal first covenant requirements you might get this.

Please take this in the spirit of Christian love.

There is only one law of Moses.

Matthew 5 -

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' - law of Moses

39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. - law of Christ


43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' - law of Moses


44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, - law of Christ



JLB

 

[JLB]

I've noticed that. But I've been guilty of that in the past myself. I have sometimes refused to listen when something contradicts my beliefs. But when God has wanted to get something across to me, He hasn't given up. Through friends, forums, Internet sites, videos and other methods, I've kept hearing the same message again and again until it finally broke through. Maybe JLB will eventually check these things out and change his views.

The TOG​

If you have a scripture please post it and let's discuss.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What law, besides the allowance to get a divorce, which Rabbi Moses himself was entitled to add to the law, did not, or does not get fulfilled and honored, not abolished, in this New Covenant?

As TOG points out, if God abolished the old covenant, as JLB's doctrine does whether he realizes it or not, what confidence should we take that ANY covenant he makes will not one day be abolished?

God in his wisdom laid the literal old covenant stipulations aside, not leaving any of them unfulfilled so as to abolish them. But the church at large has the old covenant, and the law of Moses abolished, not fulfilled, because it can only think of the first covenant and the law of Moses in terms of literal fulfillment.

Jesus did NOT come to abolish the law of Moses. He came to fulfill it. And since he fulfilled it the literal first covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice can 'disappear' from the law in that they no longer have to be literally fulfilled. But that hardly equates to faith abolishing and nullifying the law of Moses. Quite the opposite. But that is what so many people misunderstand. Faith upholds and fulfills the law of Moses, not abolishes it in favor of another law. The NT plainly says this. But if you can only think of the law of Moses in terms of literal first covenant fulfillment you won't get it. Your eyes will just gloss right over what Paul and Jesus say.

 

[Deborah13]

Do you have a Bible verse to support that, or are you adding to Scripture? While your at it, support your earlier claim that the commandment against theft was in existence before Moses. I searched and only found the word "steal" twice before it appears in the Ten Commandments.

The TOG​

This is the verse that tells me it is wrong to steal, it was given in the garden.
Gen 3:19 by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou art , and unto dust thou turnest back.'

We are to work for what we have. If we take what another person has worked for we are stealing his bread rather than earning our own.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is only one law of Moses.

Matthew 5 -

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' - law of Moses

Do you think that this law just went away?

Christ is your 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth'. He FULFILLED this law of Moses, not abolished it as your doctrine does to it.

39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. - law of Christ


43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' - law of Moses

Do you think for a moment you do not have to hate your enemy???? Do you think this command 'went away' and was abolished because of Christ?

You don't know 'who' wars against your soul as your enemy if you think that. This law did not 'go away' in the New Covenant. It is fulfilled by those who walk according to the Spirit.

.

 

[TOG]

Name one person in the whole world who has ever kept the law of Moses, besides Jesus Christ.

If it's not to hard then lot's of people should have kept it.

JLB

Now who's adding to what others have said? I never said anyone had kept it, only that it wasn't too hard to keep. It is possible to walk from Norway to South Africa, but that doesn't mean anyone has ever done it. If you're in good shape, it's not too hard, but it takes a lot of time and, so far, nobody has been willing to put that time into it. It's the same with the law. It's not too hard the way God gave it (it's more difficult after men have mangled it over the past few millennia) but it takes effort and complete submission to God and allowing His Spirit to guide us in everything we do, and nobody except Christ has yet done that.

If you have a scripture please post it and let's discuss.

Do I have a Scripture verse that shows that I am guilty of the same things as you are. Sorry, no. I can't provide you with that verse. But I must say that I think you're being totally unreasonable asking me to do so. I could just as well ask you to provide a Scripture verse to tell me what you had for dinner last night. It would make about as much sense.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is the verse that tells me it is wrong to steal, it was given in the garden.
Gen 3:19 by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou art , and unto dust thou turnest back.'

We are to work for what we have. If we take what another person has worked for we are stealing his bread rather than earning our own.

So how does that not become a fulfillment of the law of Moses when you 'don't steal' in this New Covenant?

Paul says when I love others (do them no harm) I fulfill the law of Moses. But so many of you are sure he is wrong and that it fulfills another law, not the law of Moses (however that works).

It's easy to see how this 'two law' doctrine was invented to mend an imaginary rift between the cessation of the literal first covenant temple, priesthood, and sacrifice, and the fear that obedience can't fulfill the law of Moses in this New Covenant, somehow contradicting the end of the literal first covenant, and endorsing a 'works' gospel. The problem is, that doctrine violates so many other scriptures. Especially the one that specifically says we fulfill, not nullify the law of Moses, by our faith in Christ.