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Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

Not quite what I see is the answer but at the same time not incorrect either. :nod
Let's see what Jethro says, maybe he'll respond tomorrow.
 
Deborah13 said:
Well let's just look at the verse you are paraphrasing....
YLT
Rom 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
NASB
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
KJV
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

According to the YLT, NASB (the Bible you usually quote from) and the KJV there is one singular noun here translated as requirement or righteousness. So what I see is that when we walk in Christ, in the Spirit of Him, we establish (uphold) and fulfill is the righteousness of the law. All of God's law. God's laws are righteous, holy, and good.

Did you ever notice in reading Matthew how that the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus interprets the law correctly and He tells them to teach it and do it. At that time he told the apostles to only go to the sheep of Israel. Then later, after the resurrection He spends 40 days with the apostles teaching them Commandments and telling them to go out and teach the world. 40 days, the same number of days Moses spent with God on Mt Sinai.
When there is a change in the priesthood there is a change in the law.
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I have been wondering if you are still thinking that I'm saying that fulfilling the law of Moses means keeping it literally to the letter of the law as given to the Isrealites. This post seems to confirm that. Is that what you think I'm saying?


Deborah13 said:
I have two questions for you.
In which Bible translation do you read 'righteous requirements' of the Law?
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26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?" (Romans 2:26 NASB)

(I will not add any commentary to this, yet. I want to see what you say, first.)


Deborah13 said:
What is the requirement of the Law of Moses...
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To be righteous. Holy.

Deborah13 said:
...or any law God has given?
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To fulfill and satisfy the righteousness that law commands.

The point with the law of Moses in this New Covenant is there are some things that got fulfilled by what Christ did that make it so we simply don't have to literally do those things anymore. The problem so many people have is confusing the things that Christ did NOT fulfill for you with the things that he did. They make these misguided claims that 'you can't divide up the law', 'it has to all be done, or none at all' to somehow negate the simple fact that the Bible explains there are things we have to still literally do in the law ('love your neighbor as yourself'), and things we do not literally do because Christ did them (Day of Atonement, Passover, etc.). That's why it's important to distinguish between the literal covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice, and 'love your neighbor as yourself' and all the laws that represent that when considering how the law of Moses gets fulfilled in this New Covenant, not nullified.

But no matter what things get literally fulfilled by us when we walk by the Spirit, and what things don't have to be literally fulfilled by us because Jesus already did them once and for all to God's complete and total satisfaction, the simple fact remains that ALL of the law of Moses gets fulfilled in this New Covenant, not nullified and replaced by a 'different' law as so many insist.

To replace the law without fulfilling it is to in effect nullify and abolish it. When you say we keep a different 'love your neighbor as yourself', and not the Mosaic one, that leaves the Mosaic one unkept. Jesus said he did not come to do that. Even if you want to insist 'fulfilling' the law means interpreting it correctly, that still means 'not destroying' it for the purpose of upholding it, not nulllifying it. (Think about it). Saying that fulfilling the law means to interpret it correctly is not an escape from the simple fact that proper interpretation means proper fulfillment of the law's requirements, and that Jesus came so that we might fulfill and uphold the law of Moses, not nullify it.

It's ironic that the church's explanation for 'fulfilling the law' (interpreting it correctly) actually does what that fulfilling/explaining is supposed to prevent--destroy it by leaving it unmet and unsatisfied.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
But no matter what things get literally fulfilled by us when we walk by the Spirit, and what things don't have to be literally fulfilled by us because Jesus already did them once and for all to God's complete and total satisfaction, the simple fact remains that ALL of the law of Moses gets fulfilled in this New Covenant, not nullified and replaced by a 'different' law as so many insist.
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Please tell me, what things get literally fulfilled by us? And where was it written in the Law and the Prophets that we should fulfill anything?
The Law and the Prophets as well as the Psalmist testified to the things that Christ was to fulfill, not Jethro, nor any of us.
 
ezrider said:
Please tell me, what things get literally fulfilled by us?
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'Love your neighbor as yourself'.

And in case you do not know what Biblical love is...

"10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this..." (Romans 13:10-11 NASB)

Christ did not do that for you. YOU and I have to do that. Paul tells us to do that. We do that by the same faith that secured the things that Christ did do for us (Day of Atonement, Passover, etc.). And we certainly don't do that in order to justify ourselves before God. We do that because we have already been justified by faith in God's forgiveness and given the righteous nature of Christ to then do righteous things--that 'so that the righteous requirement(s) of the law might be met in us' thing (Romans 8:4 NASB).


ezrider said:
And where was it written in the Law and the Prophets that we should fulfill anything?
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By virtue of what a command is, it demands fulfillment. Christ fulfilled some things. Our obedient, Spirit-filled love for others fulfills the rest.

ezrider said:
The Law and the Prophets as well as the Psalmist testified to the things that Christ was to fulfill, not Jethro, nor any of us.
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You left out Hebrews. It probably explains best what Christ fulfilled for us in regard to the righteousness of the law once and for all, making it so we don't have to do that over and over as the people of God had to do in the first covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice.

Don't listen to me just because I'm a famous movie star. Read for yourself what I'm showing you the Bible itself says about what righteousness of the law is fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction by Christ on the cross, and what continuing debt of righteousness gets fulfilled by us through our obedient, Spirit-filled love for others.
 
ezrider said:
Please tell me, what things get literally fulfilled by us? And where was it written in the Law and the Prophets that we should fulfill anything?
The Law and the Prophets as well as the Psalmist testified to the things that Christ was to fulfill, not Jethro, nor any of us.
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Jethro is on the right track, seeing that in the action of loving our neighbors, that is a spiritual fulfillment of the Spiritual Intentions of the law, no different than Jesus expressing Divine Love into the world and it's people.

Jesus, like the Word itself was first to go or was sent to carnal man, the flesh men of Israel and it's forefathers. Jesus Himself bowed to first the natural (flesh) man, then the resurrected Glorified Body Man. This is a Divine Principle that Paul details in many places. The difficulty that we ALL have is that we are all first carnal and have a hard time moving into that which we are not yet in full. We deal with the Divine Seed that has been planted in our own ground, our carnal mind/body.

The Word is first carnal in appearance to everyone. Then it is spiritual. There is a spiritual book written within a carnal book, just as it is with the saints themselves.

There is other fulfillment typology written into the text as well.

Psalm 149:
4 For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

We are engaged in the struggle with the carnal man and the spiritual man individually. The world itself is in the same struggle.
 
JLB said:
Yes.

There are at least two people here teaching us that we need to keep the law of Moses.

Jethro Bodine & TOG.


JLB
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'Keep' the law of Moses has the connotation of keeping it to the letter of the law. I do not say we have to do that. I use the words 'fulfill' and 'uphold' and 'satisfy' to describe the law not being nullified and abolished in this New Covenant.

Now I know TOG endorses a complete 'keeping' of the law of Moses in this New Covenant. He has my complete and total respect because he plainly says he is not hoping to be declared righteous in and of himself for doing that, and it's certainly not prohibited, and he's probably doing it out of the same love and adoration for God that I have for God. He is my brother. Who am I to take away the legitimate expression of his love for God? That would be destroying the work of God, not establishing it.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
It's ironic that the church's explanation for 'fulfilling the law' (interpreting it correctly) actually does what that fulfilling/explaining is supposed to prevent--destroy it by leaving it unmet and unsatisfied.
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Probably one of the most profound statements of fact above I've seen here in awhile. Yes, that is entirely true. But it is a Divine Irony which God winks at. Once it's seen you will see the humor in it.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
'Keep' the law of Moses has the connotation of keeping it to the letter of the law. I do not say we have to do that. I use the words 'fulfill' and 'uphold' and 'satisfy' to describe the law not being nullified and abolished in this New Covenant.

Now I know TOG endorses a complete 'keeping' of the law of Moses in this New Covenant. He has my complete and total respect because he plainly says he is not hoping to be declared righteous in and of himself for doing that, and it's certainly not prohibited, and he's probably doing it out of the same love and adoration for God that I have for God. He is my brother. Who am I to take away the legitimate expression of his love for God? That would be destroying the work of God, not establishing it.
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Paul also kept the law himself in the fashions of Judaism when it suited him to do so. And primarily because he saw the law for what it is, not necessarily as they saw it.

Paul also makes numerous allowances for differences of sight in many places. Some will see things differently at first, and until they deal with their own conscience, they will see that they should do things or they feel convictions if they don't, and to them such things doing or not doing is sin. And it is. This is expressed through not eating certain meats or seeing one day as holier than another. They have the allowed space to do as they see according to their own convictions.
 
DiscipleDave said:
Are there actually people here teaching that we must keep the law?

How are they any different than those of Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
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They (we, actually, since I'm one of them) are very different. The people mentioned in Acts were saying that Gentiles must keep the law before they could be saved. I say we we should keep the law after we are saved. Big difference. In the former case (in Acts) obeying the law was a requirement for salvation. In the latter case (what I and others here say) keeping the law is a response to being saved.

The TOG​
 
Deborah13 said:
Try stating that forwards instead of backwards.
If you love your neighbor, you won't be doing those things to them. That is the effect or outcome of love. It is the fruit of love.
We get that kind of love from Christ in us. He produces that love in us, and the fruit is how we treat others. It is the witness of the glory and righteousness of Christ in us.
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Why didn't the church James addresses in his letter not have this forward working of the righteousness of Christ and love for others in them causing them to be obedient to Christ? How does James bring them into that forward working of Christ's righteousness and love for others--he tells them what the law says about how to treat people, and to do it.
 
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smaller said:
Paul also kept the law himself in the fashions of Judaism when it suited him to do so. And primarily because he saw the law for what it is, not necessarily as they saw it.

Paul also makes numerous allowances for differences of sight in many places. Some will see things differently at first, and until they deal with their own conscience, they will see that they should do things or they feel convictions if they don't, and to them such things doing or not doing is sin. And it is. This is expressed through not eating certain meats or seeing one day as holier than another. They have the allowed space to do as they see according to their own convictions.
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Thumbs up.
Romans 14 is exactly what I was making reference to when I made my post.
 
TOG said:
They (we, actually, since I'm one of them) are very different. The people mentioned in Acts were saying that Gentiles must keep the law before they could be saved. I say we we should keep the law after we are saved. Big difference. In the former case (in Acts) obeying the law was a requirement for salvation. In the latter case (what I and others here say) keeping the law is a response to being saved.

The TOG​
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Somehow the church misses this very important point--that what is prohibited about the law is keeping it for the purpose of being justified in and of your own goodness, not doing it for any and all reasons.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Somehow the church misses this very important point--that what is prohibited about the law is keeping it for the purpose of being justified in and of your own goodness, not doing it for any and all reasons.
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The flesh man does what a flesh man naturally does. And a spiritual man does what a spiritual man naturally does.

There is no amount of anything that a flesh man can do that will justify him. And likewise, there is nothing a spiritual man does that will condemn him.
 
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