Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[stovebolts]

The amplified Bible has excellent footnote O.T. cross references of many matters in the N.T. that are correlated to the O.T. And even these are quite incomplete.

For example, Paul teachings of the raising of Pharoah in the spiritual senses as noted in Romans 9 are NOT referenced to the O.T. facts of Ezekiel 29 where the REAL Pharaoh in the spiritual senses is revealed and from whence Paul obtained that portion of understanding. Few will pick up on these matters. They are meant to be worked for and dug out.

Ezekiel 29
1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, in the twelfth day of the month, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.

When we are fishers of men, we understand that the spear of the Lord will also take hold of the dragon who owns the fish. Paul also taught this in many places in the N.T. such as in 2 Cor. 4:4, which also relates to the reality of Mark 4:15.

Paul was a spiritual correlative GENIUS, of course, by Divine Revelation.

We know that the great dragon really had nothing to do with Pharaoh the flesh man, but of the real wicked power that controlled that flesh man, WHOM GOD HARDENS.

The great dragon is revealed as to identity in Revelation

While I've never studied this passage, my time spent in Exodus (and Daniel) gives me a relatively clear picture of Pharaoh / Spirit of Pharaoh to which you're addressing. I also try to keep in mind that Ezekiel was a priest in exile who lamented over the destruction of the Temple. The whole theme as you've described, I believe, can be summed up in Paul's writing Romans 1:21-23

I like how you tied 2 Cor 4:4 with the events of Pharaoh. Nicely done. I had never put that together.

Many don't see what you and I see in Mark 4. You may really enjoy a workbook called Walking as Jesus Walked by Dan Spader. http://walkingasjesus.com/v1/ He uses the illustration of four chairs as the four steps within a Christian's walk. The most difficult is "bearing fruit". I think you'll really enjoy this

 

[stovebolts]

I don't find where Jesus or Paul or the Apostles said "some" of the law was made obsolete.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete...

JLB

Within context, the Covenant at Mt. Sinai has been made obsolete. It does not makes God's law obsolete.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This new Covenant was established by Jesus himself:
Matthew 26:27-28 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink you all of it; For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[Deborah13]

Are you afraid to say what the Bible says, that faith acted out in love for others fulfills the law of Moses? I know why you are afraid to come right out and say it. You have been indoctrinated by a misguided and uneducated church that thinks that not being under the law of Moses means we don't have to keep it's righteous requirements anymore, because to dare say that faith upholds or fulfills the law of Moses is nothing short of saying we are saved by our works. I understand your fear. I'm a part of that same misguided uneducated church and have been exposed to this same bunk, too.



Deborah, you're rambling. This does not answer the questions I asked you. Here they are again:

Are you suggesting that Christ's fulfillment of the law means your faith does not have to fulfill it?

Why can't you acknowledge what Paul said that when YOU have faith in God and YOU love others as a result that YOU fulfill the law of Moses? Are you afraid that somehow makes the gospel of grace the gospel of works that Paul condemns?​

You are too funny.
In the past conversations I have explained to you that I believe that when we obey the two commandments given by Jesus we fulfill the Intent of all law, including the Intent of the Law of Moses. God's moral laws.
I don't think that you are promoting a works based faith when you say that we fulfill the Law of Moses, nor when TOG eats kosher does he do that believing that it justifies him.
I believe there was more than one reason that God made the covenant of the Law of Moses with the nation of Israel. We as God's people would still be obligated to keep every jot and tittle if that covenant had not been fulfilled by our Lord. Not just the one's we pick and choose to do.
God is very legal. His systems are legal. He does not hodge podge things together. God makes covenants. Some where everlasting, the Law of Moses had a time limit, that has been pointed out to you several times, which you choose to ignore.
I have quoted Paul from Romans 1, showing that man from the very beginning knew God's moral laws. Man never had to guess about how God excepted him to behave.

The Law of Moses itself shows God's love for His people. That theocracy with it's sometimes rather odd laws, kosher clothes, etc., set His people apart from all the other nations of the earth. Now the Messiah and His kingdom sets His people apart from all the other people and kingdoms of the earth. No greater love could God show His people than by sending His own Son. No greater love could God show than to make an everlasting covenant with His Son, who will always remain faithful to that covenant. Hang on tightly to His tzitzit, He will never forget or be unfaithful to one jot or tittle of Torah.

 

[ezrider]

Matt 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

There is only one mountain that I know of that requires faith to remove it hence, and that is Mt. Sinai.

Hebrews 12:18-24
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake;
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[stovebolts]

Nice one ezrider Nice!

 

[Deborah13]

Matt 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

There is only one mountain that I know of that requires faith to remove it hence, and that is Mt. Sinai.

Hebrews 12:18-24
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake;
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

:nod

 

[4afaithfulone]

What is the truth? Is the Law of God as revealed in the Old Testament done away with – obsolete and terminated – obliterated and nullified by God’s grace?
If so, then why did Jesus Christ declare, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law . . . I came not to destroy but to FULFILL” Matt.5:17, 18. He added, “For assuredly, I say to yoy, till haven and earth pass away, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (v.18). Are heaven and earth still around? If so, then the Law of God is still in existence, also!

You will need an Adobe Reader to open the below link. http://webhelper.centurylink.com/in...//www.adobe reader/&r=http://www.adobe.com/

http://www.triumphpro.com/law-and-the-covenants.pdf

Jesus(the Word) said, he is the same yesterday, today and forever for the Word of God never changes! So yes, the Laws of God are the foundation, the Rock, The Stone, the 10 commandents are immovable that the true temple(Christ's Body) must be build upon. We do not have the whole 613 laws that were accumulated for breaking the original 10 written in The Stone.
HOWEVER! Laws can not change anyone, in fact it only exalts sin and condemnation. Example:
If someone comes into my home, there are no laws, they are free from any laws. But! If they show lawlessness(no common sense) by opening my mail, jumping on the furniture, harming my family etc.... then they have now subjected themselves to some laws when coming into my home.

Yet that does not mean that they will obey these laws, it just means that they are now known to them bringing them into captivity/bondage. It will bring up either anxiety and fear of breaking them which now causes much condemnation or obedience but either way, they now have a list of do's and don'ts that they brought upon themselves. The problem is that when laws are made, they most times blanket the lawless and the law abiding citizen, so that even those who do use common sense are now subject to this bondage even though they did nothing. And since we know that laws in themselves can change no one, the lawless ones whom the laws are made for, pay the law no mind and still do just as they please leaving it a burden for the good people.
So God has given us a better covenant in Christ by sending His Son to fulfill the Law for us so that we could have right standing with God and once again, as Adam had, receive the Holy Spirit who teaches us how to be doers of the Word and not just hearers only. We have been given a grace time so that we can be born again from above to grow as spiritual babes to learn how to do what is right in God's sight so we do not have to be told with laws hanging over us. For when we love God and one another as we would want to them to love us, we shall not lie to them, cheat them, covet what they have,steal from them etc... which if done correctly, sums up the law.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. KJV

Blessings

 

[DiscipleDave]

Are there actually people here teaching that we must keep the law?

How are they any different than those of Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: They gave NO such commandment. If then the Apostle of Jesus Christ never commanded for them in the early Church to keep the law, why do we have people today teaching you must keep the law? oh i forgot who i was talking to, the last days generation.
Believe the Word of God and not what men teach. The Word of God teaches that they gave no such commandment to keep the law. men in this generation teach you must keep the law, as to add burden to you. As if Jesus was not enough, and that law keeping was required as well. Listen not unto them, obey the Word of God and what it says, do not listen to what men teach, especially men from this generation, who have not been taught by God, but self taught.

^i^

 

[smaller]

Are there actually people here teaching that we must keep the law?

How are they any different than those of Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: They gave NO such commandment. If then the Apostle of Jesus Christ never commanded for them in the early Church to keep the law, why do we have people today teaching you must keep the law? oh i forgot who i was talking to, the last days generation.
Believe the Word of God and not what men teach. The Word of God teaches that they gave no such commandment to keep the law. men in this generation teach you must keep the law, as to add burden to you. As if Jesus was not enough, and that law keeping was required as well. Listen not unto them, obey the Word of God and what it says, do not listen to what men teach, especially men from this generation, who have not been taught by God, but self taught.

^i^

There are fleshly understood commandments and there are spiritually understood commandments.

Same commandments. Different basis of understanding.

Example you cited for circumcision. Fleshly understanding.

Paul's example of understanding the same commandment:

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Same commandment. Different basis of sight.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God makes covenants. Some where everlasting, the Law of Moses had a time limit, that has been pointed out to you several times, which you choose to ignore.

The literal first covenant is what had a time limit on it, having been set aside by the work of Christ. You are confusing that with the righteous requirement(s) of the law of Moses that have not been set aside as obsolete and which Paul says are fulfilled when we love others.

The fact that they get fulfilled by us when we love others demonstrates how we must distinguish between the literal covenant of temple, priesthood, and temple that did get laid aside by the work of Christ, and the righteous requirements of the law that remain to be fulfilled by us when we walk in the fruit of the Spirit.

So you see I'm not ignoring the fact that the first covenant has been set aside as unneeded in favor of a new and better covenant. What I'm doing is acknowledging what the Bible says that the requirements of the law did not get set aside as unneeded with that first covenant. That is abundantly clear by Paul saying we fulfill those requirements in this New Covenant over and over again when we love others, even commanding us to to that.

 

[Deborah13]

Are there actually people here teaching that we must keep the law?

How are they any different than those of Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: They gave NO such commandment. If then the Apostle of Jesus Christ never commanded for them in the early Church to keep the law, why do we have people today teaching you must keep the law? oh i forgot who i was talking to, the last days generation.
Believe the Word of God and not what men teach. The Word of God teaches that they gave no such commandment to keep the law. men in this generation teach you must keep the law, as to add burden to you. As if Jesus was not enough, and that law keeping was required as well. Listen not unto them, obey the Word of God and what it says, do not listen to what men teach, especially men from this generation, who have not been taught by God, but self taught.

^i^

No, I don't see that anyone here is saying that one must keep the Law of Moses for justification.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In the past conversations I have explained to you that I believe that when we obey the two commandments given by Jesus we fulfill the Intent of all law, including the Intent of the Law of Moses. God's moral laws.

Are you afraid to say the law of Moses gets fulfilled when we love others? Saying that the intent of the law of Moses gets fulfilled seems like a dodge to me that you can't bring yourself to say what Paul plainly says, that the law gets fulfilled when we love others.

If that's true, what are you afraid of? What's the sin of saying the law of Moses gets fulfilled by us when we have faith in Christ and walk in that faith by loving others? Don't start with the 'it got laid aside' stuff. I showed you it is the literal first covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice that got laid aside, not the righteous requirements of the law that Paul says faith fulfills.

 

[DiscipleDave]

What are His commandments?

I John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, (pay attention here is His Commandments) That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and 2) love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

You do not have to obey any other commandments. these are the two we are commanded to keep. Anyone who teaches contrary to what Apostle John just said are liars and do not know the Truth, no matter how loudly they proclaim that they do.

It is True that if a person Truly LOVES ONE ANOTHER, that they will be fulfilling the laws given to the Israelites under the old covenant. But to them who think you must keep the 10 commandments and that is enough. You can keep the 10 commandments perfectly without error and still enter into eternal fire, because you failed to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Do we have to obey Old Testament?

^i^

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and 2) love one another, as he gave us commandment.

You do not have to obey any other commandments. these are the two we are commanded to keep.

I don't have to obey any other commandment? But if I don't obey the commands to 'do not take vengeance', and 'do not bear a grudge', for example, how can I be loving another?

Isn't 'do not take vengeance' and 'do not bear a grudge' an example of how I love another person? How can I not do those and still be 'loving my neighbor as myself'?

 

[Deborah13]

The literal first covenant is what had a time limit on it, having been set aside by the work of Christ. You are confusing that with the righteous requirement(s) of the law of Moses that have not been set aside as obsolete and which Paul says are fulfilled when we love others.

Well let's just look at the verse you are paraphrasing....
YLT
Rom 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
NASB
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
KJV
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

According to the YLT, NASB (the Bible you usually quote from) and the KJV there is one singular noun here translated as requirement or righteousness. So what I see is that when we walk in Christ, in the Spirit of Him, we establish (uphold) and fulfill is the righteousness of the law. All of God's law. God's laws are righteous, holy, and good.

Did you ever notice in reading Matthew how that the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus interprets the law correctly and He tells them to teach it and do it. At that time he told the apostles to only go to the sheep of Israel. Then later, after the resurrection He spends 40 days with the apostles teaching them Commandments and telling them to go out and teach the world. 40 days, the same number of days Moses spent with God on Mt Sinai.
When there is a change in the priesthood there is a change in the law.

The fact that they get fulfilled by us when we love others demonstrates how we must distinguish between the literal covenant of temple, priesthood, and temple that did get laid aside by the work of Christ, and the righteous requirements of the law that remain to be fulfilled by us when we walk in the fruit of the Spirit.

So you see I'm not ignoring the fact that the first covenant has been set aside as unneeded in favor of a new and better covenant. What I'm doing is acknowledging what the Bible says that the requirements of the law did not get set aside as unneeded with that first covenant. That is abundantly clear by Paul saying we fulfill those requirements in this New Covenant over and over again when we love others, even commanding us to to that.

I have two questions for you.
In which Bible translation do you read 'righteous requirements' of the Law?
What is the requirement of the Law of Moses or any law God has given?

 

[JLB]

Are there actually people here teaching that we must keep the law?

How are they any different than those of Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: They gave NO such commandment. If then the Apostle of Jesus Christ never commanded for them in the early Church to keep the law, why do we have people today teaching you must keep the law? oh i forgot who i was talking to, the last days generation.
Believe the Word of God and not what men teach. The Word of God teaches that they gave no such commandment to keep the law. men in this generation teach you must keep the law, as to add burden to you. As if Jesus was not enough, and that law keeping was required as well. Listen not unto them, obey the Word of God and what it says, do not listen to what men teach, especially men from this generation, who have not been taught by God, but self taught.

^i^

Yes.

There are at least two people here teaching us that we need to keep the law of Moses.

Jethro Bodine & TOG.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

What are His commandments?

I John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, (pay attention here is His Commandments) That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and 2) love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

You do not have to obey any other commandments. these are the two we are commanded to keep. Anyone who teaches contrary to what Apostle John just said are liars and do not know the Truth, no matter how loudly they proclaim that they do.

It is True that if a person Truly LOVES ONE ANOTHER, that they will be fulfilling the laws given to the Israelites under the old covenant. But to them who think you must keep the 10 commandments and that is enough. You can keep the 10 commandments perfectly without error and still enter into eternal fire, because you failed to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Do we have to obey Old Testament?

^i^

All of the commandments are about loving God and loving one another. But even more so they show us clearly that God loves each and every one of us.

 

[JLB]

The literal first covenant is what had a time limit on it, having been set aside by the work of Christ. You are confusing that with the righteous requirement(s) of the law of Moses that have not been set aside as obsolete and which Paul says are fulfilled when we love others.

The fact that they get fulfilled by us when we love others demonstrates how we must distinguish between the literal covenant of temple, priesthood, and temple that did get laid aside by the work of Christ, and the righteous requirements of the law that remain to be fulfilled by us when we walk in the fruit of the Spirit.

So you see I'm not ignoring the fact that the first covenant has been set aside as unneeded in favor of a new and better covenant. What I'm doing is acknowledging what the Bible says that the requirements of the law did not get set aside as unneeded with that first covenant. That is abundantly clear by Paul saying we fulfill those requirements in this New Covenant over and over again when we love others, even commanding us to to that.

The laws and commandments of God that were before the law was added, and were manifested in the law of Moses, and remain a part of the Abrahamic Covenant that has been renewed and now called the New Covenant, though the law has been made obsolete, are written on our heart and are to be obeyed by the Church today.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I don't have to obey any other commandment? But if I don't obey the commands to 'do not take vengeance', and 'do not bear a grudge', for example, how can I be loving another?

Isn't 'do not take vengeance' and 'do not bear a grudge' an example of how I love another person? How can I not do those and still be 'loving my neighbor as myself'?

Try stating that forwards instead of backwards.
If you love your neighbor, you won't be doing those things to them. That is the effect or outcome of love. It is the fruit of love.
We get that kind of love from Christ in us. He produces that love in us, and the fruit is how we treat others. It is the witness of the glory and righteousness of Christ in us.

 

[JLB]

Well let's just look at the verse you are paraphrasing....
YLT
Rom 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
NASB
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
KJV
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

According to the YLT, NASB (the Bible you usually quote from) and the KJV there is one singular noun here translated as requirement or righteousness. So what I see is that when we walk in Christ, in the Spirit of Him, we establish (uphold) and fulfill is the righteousness of the law. All of God's law. God's laws are righteous, holy, and good.

Did you ever notice in reading Matthew how that the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus interprets the law correctly and He tells them to teach it and do it. At that time he told the apostles to only go to the sheep of Israel. Then later, after the resurrection He spends 40 days with the apostles teaching them Commandments and telling them to go out and teach the world. 40 days, the same number of days Moses spent with God on Mt Sinai.
When there is a change in the priesthood there is a change in the law.


I have two questions for you.
In which Bible translation do you read 'righteous requirements' of the Law?
What is the requirement of the Law of Moses or any law God has given?

What is the requirement of the Law of Moses or any law God has given?

Oh oh oh oh, I know!!!

Pick me pick me pick me!!!



If he doesn't answer, can I answer? Huh can I can I can I