Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[Jethro Bodine]

The law has been fulfilled, and therefore He has made it obsolete, having nailed it to the cross, He has taken it out of the way.

Jesus did not take 'love your neighbor as yourself' out of the way, nor did he fulfill it for us. What Jesus did was fulfill the law in regard to sacrifice for sin, festival observance, death penalties, etc. We apply that fulfilling of the law to our account when we have faith in Christ's work on the cross. What remains to be fulfilled by us is the continuing debt to 'love your neighbor as yourself':

"8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8 NIV).

Christ did not do that for the believer on the cross. It remains the "righteousness requirement(s) of the law" that we fulfill when we live not "according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:4 NIV). We have to fulfill the law in that regard. Your doctrine does not acknowledge this. Instead it abolishes the Mosaic law 'love your neighbor as yourself' by removing it, leaving it unfulfilled in favor of another law of 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Your 'two law' doctrine abolishes what we are to fulfill regarding the law of Moses (through the power of the Holy Spirit) by replacing it with a different law. Jesus plainly said he did not come to do that. Paul plainly says faith in Christ expressed in love for others fulfills the law, not some different law.

 

[smaller]

Also, the law is not by faith. It cannot make a man righteous. It can only prove a man as weak in the flesh.

2 Corinthians 13:4
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Old testament laws were indeed fulfilled by Jesus Christ, however the prophesies that are in the Old Testament have not yet been fulfilled. That is why the end of the verse it plainly says "till all be fulfilled" The Old Testament laws no longer apply today, but we still have the Old Testament because it is not yet fulfilled. click HERE to see an article which shows Scriptures that prove we do not have to obey the Old Testament and its laws.

^i^

The problem with this is we know without a doubt that the fulfillment Jesus spoke about that must take place before anything in the law can 'disappear' has indeed occurred. How? By the simple fact that sacrifice for sin has 'disappeared' from the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Also, the law is not by faith. It cannot make a man righteous. It can only prove a man as weak in the flesh.

The WAY of the law to be justified is indeed completely contrary and opposed to the WAY of justification by faith in Christ. That is how the law is 'not of faith'. And this hardly means that faith then does not uphold and fulfill the law.

 

[DiscipleDave]

The problem with this is we know without a doubt that the fulfillment Jesus spoke about that must take place before anything in the law can 'disappear' has indeed occurred. How? By the simple fact that sacrifice for sin has 'disappeared' from the law.

You say "we know without a doubt that the fulfillment Jesus spoke about that must take place before anything in the law can 'disappear' has indeed occurred."

So when Jesus said till ALL be fulfilled, the ALL He was referring to was just that of the sacrifice for sin? The Old Testament will not be removed, or thrown away, even though the Bible refers to it as waxed old. UNTIL ALL be fulfilled. There is a ton of stuff in the Old Testament that has NOT yet come to pass, therefore is NOT yet fulfilled.

^i^

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You say "we know without a doubt that the fulfillment Jesus spoke about that must take place before anything in the law can 'disappear' has indeed occurred."

So when Jesus said till ALL be fulfilled, the ALL He was referring to was just that of the sacrifice for sin? The Old Testament will not be removed, or thrown away, even though the Bible refers to it as waxed old. UNTIL ALL be fulfilled. There is a ton of stuff in the Old Testament that has NOT yet come to pass, therefore is NOT yet fulfilled.

^i^

Some prophecies have yet to be fulfilled. There is no argument about this. What is clear is that whatever it was that Jesus said had to be fulfilled before so much as a jot or tittle would be allowed to disappear from the law has occurred. Again, how do we know this? Simple. We all agree that some things have disappeared from the law--among them, sacrifice for sin, the death penalty, etc. That which allowed that 'disappearing' had to have occurred. That is the point.

 

[smaller]

The problem with this is we know without a doubt that the fulfillment Jesus spoke about that must take place before anything in the law can 'disappear' has indeed occurred. How? By the simple fact that sacrifice for sin has 'disappeared' from the law.

There are many shadows, figures, similitudes, allegories and parables in the law. They are spiritually divided and meant to be understood. The O.T. sacrifices contain an immense amount of other showings, past, present, future.

It is hard for the carnal mind to understand how the burning flesh of bulls was a sweet savour unto God.

Lev. 1:
5 And he shall kill the bullock before the Lord: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.

These matters are filled with spiritual correlations, all still relevant. Everything in the O.T. is corollary Gospel information, given for understandings, per this and numerous other N.T. scriptures:

Hebrews 9:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Believers are, for example, also sacrifices to the Lord.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

We are to divide (in the figure of the beastly sacrifice of the O.T.) from flesh works and flesh slavery. We figurative HALVE ourselves in this manner. From the manners of the flesh beast unto the works of the Spirit.

We are also to correlate the burning to forthcoming JUDGMENTS.

There is so much more to see IN FIGURES other than the fleshly external sights.

God will and does teach in FIGURES, SHADOWS, SPIRITUAL CORRELATIONS.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Psalm 78:
1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

 

[JLB]

Jesus did not take 'love your neighbor as yourself' out of the way, nor did he fulfill it for us. What Jesus did was fulfill the law in regard to sacrifice for sin, festival observance, death penalties, etc. We apply that fulfilling of the law to our account when we have faith in Christ's work on the cross. What remains to be fulfilled by us is the continuing debt to 'love your neighbor as yourself':

"8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8 NIV).

Christ did not do that for the believer on the cross. It remains the "righteousness requirement(s) of the law" that we fulfill when we live not "according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:4 NIV). We have to fulfill the law in that regard. Your doctrine does not acknowledge this. Instead it abolishes the Mosaic law 'love your neighbor as yourself' by removing it, leaving it unfulfilled in favor of another law of 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Your 'two law' doctrine abolishes what we are to fulfill regarding the law of Moses (through the power of the Holy Spirit) by replacing it with a different law. Jesus plainly said he did not come to do that. Paul plainly says faith in Christ expressed in love for others fulfills the law, not some different law.

Was Abraham under the law of Moses?

No. That law was added 430 years later.


I don't use the word abolish, that's your word.

I'm a Gentile and am not under the law of Moses.



The Ten Commandments were around 430 years before the law of Moses was added.



Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.



JLB

 

[tinykitten]

What is the truth? Is the Law of God as revealed in the Old Testament done away with – obsolete and terminated – obliterated and nullified by God’s grace?
If so, then why did Jesus Christ declare, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law . . . I came not to destroy but to FULFILL” Matt.5:17, 18. He added, “For assuredly, I say to yoy, till haven and earth pass away, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (v.18). Are heaven and earth still around? If so, then the Law of God is still in existence, also!

You will need an Adobe Reader to open the below link. http://webhelper.centurylink.com/in...//www.adobe reader/&r=http://www.adobe.com/

http://www.triumphpro.com/law-and-the-covenants.pdf

I think one would first have to qualify what exactly is meant in the Matthew 5:17-18 scripture as pertains to the definition or meaning of, "everything". (not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.)

 

[TOG]

If God's covenants can be nullified, then how can we trust them?

The scripture makes it clear.

Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Hebrews 13:20

Let's go over this again to make sure I understand correctly. You said previously that the covenant that was made at Sinai had been annulled. I responded by asking, as quoted above, how we can trust God's covenants if they can be annulled. Now you respond by saying that we can trust the New Covenant because the Bible says it will last forever, and therefore we have a promise from God that it will never be annulled. That seems logical, but I have two problems with it.

1. The law was also said to last forever

Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. (Ex. 31:15-17 ESV)​

2. The law is not just a list of dos and don'ts.

It also contains many promises as well as a declaration from God himself that it will last forever. If it has been nullified, then those promises and that declaration are no longer valid, and if God's promises can become invalid, then we are back to square one and have no assurance that the New Covenant is still in effect.
​

You see, if you declare any one part of God's word to be nullified, then you end up not being able to trust any of it.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

The law has been fulfilled, and therefore He has made it obsolete, having nailed it to the cross, He has taken it out of the way.

Let's do a little comparison. I took a couple of screen shots of blueletterbible.org, since the format got messed up when I tried to copy and pasted it. Here's what Jesus said he wouldn't do to the law:

View attachment 5699

And here's what he said he did come to do:

View attachment 5700

And here's what you said he did:

Made it obsolete, taken it out of the way, nullified it.

It seems to me that your explanation doesn't fit with the actual definitions of what Jesus said.

The TOG​

 

[tinykitten]

OK, so lets consider the law is still in effect today. What does that mean for Christians in practice and faith?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't use the word abolish, that's your word.

When you claim that faith obeys and upholds and fulfills another law, not the law of Moses, that is the equivalent of abolishing the law of Moses, not merely setting it aside as an obsolete covenant.

In your doctrine, if the obedience of faith does not fulfill the law of Moses than your doctrine abolishes the law of Moses--the very thing Jesus said he did NOT come to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK, so lets consider the law is still in effect today. What does that mean for Christians in practice and faith?

In the law of Moses, keeping the royal law--'love your neighbor as yourself' (James 2:8 NASB)--is how we, practically speaking, keep and uphold and fulfill the law of Moses:

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. (Romans 13: NASB)


When we think and act in accordance with the fruit of the Spirit, no law stands against us. When we are walking in the fruit of the Spirit we are in compliance with the law and are not in violation of it:

"18 ...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the (condemnation of the) Law.
22 ...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. " (Galatians 5:18,22 NASB)

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
16 ...walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (the things condemned by the law). (Galatians 5:14,16 NASB)

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. (James 2:12 NASB)


God set us free from our sins in order that the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in us when we walk in the Spirit:

"He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB)

.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Saturday sabbath, feasts, kosher food and clothing, wearing tzitzit on four corners, etc. still stands?
Those things are not ceremonial they are a way of life, God said so.

Yep they do. But humanly speaking we often fail. The purpose of Christ was to redeem us from the curse of the Law. He forgives us 70 times 7 but we get up, dust ourselves off and continue on. But those standards still apply like Lewis said.

Let's not forget the spirit of the Law and what the ritual foreshadowed. Circumcision is an example. We have to distinguish ceremonial from moral. The former was oftentimes were prophetic foreshadows of Christ's work and don't need to be done because that was under the Law with the Levite's. The book of Hebrews clarifies a lot of that.

 

[JLB]

Let's do a little comparison. I took a couple of screen shots of blueletterbible.org, since the format got messed up when I tried to copy and pasted it. Here's what Jesus said he wouldn't do to the law:

View attachment 5699

And here's what he said he did come to do:

View attachment 5700

And here's what you said he did:

Made it obsolete, taken it out of the way, nullified it.

It seems to me that your explanation doesn't fit with the actual definitions of what Jesus said.

The TOG​

Wrong!

I did not say that.

You and Jethro seem to have the same "issue" as you both add things to what people say, the same way you add things to what the scripture says.


I didn't say nullified.

I said nailed to the cross.


He made it obsolete, taken out of the way, and nailed it to the cross.


In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14


When discussing a controversial subject, I use the exact phrases the scripture uses.


Example of Jethro adding to what the scripture says.

Why I quote what the scripture says in Galatians 3:19 -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19


Now Jethro doesn't like what that verse teaches, so he just "adds" his own words to this scripture, and says -

"the way the law of Moses was kept was added"...


You on the other hand, when asked a simple question, such as are Gentiles living in America under the law of Moses, you answer, not any scripture mind you, just your say we are to try and keep as much as we can, not the ones that are impossible to keep.

LOL!!! That is truly funny.


That's why the children of Israel have been redeemed from the law, because they couldn't keep it and desperately needed a Savior.


JLB

 

[JLB]

smaller said -

The Word of God, every jot and tittle, IS ALIVE AND ACTIVE.

Make sure you obey this one, when you see someone in your Church not obeying the Sabbath -


You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Exodus 31:14


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wrong!

I did not say that.

You and Jethro seem to have the same "issue" as you both add things to what people say, the same way you add things to what the scripture says.


I didn't say nullified.

I said nailed to the cross.


He made it obsolete, taken out of the way, and nailed it to the cross.


In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14


When discussing a controversial subject, I use the exact phrases the scripture uses.


Example of Jethro adding to what the scripture says.

Why I quote what the scripture says in Galatians 3:19 -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19


Now Jethro doesn't like what that verse teaches, so he just "adds" his own words to this scripture, and says -

"the way the law of Moses was kept was added"...


You on the other hand, when asked a simple question, such as are Gentiles living in America under the law of Moses, you answer, not any scripture mind you, just your say we are to try and keep as much as we can, not the ones that are impossible to keep.

LOL!!! That is truly funny.


That's why the children of Israel have been redeemed from the law, because they couldn't keep it and desperately needed a Savior.


JLB

A law that you do not keep, fulfill, or uphold in some way is a law that has been destroyed/abolished.

Your doctrine does that to the law of Moses. You say we have no obligation to uphold or fulfill it, but rather our faith upholds and fulfills another law.

 

[JLB]

In the law of Moses, keeping the royal law--'love your neighbor as yourself' (James 2:8 NASB)--is how we, practically speaking, keep and uphold and fulfill the law of Moses:

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. (Romans 13: NASB)


When we think and act in accordance with the fruit of the Spirit, no law stands against us. When we are walking in the fruit of the Spirit we are in compliance with the law and are not in violation of it:

"18 ...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the (condemnation of the) Law.
22 ...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. " (Galatians 5:18,22 NASB)

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
16 ...walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (the things condemned by the law). (Galatians 5:14,16 NASB)

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. (James 2:12 NASB)


God set us free from our sins in order that the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in us when we walk in the Spirit:

"He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB)

.

Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, that is why it's called the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2


The law of Moses was added, until the Seed should come. That Seed is Christ.

Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, not Moses.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

The Levitical Priesthood does not administrate the law of the New Covenant, It is administrated by Jesus after the order of Melchizedek.


The law of Moses is not in force today, the law of Christ under the New Testament is.

The law of Moses has been made Obsolete by God Himself, having nailed it to the cross he has taken it out of the way.

The laws and commandments of God that Abraham obeying 430 years before the law of Moses was added, and were seen in the law of Moses are eternal and are still applicable today in the New Covenant, being God's Kingdom laws and commandments.


Love God and Love your neighbor have always been God's laws since the beginning and did not originate with Moses.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's why the children of Israel have been redeemed from the law, because they couldn't keep it and desperately needed a Savior.

The whole world is under, and has to be redeemed from the curse--the condemnation--of the law.

"19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God" (Romans 3:19 NASB)


And Paul says we are set free from the curse and condemnation of the law so that we can then uphold it's righteous requirement:

"He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us..." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB)


But you say 1) we aren't even under the the law to begin with (that's for the Jews only), and 2) we aren't saved from the condemnation of the law (which you said was only for the Jews?) to then 'keep' the righteous requirement(s) of the law, but to keep a different law. Your doctrine not only doesn't make sense, it directly contradicts scripture.