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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18
- Thread starter WalterandDebbie
- Start date
tinykitten
Member
I think context has a lot of merit when avowing a blanket proposal that we can love others as we love ourselves.
If it is a matter of relativity what then of the masochist? In degrees of self-love, which can be said to be a characteristic of vanity,what of the one who is committed to self-deprecation? Does one love their rapist? The serial killer that tallied their mother as one in a long line of victims?
Jesus was perfect. Our very God given sin nature guarantees we can never truly be Christ like. And in truth the old testament, and recalling Jesus was God indwelling in the flesh, God did not love his enemies. He did not love others as he loved himself. God sent the Hebrews to slaughter his enemies in his name.
When Jesus is the same yesterday, as God of the OT, today and forever, I think we have to put into perspective what it means to then be Christ like.
Maybe we need to give ourselves a break and realize we're first and foremost as God made us to be. And he knew us before the womb, having predestined our lives according to his will, and for his pleasure and glory.
We are forgiven for being human. That should tell us we're obligated to do the best we can with what God gave us to work with. When God didn't love his enemies, I don't fault my Christian co-worker for not loving the pedophile that raped her son.
If it is a matter of relativity what then of the masochist? In degrees of self-love, which can be said to be a characteristic of vanity,what of the one who is committed to self-deprecation? Does one love their rapist? The serial killer that tallied their mother as one in a long line of victims?
Jesus was perfect. Our very God given sin nature guarantees we can never truly be Christ like. And in truth the old testament, and recalling Jesus was God indwelling in the flesh, God did not love his enemies. He did not love others as he loved himself. God sent the Hebrews to slaughter his enemies in his name.
When Jesus is the same yesterday, as God of the OT, today and forever, I think we have to put into perspective what it means to then be Christ like.
Maybe we need to give ourselves a break and realize we're first and foremost as God made us to be. And he knew us before the womb, having predestined our lives according to his will, and for his pleasure and glory.
We are forgiven for being human. That should tell us we're obligated to do the best we can with what God gave us to work with. When God didn't love his enemies, I don't fault my Christian co-worker for not loving the pedophile that raped her son.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Are you afraid to say what the Bible says, that faith acted out in love for others fulfills the law of Moses? I know why you are afraid to come right out and say it. You have been indoctrinated by a misguided and uneducated church that thinks that not being under the law of Moses means we don't have to keep it's righteous requirements anymore, because to dare say that faith upholds or fulfills the law of Moses is nothing short of saying we are saved by our works. I understand your fear. I'm a part of that same misguided uneducated church and have been exposed to this same bunk, too.
Deborah, you're rambling. This does not answer the questions I asked you. Here they are again:
Are you suggesting that Christ's fulfillment of the law means your faith does not have to fulfill it?
Why can't you acknowledge what Paul said that when YOU have faith in God and YOU love others as a result that YOU fulfill the law of Moses? Are you afraid that somehow makes the gospel of grace the gospel of works that Paul condemns?
Why can't you acknowledge what Paul said that when YOU have faith in God and YOU love others as a result that YOU fulfill the law of Moses? Are you afraid that somehow makes the gospel of grace the gospel of works that Paul condemns?
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Jethro Bodine
Member
The error that you are making is thinking that not being under the law of Moses means it does not get satisfied by faith in this New Covenant. You're busy getting rid of it--in effect abolishing it--and refusing to acknowledge the plain truth in our NT's that faith in Christ upholds and fulfills the law of Moses not sets it aside at the cross. What got set aside as unneeded and replaced by the New Covenant of faith in Christ was the literal first covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. Not the righteous requirements of the law of Moses. PAUL PLAINLY SAID THOSE ARE UPHELD AND FULFILLED BY FAITH, not set aside by faith.
You're not answering my questions.
Why does faith in Christ fulfill the law of Moses if it was, as you say, taken out of the way at the cross and a law we were never under to begin with?
I can only conclude that you are not answering my question because you realize that it's impossible for the law of Moses to be taken out of the way for the believer and in effect nullified in favor of another law if Paul says faith doesn't nullify it but rather upholds and fulfills it. Made all the more impossible by your insistence that we were never under the law of Moses to begin with!
Your doctrine will continue to make no sense, and will continue to effectively abolish the law of Moses (which Jesus said he did not come to do) until you acknowledge what you can plainly see with your own eyes in the NT that faith in Christ upholds and fulfills the law of Moses when we walk in obedience in that faith.
Not being under the law of Moses does NOT mean we don't have to uphold or fulfill it anymore. You are in error concerning the law of Moses. Faith does in fact uphold and fulfill the law of Moses, not take it out of the way. What faith does lay aside as unneeded now is the old covenant of literal temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. That hardly means faith does not uphold and fulfill the law of Moses.
Faith upholds the law the same exact way a pound of gold upholds a pound of confederate currency on a scale.
That is the meaning and use of the word in Romans 3:31.
upholds is a word used to describe a weight of measure.
Unfortunately for your doctrine the gold, which represents faith has great value to God and pleases God.
Confederate currency, like the law is obsolete.
The law is not of faith.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
JLB
stovebolts
Member
Hi JLB,
I would ask that you pause for a moment and think about another way to interpret what you have just posted.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
I was reading your commentary on this verse earlier in the thread and became very excited when I read:
To mis-interpret the Law was said to "destroy" the Law.
To correctly interpret the Law was said to "fulfill" the Law.
You see JLB, very few people understand that and most who hear that answer answer reject it. You and I are in agreement
What if we looked at the words of Jesus with the lens you've just proposed?
Topic: You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
Verse: Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
The interpretation (You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy) comes from certain commentaries found within the Dead Sea Scrolls and has it's roots grounded in Leviticus 19:18. In addition, according to the study notes within my Bible, it says, "The stricter Pharisees (School of Shammai) added to this command what they thought it implied:"
We know that there were two main schools of thought in the days of Jesus.
1. School of Shammai
2. School of Hillel.
Jesus always sided with the School of Hillel on every point with the exception of divorce where he sides with the School of Shammai.
In short, we have an interpretation by the School of Shammai of Leviticus 19:18 that reads, "Love your neighbor and hate your enemy".
Thus, according to Jesus, the School of Shammai has "Destroyed the Law".
Jesus will now "fullfill" the Law, thus giving us the correct interpretation.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
How does Jesus come to this conclusion? Simple, it comes later in verses 33 and 34.
Leviticus 19:33-34 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Thus, Jesus has "Fulfilled the Law" AKA, given a correct interpretation.
If we need added scripture, you may recall a teacher of the Law wanting to justify himself, and he does so by saying, "Who is my neighbor".
In short, we don't need to parse the verse "Law of Moses" and "Law of Jesus". Jesus is fulfilling the "Law" by giving it's correct interpretation. It's really that simple.
stovebolts
Member
In Essence JLB , the pattern is:
You have heard it said... (Law destroyed) aka bad interpretation.
But I say... (Law fulfilled) aka perfect interpretation.
It's a good exercise in your OT to study each and every law that Jesus confronts as being "destroyed" and how he "Fulfills" them. My Ramban commentary pulls heavily from Hillel's line of thought through Leviticus, so when I went to study Matthew 5-7 I was really able to see how they viewed the Torah.
You have heard it said... (Law destroyed) aka bad interpretation.
But I say... (Law fulfilled) aka perfect interpretation.
It's a good exercise in your OT to study each and every law that Jesus confronts as being "destroyed" and how he "Fulfills" them. My Ramban commentary pulls heavily from Hillel's line of thought through Leviticus, so when I went to study Matthew 5-7 I was really able to see how they viewed the Torah.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The problem is this addresses nothing concerning what I've been grilling his doctrine about.
He can't explain why Paul commands us to love others and thus fulfill the law if any and all obligation to the law was, as he says, taken out of the way at the cross (effectively nullified and abolished for us), or why that even matters since he is certain we were never under the law of Moses to begin with.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm guessing "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." was probably derived from this:
""Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD and so bring wrath on yourself from the LORD?" (2 Chronicles 19:2 NASB)
stovebolts
Member
No, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy was derived from Leviticus 19:18. This teaching is affirmed from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the School of Shammia.
We don't need to guess where the teaching came from because we already know. I would add that the School of Shammai was a contemporary in the days of Jesus.
If I could add, the "Law" is considered the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy). This is bedrock for the Jews and the Prophets were there to remind the Jewish nation of this.
smaller
Member
It's a common mistake, to see that the law was wiped out. The law as it pertains to JLB's rightful sights, that the law is not of faith and that the law was nailed to the cross did not encompass ALL the law, but only to these matters in particular, from Col. 2: "14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
Faith also advises this from the same Col. 2:
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
The strays on the subjects of law miss the fact that the law remains against lawlessness and the internal wickedness that invokes 'works of the flesh', which still exists in everyone. Even more, that law still arouses and brings lawlessness to the surface in ALL in the form of internal adverse thoughts, words and deeds. This is the ground where we find our own respective accounting of DEATH to 'works of the flesh.' Adverse LAW activity we can readily still observe in the world. Laws in general still work to empower lawlessness in the people and give the people over to control by higher powers who write, control and enforce those laws. The law is still used today to make slaves of the masses unto higher powers. There is a deep spiritual lesson to observe on this count. And yes, it's all by the directive of God. The world itself is still quite wrapped up in law and lawlessness and the problems are EXPONENTIALLY ESCALATING if you haven't noticed.
The law itself can not insert spiritual things in any person. Yet we also know that the law IS spiritual. Those aspects of the law remain, as those things are NOT against us.
Gal.5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Believers can certainly CLAIM that the law which is and remains factually against lawlessness has been taken away, BUT all they have to do is turn to Paul's writings TO BELIEVERS to find that Paul was also against wicked works of the flesh, identical in nature to the O.T. LAW.
There will remain a Divine Accounting for sin and for every wicked work in whomever such works are found, and they are found in all.
We carry our respective sins to our respective crosses.
stovebolts
Member
It addresses everything... but I don't think anyone can take a step back far enough to see it.
It's pretty simple. The covenant at Sinai never made it past the reception (golden calf) and it was full of a smoking mountain, lightning and God's voice which made the people so fearful, they couldn't approach God and needed Moses. The new covenant (Jer 31:31) is written on our hearts.
Jesus still wants us to obey the commandments... We must love our neighbor as ourselves. And it comes from our heart, not obligation and not out of fear.
stovebolts
Member
smaller,
Gal.5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Correct. No law goes against such thing just as there is no law against this command:
Deuteronomy 6:5-6 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart
Gal.5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Correct. No law goes against such thing just as there is no law against this command:
Deuteronomy 6:5-6 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart
Jethro Bodine
Member
JLB says we obey another set of commandments, not the law of Moses. Which nullifies the law of Moses, which Paul said faith in Christ does not do.
stovebolts
Member
And I hope I have addressed that for him.
The shift comes in the form that we naturally do what's stated in the law... because it's in our hearts.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I think the point Paul is making is there is not condemnation of law against walking in the Spirit. Obviously there is if you walk in the deeds of the flesh. IOW, no law stands against you in condemnation when you walk according to the Spirit. He said basically the same thing here:
"He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB)
He's not saying the law goes away for those who are in the Spirit. He said that gets fulfilled, not cast away, when we walk according to the Spirit. What goes away is the condemnation of the law.
In fact, he even commands us to love others and thus fulfill the law, not cast it aside:
"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore loveis the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this" (Romans 13:8-11 NASB)
But the church in general has us utterly removed from the law, in effect nullifying it, in an obvious misunderstanding of what it means for the first covenant to have been laid aside.
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smaller
Member
The law will show us every single time, when we put ourselves under it, that the internal wickedness that we all carry in the form of indwelling sin is still within and still in resistance to the LAW.
That is partly why we don't put ourselves 'under it' as the power of lawlessness remains within and is against the LAW, to rear it's ugly head.
Ultimately we have to turn to the underlying powers that work in adversarial manner to understand the purposes of the law and WHO it is against.
It's not just about MAN. I've written of this many many times, but because of the factual power of blinding and resistance within believers can't see it.
Satan and his minions ARE moved by Divine Decree to RESIST the Law. They are the internal problems of all mankind.
It really is our obligation to hold UP and establish the law, not to make people obey, but ultimately to bring the real culprits to ultimate adverse judgments. It's somewhat of a strange reverse principle that God has set in place. If we are moved to the end, the wicked powers will be surfaced to face DIVINE JUDGMENT. That is the end game. God set a goal in the direction that we don't want to look. That judgment begins in our own house, our own temple. It is we who will be brought to bear the first barrage, and it will also be WE who are divided against and away from that internal working:
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Jethro Bodine
Member
I think you're missing the important point. He says we don't fulfill the law of Moses, we fulfill another law. But Paul said faith does not nullify the law of Moses, but fulfills it.
stovebolts
Member
Good points my good brother smaller
I like the way Paul puts it too!
Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gotta run... taking the kids to the mall
I like the way Paul puts it too!
Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gotta run... taking the kids to the mall