Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[Jethro Bodine]

No, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy was derived from Leviticus 19:18. This teaching is affirmed from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the School of Shammia.
We don't need to guess where the teaching came from because we already know. I would add that the School of Shammai was a contemporary in the days of Jesus.
If I could add, the "Law" is considered the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy). This is bedrock for the Jews and the Prophets were there to remind the Jewish nation of this.

Hmm...pretty hard to accept they did not get their teaching from 2 Chronicles 19:2 since the scriptures say to hate the enemies of God. How is it possible that verse would escape the Jews that they would not base the exact same teaching on it?

This is why I rarely read extra-Biblical sources of information. They are unreliable, being so contrary to what we can read for ourselves right in the pages of our Bibles.

 

[smaller]

I think you're missing the important point. He says we don't fulfill the law of Moses, we fulfill another law. But Paul said faith does not nullify the law of Moses, but fulfills it.

I have to agree with you on that count. Paul in Romans 13 transcribed or placed every command in the scriptures to ONE LAW. That encompasses every command therein inclusive of the Law of Moses and any other command contained in the scriptures.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

There is also another reality set to observe for us all here, in the same chapter, Romans 13:

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

ALL of us know for no uncertain fact that we have works of darkness to CAST OFF. We are just not HONEST about having such. We are even LESS honest to source that problem.

The LIGHT ARMOUR however does bring everything into the LIGHT of exposure. When we are dishonest we are not bringing forth our own WORKS OF DARKNESS to cast off, but are led to cover and to hide no different than Adam and Eve hiding their sin away from God as blinded children controlled by the carnal flesh nature.

We try by that hiding to squeeze the entirety of ourselves through the Door of Heaven.

But the works of darkness will NOT be let in. They must be cast off by LIGHT EXPOSURE. We can all chime in about how we are forgiven and how God in Christ doesn't count sins against us and all the good things. But we all remain quite entirely reluctant to just be honest about having such works of darkness.

We're not fooling anyone, least of all God in Christ.

 

[TOG]

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' - law of Moses

No, that isn't the law of Moses. That's the rabbis' interpretation of the law. Note that Jesus didn't say "it is written", but "you have heard that it was said". Who said it? Not God and not Moses. The rabbis said it, and it was their interpretation of the law that Jesus was objecting to, both here and in many other places throughout the Gospels where he confronts the Pharisees concerning their traditions and doctrines. That's what that whole section is about in Matthew 5 - not the law, but the rabbis' misinterpretation of the law. Jesus was showing us the correct way to understand it.

The TOG​

 

[stovebolts]

Hmm...pretty hard to accept they did not get their teaching from 2 Chronicles 19:2 since the scriptures say to hate the enemies of God. How is it possible that verse would escape the Jews that they would not base the exact same teaching on it?

This is why I rarely read extra-Biblical sources of information. They are unreliable, being so contrary to what we can read for ourselves right in the pages of our Bibles.

Hi Jethro,

I think I understand how you're coming to the conclusion your coming to, and I think that you're making a common mistake that many make.

The first thing you need to realize, is that the Law was given at Mt. Sinai and Chronicles is, in part, a history how that Law (Covenant) was lived out.

Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Everything in Jewish life gets filtered through Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).

From a historical lens, it cannot be refuted that some of the teachers of the law in the days of Jesus were interpreting Leviticus 19:18 as hating their enemies. If you choose not to consider this, it doesn't make it any less true.

Now then, let us look at 2 Chronicles 19:2 (Jewish translation) And Jehu the son of Hanani, the seer, came out before him, and said to King Jehoshaphat, "[Did you go] to aid the wicked, and do you love those who hate the Lord? Now because of this there is wrath upon you from before the Lord.

First, the text is not a command to hate the enemies of God. Rather, it is an account of an incident.
Question: Who do you think the text is referring to as the "Wicked" and "those who hate the Lord"?

Nowhere in scripture does it tell us to partner with the enemy in opposition to the Lord. To interpret the above passage any other way is to take the passage out of it's historical setting and the events that are clearly recorded within scripture to describe such events.

 

[stovebolts]

No, that isn't the law of Moses. That's the rabbis' interpretation of the law. Note that Jesus didn't say "it is written", but "you have heard that it was said". Who said it? Not God and not Moses. The rabbis said it, and it was their interpretation of the law that Jesus was objecting to, both here and in many other places throughout the Gospels where he confronts the Pharisees concerning their traditions and doctrines. That's what that whole section is about in Matthew 5 - not the law, but the rabbis' misinterpretation of the law. Jesus was showing us the correct way to understand it.

The TOG​

Amen. Such a simple truth. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand this.
Do you think it is because they don't take the time to understand the OT laws and how they were intended to be lived out?

 

[TOG]

Amen. Such a simple truth. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand this.
Do you think it is because they don't take the time to understand the OT laws and how they were intended to be lived out?

I'm pretty sure that's it. I know a man who has been saved for about 35 years. He told me a couple of years ago that he was then reading the Books of Moses (the law) for the first time. It's not wonder people don't understand the law when they can go for many decades without ever reading what it says. There are probably Christians who never read it. Studying the law has given me a new and deeper understanding, not only of the law itself and what it is for, but also of many things in the New Testament.

The TOG​

 

[smaller]

"Depending on which scholar's work you examine, the number of quotations and references in the New Testament to the Old may be as high as 4,105 (Roger Nicole, The Expositor's Bible Commentary , Zondervan, Grand Rapids, 1979, Vol. I, p. 617)."

 

[stovebolts]

I'm pretty sure that's it. I know a man who has been saved for about 35 years. He told me a couple of years ago that he was then reading the Books of Moses (the law) for the first time. It's not wonder people don't understand the law when they can go for many decades without ever reading what it says. There are probably Christians who never read it. Studying the law has given me a new and deeper understanding, not only of the law itself and what it is for, but also of many things in the New Testament.

The TOG​

Me too.
Years ago somebody was saying something about a New Exodus theology and pointed at Exodus really being the starting point of the story. So, I got a RAMBAN commentary and spent the next 13 months teaching Exodus in our adult auditorium. It was very enlightening and unless you study it with a Jewish perspective as part of your study, you'll never catch the nuances.

For example: 2 Chronicles 18:8 And the king of Israel summoned one eunuch, and said, "Bring Micaiah the son of Imla at once."
Here is the commentary: Bring Micaiah at once: [Micaiah] is written with the “yud” missing. He called him by a different name, Micahu, in order to degrade him.
You'll never find that in any non-jewish commentary because non of them are reading the original language let alone their nuances.

 

[ezrider]

Amen. Such a simple truth. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand this.
Do you think it is because they don't take the time to understand the OT laws and how they were intended to be lived out?

No, it is all about perception and the way we choose receive the Word of God for ourselves. We can choose to hear the word of God and think of ourselves as a judge deciding what is right and wrong; Or we can choose to hear the word of God and know ourselves as already judged in Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

"Depending on which scholar's work you examine, the number of quotations and references in the New Testament to the Old may be as high as 4,105 (Roger Nicole, The Expositor's Bible Commentary , Zondervan, Grand Rapids, 1979, Vol. I, p. 617)."

Wow! I would have never imagined! I know after my study in Exodus, I saw so many links within the NT that most don't even have an idea.

 

[stovebolts]

No, it is all about perception and the way we choose receive the Word of God for ourselves. We can choose to hear the word of God and think of ourselves as a judge deciding what is right and wrong; Or we can choose to hear the word of God and know ourselves as already judged in Christ.

Can you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I'm fully understanding what your saying. I think I understand, but I'm not sure.
Thanks!

 

[Jesse]

I'm pretty sure that's it. I know a man who has been saved for about 35 years. He told me a couple of years ago that he was then reading the Books of Moses (the law) for the first time. It's not wonder people don't understand the law when they can go for many decades without ever reading what it says. There are probably Christians who never read it. Studying the law has given me a new and deeper understanding, not only of the law itself and what it is for, but also of many things in the New Testament.

The TOG​

I learned that a person should not witness, unless we also bring up the topic of the Law. If you think about it, it makes complete sense, we're otherwise only telling 1/2 a story.

 

[jasonc]

Wow! I would have never imagined! I know after my study in Exodus, I saw so many links within the NT that most don't even have an idea.

one person said to me over the phone that Shemot was linked to Matthew.

 

[stovebolts]

jasonc
Ahh, Shemot... The book of names.. These are the names of the children of Israel, who came into Egypt.
And what does Egypt represent? Yes, Exile. And what is the significance of a name? It's part of your very soul. Though we all experience exile, our name will always remains within us.

 

[smaller]

Wow! I would have never imagined! I know after my study in Exodus, I saw so many links within the NT that most don't even have an idea.

The amplified Bible has excellent footnote O.T. cross references of many matters in the N.T. that are correlated to the O.T. And even these are quite incomplete.

For example, Paul teachings of the raising of Pharoah in the spiritual senses as noted in Romans 9 are NOT referenced to the O.T. facts of Ezekiel 29 where the REAL Pharaoh in the spiritual senses is revealed and from whence Paul obtained that portion of understanding. Few will pick up on these matters. They are meant to be worked for and dug out.

Ezekiel 29
1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, in the twelfth day of the month, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.

When we are fishers of men, we understand that the spear of the Lord will also take hold of the dragon who owns the fish. Paul also taught this in many places in the N.T. such as in 2 Cor. 4:4, which also relates to the reality of Mark 4:15.

Paul was a spiritual correlative GENIUS, of course, by Divine Revelation.

We know that the great dragon really had nothing to do with Pharaoh the flesh man, but of the real wicked power that controlled that flesh man, WHOM GOD HARDENS.

The great dragon is revealed as to identity in Revelation

 

[smaller]

I learned that a person should not witness, unless we also bring up the topic of the Law. If you think about it, it makes complete sense, we're otherwise only telling 1/2 a story.

Indeed. The sword of the Spirit is the Word of God! We are meant to bear it.

 

[ezrider]

Can you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I'm fully understanding what your saying. I think I understand, but I'm not sure.
Thanks!

I think you and smaller have been doing an excellent job at explaining this topic.

I believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and in this I have been judged as guilty, and by His promise forgiven of my sins. To understand the law and what is written in it with a pure heart, I must do so knowing that I have been judged in it already.

If I do not receive the Word of God as someone already judged in Christ, then I am left susceptible to listening to the influence from the wicked one, with the same temptation that befell Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. The promise that they shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It is said of the cross that Jesus has taken unto Him all the sins in the world, so that in Him, we might know all of our sins by one.

 

[smaller]

I think you and smaller have been doing an excellent job at explaining this topic.

I believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and in this I have been judged as guilty, and by His promise forgiven of my sins. To understand the law and what is written in it with a pure heart, I must do so knowing that I have been judged in it already.

If I do not receive the Word of God as someone already judged in Christ, then I am left susceptible to listening to the influence from the wicked one, with the same temptation that befell Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. The promise that they shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It is said of the cross that Jesus has taken unto Him all the sins in the world, so that in Him, we might know all of our sins by one.

Paul taught us that we are to judge the angels. How much more then, the matters of this present life? You are entirely correct to take the adverse judgments of the law personally, and in those judgments, the letter that is meant to KILL, we locate ourselves and reckon ourselves as rightfully dead in the body because of the presence of sin. This is MANDATORY GROUND for any believer. The Law is that instrument of death. The reckoning is how we set our state of understandings in relationship to what we bear in our flesh that resists God in Christ.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

For Paul, this was a daily matter in his own life, because of that reality.

and btw, the angels that we will judge will be our own.

 

[stovebolts]

I think you and smaller have been doing an excellent job at explaining this topic.

I believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and in this I have been judged as guilty, and by His promise forgiven of my sins. To understand the law and what is written in it with a pure heart, I must do so knowing that I have been judged in it already.

If I do not receive the Word of God as someone already judged in Christ, then I am left susceptible to listening to the influence from the wicked one, with the same temptation that befell Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. The promise that they shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It is said of the cross that Jesus has taken unto Him all the sins in the world, so that in Him, we might know all of our sins by one.

Thank you, that was beautifully written.
What a joy to be called His children.

 

[stovebolts]

The Law is that instrument of death. The reckoning is how we set our state of understandings in relationship to what we bear in our flesh that resists God in Christ.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

For Paul, this was a daily matter in his own life, because of that reality.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone: but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit.

It's natural that we leave the protective shelter of the sheath where we were once alone and sheltered and surrounded by others in the same state, that we should fall to the ground, die and then be raised up within community. (Romans 6:2-8)