Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[TOG]

This is the verse that tells me it is wrong to steal, it was given in the garden.
Gen 3:19 by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou art , and unto dust thou turnest back.'

We are to work for what we have. If we take what another person has worked for we are stealing his bread rather than earning our own.

That is an absolutely reasonable understanding of that verse, but it's not exactly a commandment. I believe that the commandment not to steal as well as a commandment against murder and instructions on how to offer proper sacrifices had already been given either before or immediately after Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, but that they just weren't written down (or at least, we don't have them in written form today). But that is just my interpretation and my belief. I cannot claim with absolute certainty, as JLB does, that these commandments existed prior to the time they were actually given and have survived in writing.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of sin and death is what Adam violated and subjected the whole world to.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14


The law of sin and death is what is in our members that every man inherited from Adam.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22-23

I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


The law of Christ, or the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ has made me free from, not from the obsolete law of Moses, but the law of sin and death.


The law of sin and death is what the whole world is under.

The soul that sins shall die!


JLB

It plainly says that 'the law' is what makes the WHOLE WORLD accountable to God:

"19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God" (Romans 3:19 NASB)

And remember, you're the one who says you, a gentile, were released from the law by it being nailed to the cross, in spite of your insistence that the above verse is not speaking to you being condemned by the law of Moses because you're not 'under it'. Very contradictory doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've noticed that. But I've been guilty of that in the past myself. I have sometimes refused to listen when something contradicts my beliefs. But when God has wanted to get something across to me, He hasn't given up. Through friends, forums, Internet sites, videos and other methods, I've kept hearing the same message again and again until it finally broke through. Maybe JLB will eventually check these things out and change his views.

The TOG​

I used to toe the line against the law for the Protestant Church to a similar degree that is being done here in this thread. But I had to be honest with myself and see that so many arguments of the Messianic Church were irrefutable and legit.

I found the problem all comes down to the church's misunderstanding of Paul's grace/works teaching. Somehow the church changed it into a teaching that says all things 'law' are damnable and opposed to grace. Hardly true, of course. We see that it is misusing the law for the purpose of justification that is condemned in scripture. And not every use of the law equates to a trying to be justified by the law.

 

[Deborah13]

Who walk according to what, Deborah?

The requirement(s) of the law do not get fulfilled in a person unless they walk according to what?

What does the passage say?

In Christ. We are in Christ and He is in us. We walk in Him.
If we are not in Him we are not walking, we are dead. Christ said let the dead bury the dead.
So Paul has a couple different ways he refers to this. The law that is written on our hearts. The law of Christ, the law of the Spirit. The conscience.
Why are ALL men held accountable for what they do that is against God's moral judgements?
Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them,
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable;
Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practising such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practicing them.

All those things that Paul lists are some of the things that God instilled in the heart (conscience) of man from Adam onward, leaving man without excuse. Paul, says that man knows all these things, he chooses at some point to ignore what God is saying to his heart and goes his own way.
What tree did they eat from in the garden? The KNOWLEDGE of BOTH good and evil.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In Christ. We are in Christ and He is in us. We walk in Him.
If we are not in Him we are not walking, we are dead. Christ said let the dead bury the dead.
So Paul has a couple different ways he refers to this. The law that is written on our hearts. The law of Christ, the law of the Spirit. The conscience.
Why are ALL men held accountable for what they do that is against God's moral judgements?
Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them,
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable;
Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practising such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practicing them.

All those things that Paul lists are some of the things that God instilled in the heart (conscience) of man from Adam onward, leaving man without excuse. Paul, says that man knows all these things, he chooses at some point to ignore what God is saying to his heart and goes his own way.
What tree did they eat from in the garden? The KNOWLEDGE of BOTH good and evil.

Cut to the chase. Does obedience to 'do not steal' and similar laws nullify or uphold and fulfill the law of Moses, or not? What does Paul say? What does the church say?

If Paul says our obedience to 'do no harm', thus loving others, fulfills the law of Moses, why does the church say it is NOT the law of Moses that gets fulfilled and upheld by the obedience of faith, instead insisting that it 'went away' in it's entirety in favor of some other law?

Of course, it's this misguided fear that to acknowledge fulfillment of the law in this New Covenant is somehow contradictory to the gospel of grace. The problem is the church does not understand Paul's grace/law teaching, not that the law of Moses gets fulfilled, not nullified, by faith in this New Covenant.

 

[TOG]

I used to toe the line against the law for the Protestant Church to a similar degree that is being done here in this thread. But I had to be honest with myself and see that so many arguments of the Messianic Church were irrefutable and legit.

I found the problem all comes down to the church's misunderstanding of Paul's grace/works teaching. Somehow the church changed it into a teaching that says all things 'law' are damnable and opposed to grace. Hardly true, of course. We see that it is misusing the law for the purpose of justification that is condemned in scripture. And not every use of the law equates to a trying to be justified by the law.

The law was never meant for the purpose of justification, and that is why that use is condemned. When used properly, the law is holy righteous and good, as Paul says in Romans 7.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law was never meant for the purpose of justification, and that is why that use is condemned. When used properly, the law is holy righteous and good, as Paul says in Romans 7.

The TOG​

(Where's that blasted 'like' button, lol!)

Yes, Paul points out that it is the Israelites who misunderstood the law as a means to justification:

"...the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works." (Romans 9:30-32 NIV)

 

[Deborah13]

That is an absolutely reasonable understanding of that verse, but it's not exactly a commandment. I believe that the commandment not to steal as well as a commandment against murder and instructions on how to offer proper sacrifices had already been given either before or immediately after Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, but that they just weren't written down (or at least, we don't have them in written form today). But that is just my interpretation and my belief. I cannot claim with absolute certainty, as JLB does, that these commandments existed prior to the time they were actually given and have survived in writing.

The TOG​

I believe what Paul says in Romans 1.
Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practicing such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practicing them.
I believe when God breaths the ruach into us we know these things. We have to choose to ignore them. We have to choose death rather than life.

 

[Deborah13]

The law was never meant for the purpose of justification, and that is why that use is condemned. When used properly, the law is holy righteous and good, as Paul says in Romans 7.

The TOG​

True.

 

[smaller]

The law was never meant for the purpose of justification, and that is why that use is condemned. When used properly, the law is holy righteous and good, as Paul says in Romans 7.

The TOG​

And Paul also directs us to the reality that the Word is as you observe, Holy, Righteous, Spiritual and good if used properly. The problem was never with the Word, but with the people.

The Perfect Law can be held up, but it will remain to be followed by imperfect people. The problem wasn't with the Law/The Word, but with the people.

There is no form of law following/keeping or even loving ones neighbors that will lead to a conclusion that we are NOT sinners. And that's kind of the general issue, isn't it?

Those who submit to the law in any form should also honestly submit to it's factual conclusions. And when they do, they will see the futility of claiming to be legally obedient sinners.

 

[TOG]

I believe what Paul says in Romans 1.
Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practicing such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practicing them.
I believe when God breaths the ruach into us we know these things. We have to choose to ignore them. We have to choose death rather than life.

I agree. Whether we reject God or follow Him, we have to choose the way we go. We can choose life and follow God or we can reject Him and choose death.

The TOG​

 

[smaller]

I believe what Paul says in Romans 1.
Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practicing such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practicing them.
I believe when God breaths the ruach into us we know these things. We have to choose to ignore them. We have to choose death rather than life.

Indeed. And lets also consider our own state prior to belief:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 

[TOG]

(Where's that blasted 'like' button, lol!)

Yes, Paul points out that it is the Israelites who misunderstood the law as a means to justification:

"...the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works." (Romans 9:30-32 NIV)

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

The law was never meant for the purpose of justification, and that is why that use is condemned. When used properly, the law is holy righteous and good, as Paul says in Romans 7.

The TOG​

Here's what Paul says about the law of Moses.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:23-25

After faith has come we are NO LONGER under the law.

We are not declared righteous by the works of the law.

We are not justified by the law.

We are not given life by the law.

Our sins are not taken away by the law.

We are no longer under the law, but under grace.




JLB

 

[TOG]

Here's what Paul says about the law of Moses.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:23-25

After faith has come we are NO LONGER under the law.

We are not declared righteous by the works of the law.

We are not justified by the law.

We are not given life by the law.

Our sins are not taken away by the law.

We are no longer under the law, but under grace.




JLB

When I was a child, I had a first grade teacher, who taught me how to add and subtract, among other things. Now that I am an adult, I no longer need a first grade teacher. That doesn't mean I never needed one. And even though I no longer need a first grade teacher, that doesn't mean I have rejected what that teacher taught me. I still read, write, add, subtract and do other things she taught me. And just because Paul says he no longer needed the law as a teacher, that doesn't mean he rejected what the law taught him.

Have you ever been under guard by the law? Has it ever been your tutor? If not, then your quoting that verse is like a grown man who has never been to school and hasn't learned to read, write, add or subtract quoting what I just said and saying "Now that I am an adult, I no longer need a first grade teacher". The very words "no longer" imply that you did need the law and did have it as a tutor. Did you?

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

(Where's that blasted 'like' button, lol!)

Yes, Paul points out that it is the Israelites who misunderstood the law as a means to justification:

"...the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works." (Romans 9:30-32 NIV)

Abraham demonstrated how to walk in righteousness before God by obeying His Voice because he walked with God.
Abraham had no written scriptures.


Your doctrine requires Christians to have the scriptures and study the law of Moses in order to be right with God.

He has written His law on our hearts.



JLB

 

[TOG]

We are not declared righteous by the works of the law.

We are not justified by the law.

We are not given life by the law.

Our sins are not taken away by the law.

I never claimed any of those things. In fact, I haven't seen anyone here claim any of those things. You are just tilting at windmills.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

When I was a child, I had a first grade teacher, who taught me how to add and subtract, among other things. Now that I am an adult, I no longer need a first grade teacher. That doesn't mean I never needed one. And even though I no longer need a first grade teacher, that doesn't mean I have rejected what that teacher taught me. I still read, write, add, subtract and do other things she taught me. And just because Paul says he no longer needed the law as a teacher, that doesn't mean he rejected what the law taught him.

Have you ever been under guard by the law? Has it ever been your tutor? If not, then your quoting that verse is like a grown man who has never been to school and hasn't learned to read, write, add or subtract quoting what I just said and saying "Now that I am an adult, I no longer need a first grade teacher". The very words "no longer" imply that you did need the law and did have it as a tutor. Did you?

The TOG​

If you have been to school then I know you can read what the plain words say.

We (Jews) are no longer under the law.

For you are not under the law but under Grace.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I never claimed any of those things. In fact, I haven't seen anyone here claim any of those things. You are just tilting at windmills.

The TOG​

Those are statements from scripture.

You can call what the scripture states whatever you like.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

As TOG points out, if God abolished the old covenant, as JLB's doctrine does whether he realizes it or not, what confidence should we take that ANY covenant he makes will not one day be abolished?.

If you actually knew the covenant made with Moses, and you actually understood what the Law declares to you, then you would have known that the old covenant was temporary, until the everlasting covenant of Peace should be established. In this I have full confidence.

Isaiah 54:6-10
For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.