Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[TOG]

Those are statements from scripture.

You can call what the scripture states whatever you like.


JLB

You aimed those statements at me, implying that I had said them. You implied that I believed that the law takes away our sins, gives us life and justifies us. I never said that. Nobody in this thread has said that. Address what people actually say, and don't make up false implications about them.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

If you have been to school then I know you can read what the plain words say.

We (Jews) are no longer under the law.

For you are not under the law but under Grace.


JLB

You didn't answer my question. Has the law been your tutor? Yes or no? It it has and if you have kept the law, then you should not be afraid to say so. But if not, then you cannot take the verse for yourself that says you no longer need a tutor.

The TOG​

 

[smaller]

If you have been to school then I know you can read what the plain words say.

We (Jews) are no longer under the law.

For you are not under the law but under Grace.

JLB

Grace condemns sin just as readily as law.

 

[tinykitten]

Those are statements from scripture.

You can call what the scripture states whatever you like.


JLB

Having had my encounter with a very interesting type on forums I have to tell you I'm mugging your remarks here and adding them as a signature. True words that speak volumes for what one thread has declared was sock accounts looking to cause conflict. Well said!

 

[JLB]

If you actually knew the covenant made with Moses, and you actually understood what the Law declares to you, then you would have known that the old covenant was temporary, until the everlasting covenant of Peace should be established. In this I have full confidence.

Isaiah 54:6-10
For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

Like!!!

 

[JLB]

You aimed those statements at me, implying that I had said them. You implied that I believed that the law takes away our sins, gives us life and justifies us. I never said that. Nobody in this thread has said that. Address what people actually say, and don't make up false implications about them.

The TOG​

Not true.

 

[JLB]

Grace condemns sin just as readily as law.

Even more so.

 

[ezrider]

Grace condemns sin just as readily as law.

Grace does more so than does the law. We fear the condemnation of the law and we fear to know sin in ourselves. But because we hold this knowledge in unrighteousness, we do not hold this knowledge within ourselves, instead we project it upon others as we judge them for their sins. But with Grace comes the acceptance of our failures before the law, and the willingness to know them and understand them within ourselves. To know the Righteousness of God in Christ.

 

[smaller]

Grace does more so than does the law. We fear the condemnation of the law and we fear to know sin in ourselves. But because we hold this knowledge in unrighteousness, we do not hold this knowledge within ourselves, instead we project it upon others as we judge them for their sins. But with Grace comes the acceptance of our failures before the law, and the willingness to know them and understand them within ourselves. To know the Righteousness of God in Christ.

Indeedeeroo!

We should not be led into dishonesty by either law or by Grace. We all stand before God with the facts of an EVIL conscience regardless of how much legal or grace paint we try vainly to apply to that fact.

 

[smaller]

God Himself set before us, in this environment, both GOOD and EVIL.

The knowledge of evil resulting in an evil conscience has defiled all of us and it is that evil conscience that will continue to stand condemned by either law or grace. That meal has already been internally ingested and has been so in every person save God Himself in flesh.

There is no getting past the condemnation of God. The evil conscience is in fact the source of our imperfections.

The promise of the Gospel is not to assuage the evil conscience, the evil works or the evil deeds of anyone. On the contrary. Those matters under Grace also remain utterly condemned.

With the Gospel comes the understanding of the basis of our defiling and our HOPE for it's eventual eradication and the change to our NEW BODY which will not be therein defiled.

The Presence of Living Word, Jesus Christ in us stands precisely to be between us and our own evil conscience.

Jesus will never lead us into being liars about having an evil conscience.

It is precisely because of that we cast ourselves upon Him for our division from that working. This is the essence of the BROKEN and the WEAK and the HONEST.

ALL who call upon Him shall be broken, and the fate of the evil conscience is to be ground to powder.

When believers read this fact below, they automatically gravitate to only one side of the matters when both matters are a fact:

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

This is God in us, dividing us or breaking us in Him from our evil conscience while simultaneously grinding our evil conscience down to nothing.

 

[Deborah13]

Cut to the chase. Does obedience to 'do not steal' and similar laws nullify or uphold and fulfill the law of Moses, or not? What does Paul say? What does the church say?

If Paul says our obedience to 'do no harm', thus loving others, fulfills the law of Moses, why does the church say it is NOT the law of Moses that gets fulfilled and upheld by the obedience of faith, instead insisting that it 'went away' in it's entirety in favor of some other law?

Of course, it's this misguided fear that to acknowledge fulfillment of the law in this New Covenant is somehow contradictory to the gospel of grace. The problem is the church does not understand Paul's grace/law teaching, not that the law of Moses gets fulfilled, not nullified, by faith in this New Covenant.

I have absolutely no fear in knowing the Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly because I could not.
I have no fear in not judging my brothers and sisters in Christ for what they eat or drink, wear or don't wear, feasts that they keep or don't keep. In the Sabbath day that they meet together to worship God.
Paul calls it the law of liberty, in Christ.

I agree. Whether we reject God or follow Him, we have to choose the way we go. We can choose life and follow God or we can reject Him and choose death.

The TOG​

But Paul says that man knew all these evils things in Romans 1:29-31, from the very beginning. Adam knew these things. All of us know these things.
God is a just God, He doesn't and never did condemn anyone without cause.
I think you can clearly see that all the moral laws are included in this knowledge and that all men have been given this knowledge.
The only way one can argue with this scripture would be to disqualify Paul as an apostle.
The head hunter living in the middle of the jungle knows that what he does is wrong when he murders. The thief in the night knew that he is wrong to steal long before Moses law.
It is the knowledge of sin.

 

[smaller]

Paul didn't deny how he was made. On the contrary, he OPENLY EXPOSED his own internal wickedness, as he was DIVINELY LED to do so.

Here is the voice of an honest believer. Would such an honest believer even be heard in the pulpits today? Unlikely!

Romans 7:8
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Does Paul really have to drag out every detail of this? No. It is enough for him to EXPOSE it as 'all manner of concupiscence.' Details notwithstanding and not needed. All we need to do to 'compare' is to examine OURSELVES and find the same things happening INTERNALLY.

Here is the voice of an honest believer again:

Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

That is not an "I used to be a sinner" comment. He deployed a 'present tense' reality of having sin and the fact that he was then presently sold under sin and carnal.

Here is the voice of an honest believer again

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Do you see that statement as past tense? "I used to do EVIL?" No! It's present tense deployment. Does that sound like a man playing church in front of his saved friends?

Here is the voice of an honest believer again:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Did Paul say evil "used to be present with me?" No! It's a present tense deployment of fact.

Here is the voice of an honest believer again:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Did Paul say "sinners of whom I used to be chief"? No! That is a present tense deployment of his factual status of being the chief of sinners.

Why is it we don't follow in Paul's footsteps in this deployment of HONESTY?

It is because the EVIL CONSCIENCE of everyone who can't has turned them into religious LIARS.

Follow PAUL into the dark morass of your SWEET OLD SELF and you might learn somethings from him!

You will find by the example of HONEST PAUL, ample CAUSE to listen to Jesus in this regards:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Following Paul on the trail of honesty will lead you to know why you should hate your own self.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have absolutely no fear in knowing the Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly because I could not.
I have no fear in not judging my brothers and sisters in Christ for what they eat or drink, wear or don't wear, feasts that they keep or don't keep. In the Sabbath day that they meet together to worship God.
Paul calls it the law of liberty, in Christ.

Oh Deborah, I'm so disappointed in you. Are you suggesting that Christ's fulfillment of the law means you do not have to?

Why can't you acknowledge what Paul said that when YOU have faith in God and YOU love others as a result that YOU fulfill the law of Moses? Are you afraid that somehow makes the gospel of grace the gospel of works that Paul condemns? Don't be, because it doesn't.

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 And do this...
(Romans 13:8-11 NIV)

We are plainly commanded to love others and thus fulfill the law. Christ did not do that for us. It is the debt of the law that remains outstanding for the people of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you actually knew the covenant made with Moses, and you actually understood what the Law declares to you, then you would have known that the old covenant was temporary, until the everlasting covenant of Peace should be established. In this I have full confidence.

Isaiah 54:6-10
For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

I know the first covenant was temporary. What your doctrine fails to explain is how the first covenant can be laid aside yet the law still be fulfilled by faith in Christ. And because your doctrine can't explain it, it leaves the law of Moses unfulfilled in this New Covenant, and so your doctrine does exactly what Jesus said he did not come to do--destroy/abolish the law.

This misguided sidestepping of the fulfillment of the law of Moses by the believer because of faith in Christ is exactly the justification the church uses to teach that the faith that does nothing, being alone, is the faith that can justify and save you. This erroneous, ear tickling interpretation of Paul's and James' grace teaching has deceived many complacent, unchanged 'believers' into thinking they have a saving relationship with God, blind to the fact that it is the fulfilling of the law that confirms one's faith as the faith that can save them. Instead they take false comfort in the misguided teaching that says, 'Jesus kept the law for me. My faith doesn't have to do that. The requirements of the law were taken away at the cross. If I thought I had to have a faith that works to validate that faith as the faith that saves I would be guilty of trying to earn my own salvation'

 

[ezrider]

I know the first covenant was temporary. What your doctrine fails to explain is how the first covenant can be laid aside yet the law still be fulfilled by faith in Christ. And because your doctrine can't explain it, it leaves the law of Moses unfulfilled in this New Covenant, and so your doctrine does exactly what Jesus said he did not come to do--destroy/abolish the law.

This misguided removal of the fulfillment of the law of Moses through faith in Christ is exactly the justification the church uses to teach that the faith that does nothing, being alone, is the faith that can justify and save you. This erroneous, ear tickling interpretation of Paul's and James' grace teaching has deceived many complacent, unchanged 'believers' into thinking they have a saving relationship with God, blind to the fact that it is the fulfilling of the law that confirms one's faith as the faith that can save them. Instead they take false comfort in the misguided teaching that says, 'Jesus kept the law for me. My faith doesn't have to do that. The requirements of the law were taken away at the cross. If I thought I had to have a faith that works to validate that faith as the faith that saves I would be guilty of trying to earn my own salvation'

What have I left unfulfilled in the law of Moses according to the new Covenant? I have fulfilled the requirement of the law of Moses by confessing my guilt in all of it, and through Faith in Christ to accept my death in Him, that I might also know myself as risen in Him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What have I left unfulfilled in the law of Moses according to the new Covenant? I have fulfilled the requirement of the law of Moses by confessing my guilt in all of it, and through Faith in Christ to accept my death in Him, that I might also know myself as risen in Him.

Paul says this happened that you that you might now have the righteous requirement(s) of the law fulfilled in you when you walk according to the Spirit. IOW, sin was condemned in you so that you can then not walk in sin.

"...sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB)

But the church seems to avoid the 'walking according to the Spirit' part like the plague as if it were an alien, un-scriptural add-on to the gospel that somehow makes it the damnable works gospel Paul warned against, oblivious to the fact that faith in Christ upholds and fulfills the law, not nullifies it.

 

[JLB]

Oh Deborah, I'm so disappointed in you. Are you suggesting that Christ's fulfillment of the law means you do not have to?

Why can't you acknowledge what Paul said that when YOU have faith in God and YOU love others as a result that YOU fulfill the law of Moses? Are you afraid that somehow makes the gospel of grace the gospel of works that Paul condemns? Don't be, because it doesn't.

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 And do this...
(Romans 13:8-11 NIV)

We are plainly commanded to love others and thus fulfill the law. Christ did not do that for us. It is the debt of the law that remains outstanding for the people of God.

Yes we are called to love God, and to love our neighbor.

You somehow think that this concept somehow all began with the law of Moses.

No wonder, you also think that Gentiles were under the law of Moses, even before the law was added.

Love satisfies the intent That God had when he added the law.

Love still satisfies that intent long after the law has been made obsolete, been nailed to the cross and been taken out of the way.

God is love.

Under the New Testament where CHRIST is the Mediator, we are under the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes we are called to love God, and to love our neighbor.

You somehow think that this concept somehow all began with the law of Moses.

Why are you derailing the point? Paul plainly says when we love others we are fulfilling the law. And he even commands us to do that.

Now explain to me why Paul commands us to fulfill a law that you say was taken away at the cross, and which never applied to the gentiles in the first place anyway.

And also explain why it is that you say you were set free from a law at the cross that you were never under to begin with.

This is your doctrine:

"We have been set free from the bondage of the law that we were never under to begin with. And the law that Paul says we fulfill when we love others.....well....uh....I don't know why Paul tells us to fulfill a law by loving others that has been taken out of the way and which we were never under to begin with."​

 

[Deborah13]

Oh Deborah, I'm so disappointed in you. Are you suggesting that Christ's fulfillment of the law means you do not have to?

Why can't you acknowledge what Paul said that when YOU have faith in God and YOU love others as a result that YOU fulfill the law of Moses? Are you afraid that somehow makes the gospel of grace the gospel of works that Paul condemns? Don't be, because it doesn't.

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 And do this...
(Romans 13:8-11 NIV)

We are plainly commanded to love others and thus fulfill the law. Christ did not do that for us. It is the debt of the law that remains outstanding for the people of God.

I have stated this before and I will state it again.
When we love others as we love ourselves we will actually be literally fulfilling God's moral laws. We will not be doing the evils that Paul speaks of in Romans 1:29-32. These same things that Adam, Cain, Abel, Eve, Noah, Seth, Etc. knew where evil and therefore not loving others as themselves.
If there had never been a covenant called the Law of Moses would we still be condemned by God's Law? YES
Did people know that they sinned before the Law of Moses came? YES
Did God judge people for sin before the Law of Moses came? YES
Could people repent of sin and be forgiven before the Law of Moses came? YES
Were people saved by grace through faith before the Law of Moses came? YES
Were people saved by grace through faith during the 1500 yrs of the LoM? YES
Are we still saved by grace through faith? YES

Maybe you can tell me why God gave the Law of Moses to the people who would be the nation of Israel. What was the purpose and was the purpose accomplished? Why was it not an everlasting covenant?
Why was the covenant with Abraham and his One Seed an everlasting covenant?

 

[JLB]

Why are you derailing the point? Paul plainly says when we love others we are fulfilling the law. And he even commands us to do that.

Now explain to me why Paul commands us to fulfill a law that you say was taken away at the cross, and which never applied to the gentiles in the first place anyway.

And also explain why it is that you say you were set free from a law at the cross that you were never under to begin with.

This is your doctrine:

"We have been set free from the bondage of the law that we were never under to begin with. And the law that Paul says we fulfill when we love others.....well....uh....I don't know why Paul tells us to fulfill a law by loving others that has been taken out of the way and which we were never under to begin with."​

Yes when we love we are satisfying, or fulfilling the intent of the law.

This does not mean we are under the law of Moses.


Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

He has made the law obsolete, having nailed it to the cross and taken it out of the way.

The law of Moses was never a permanent part of the Abrahamic Covenant.

The law was added until the Seed should come.

Nothing shall pass from the law until it is fulfilled.

Christ fulfilled the law.


Any statements that Paul or anyone else makes are to be understood within the framework of the law of Moses being obsolete, nailed to the cross and taken out of the way.

We were never under the law of Moses, ever.

How much more so in Christ.


JLB