Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[smaller]

I'm not trying to say thinking murder or adultery is not sin. What I'm saying it is NOT the equivalent of actually committing those things. That is just plain stupid. I would think it fair that there be a dead body as evidence if one is going to be condemned for murdering someone.

Sin is a progression from evil thoughts to evil words to evil deeds, deeds being the completion of that cycle of demonic slaveship,

but none avoid the first step in any cases of measures. It's just as much the sin in thought as the sin in deed.

See Matt. 5:28 for Jesus' facts on one matter. There are many such examples. I will take His Measure as the definitive of committing adultery as a sin in mind and heart. Even with the slightest thought. Not the 'excused' thought that so most are led into.

Let's just see it for what it is, as Jesus said.

He, Jesus will MAGNIFY the law, and He certainly did that, taking sin from an external measure of action to an internal measure of evil thought where it comes from.

I will bow to His Measure in GUILT.

 

[Sinthesis]

How can they not be the same? Who gave the Law to Moses?

God binds Himself by His laws and to His laws. That has no bearing on His authority to pass judgement.

The laws of God were always meant to be kept both in letter and in spirit. There are no "technicalities" with God.

I'm sure you meant "these Two Commandments" (the essence of the Ten). Indeed even those two can be distilled down to just one "LOVE is the fulfilling of the LAW" (Rom 13:10).

I'm in 100% agreement what what you have said, and it simply amazes me that people cannot grasp these simple and basic truths. There is such a term as "biblical illiterate" and I believe vast numbers are in that category.

Thank you for making my point, which is that the law God gave the Israelites through Moses, known as Moses' law, is not fundamental, meaning it can be further condensed into Jesus' two commandments, and ultimately the singular commandment to love, which is the fundamental expression of God's law, and truly the one flowing from God's nature because each Person of The Godhead is the personification of Love. So Moses' and God's law are not exactly the same even though they can be equalized. Moses' law is God's law unfolded and expanded with particulars to guide those who, absent The Spirit, couldn't translate every situational response into love on their own. And how could they before Christ's finished work?

 

[JLB]

God required that the gentiles who followed God have the same law as the Israelites. This is right out of the law itself.

You're getting hung up because you fail to understand the church at Rome that Paul is addressing. Of course the churches, composed of both Jews and gentiles, had the law of Moses. Acts 15 reminds us of how the law of Moses had been taught in all the nations.

I see that you are wanting to continue to talk in circles.

Acts 15 teaches us that the law was not required of Gentiles turning to God.

Acts 15:21 reminds us that the law was taught on every Sabbath and not one single solitary human being except Jesus Christ ever kept the law, ever.

No matter how many times the law was read, no one ever was able to keep it.

Was God a husband to the gentile nations, and give them the law of Moses?

Yes or No?

 

[JLB]

You and I were not married to God before we came to faith in Christ.


Yes you were. And like an obedient wife you obeyed it's husbandly dictates. And the law acted as a kind of marriage contract that kept you bound in that relationship.


Now maybe you can understand how closely tied to your sin nature you were before Christ. Paul is using marriage to illustrate how close we were bound to our sin nature before Christ.


The authority of the law was nailed to the cross. It's authority to condemn you, and it's power to hold you fast in your sin was nailed to the cross. 'Do not steal', for example, was not nailed to the cross. That's absurd.



'Do not steal' was not made obsolete. That's ridiculous.

The authority of the law to hold you condemned, held fast in your sins, is what was dealt with at the cross regarding the law that was against us, condemning us.

God Himself made the law obsolete.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

The authority of the law was nailed to the cross. It's authority to condemn you, and it's power to hold you fast in your sin was nailed to the cross. 'Do not steal', for example, was not nailed to the cross. That's absurd.

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


All the law, not parts of it, all the law was wiped out!

All the law was nailed to the cross.


Do not steal was part of God's law that Abraham obeyed, [Abrahamic Covenant] and remained intact after the law that was added became obsolete.


The Abrahamic Covenant which the law was added to, remained intact after the law became obsolete.

This original Covenant that the Lord Jesus made with Abraham, and contained the Covenant Commandments that Abraham obeyed never became obsolete, it was the law that was added that became obsolete.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

Jethro
Do you honestly think that these righteous laws that God gave to the children of Israel, were somehow given to, and obeyed obeyed by Gentile nations as well, who never were given this law about marriage?
Yes or No?

God gave all mankind -- including the Gentiles -- a conscience -- which was the Ten Commandments "written in their hearts" (Rom 2:14,15). So yes, the Gentiles did follow their conscience, and adultery was unacceptable among all Gentiles.

 

[JLB]

God gave all mankind -- including the Gentiles -- a conscience -- which was the Ten Commandments "written in their hearts" (Rom 2:14,15). So yes, the Gentiles did follow their conscience, and adultery was unacceptable among all Gentiles.

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Romans 2:14-15


This is describing New Covenant Gentiles, not Gentiles before the law of Moses.

The law written on their hearts is New Covenant language.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:31-33

The Ten Commandments were God's Kingdom laws before mankind was even on the earth.

However it was the New Covenant that He began to "write them on the hearts of men.

Paul is comparing New Covenant Gentiles who don't have the law with Jews who do have the law.


...and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter;

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Romans 2:17-28


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is why He can condemn as hypocrites those who technically keep a written law, but transgress in spirit.

Is there an example of transgressing in spirit, which is not a transgression of written law?

 

[JLB]

It's an answer that you can't twist as easily as a simple yes or no. I'm not falling into that trap.

The TOG​

So you can't answer a simple question?

Are Gentiles living in America under the law of Moses?

Yes or No ?

Are Jews living in the land of Israel under the law of Moses ?


JLB

 

[Malachi]

This is describing New Covenant Gentiles, not Gentiles before the law of Moses.

How could you arrive at this conclusion??? Paul is comparing Jews (who have the Law) with Gentiles (who do not have the Law except what is written in their hearts -- conscience). In fact he specifically uses the word "conscience" (Rom 2:15 "their CONSCIENCE also bearing them witness").

These are not saved Gentiles or Christian Gentiles but ALL human beings who never saw the Ten Commandments. Please review the whole of chapters 2 and 3 of Romans. Conscience is the inner voice which tells any human being the difference between right and wrong, sin and righteousness. That is also what the Ten Commandments do.

 

[JLB]

How could you arrive at this conclusion??? Paul is comparing Jews (who have the Law) with Gentiles (who do not have the Law except what is written in their hearts -- conscience). In fact he specifically uses the word "conscience" (Rom 2:15 "their CONSCIENCE also bearing them witness").

These are not saved Gentiles or Christian Gentiles but ALL human beings who never saw the Ten Commandments. Please review the whole of chapters 2 and 3 of Romans. Conscience is the inner voice which tells any human being the difference between right and wrong, sin and righteousness. That is also what the Ten Commandments do.

False! Completely False!

God's laws written on the hearts of mankind is a New Covenant promise.

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:33


Having God's laws written on our heart is for New Covenant people.


Why in the world would God promise this if all mankind ALREADY had it.


Total and Complete NONSENSE!



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was God a husband to the gentile nations...

Christ is husband to believing gentiles.

...and give them the law of Moses?

Yes or No?

Believing gentiles were to have the same law as the native Israelite.


Your doctrine is so meaningless. I can't even discern what you're afraid of about the law of Moses. Just that you have this misguided disdain for the law of Moses. I don't see a shred of value in what you believe about the law. Not a shred. It has zero practical value.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God Himself made the law obsolete.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

We know this. Stop wearing yourself out with these repeated rants.

What you can't explain in your doctrine is the simple fact that Paul says the law is fulfilled by faith, not abolished or nullified by faith. The first covenant being made obsolete has no bearing on that fact whatsoever. None. The first covenant being made obsolete does not mean the same thing as the law being abolished or nullified.

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


All the law, not parts of it, all the law was wiped out!

All the law was nailed to the cross.

You can't even tell the difference between the law being fulfilled by faith in Christ and the first covenant being set aside by faith in Christ. That's why your doctrine makes no sense. You've blurred all the lines of meaning into a senseless mishmash of junk doctrine.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

We know this. Stop wearing yourself out with these repeated rants.

What you can't explain in your doctrine is the simple fact that Paul says the law is fulfilled by faith, not abolished or nullified by faith. The first covenant being made obsolete has no bearing on that fact whatsoever. None. The first covenant being made obsolete does not mean the same thing as the law being abolished or nullified.

I haven't seen one person say that the law was abolished or destroyed, as this doesn't even pertain to the subject matter.

No one can destroy the law except God Himself.

The language the scripture uses is He has made it obsolete.

and again -

He has taken it out of the way.

and again -

He has wiped out the handwriting of requirements.

That is the language I use, because that is the language of scripture.

The first covenant being made obsolete does not mean the same thing as the law being abolished or nullified.

I agree!

Jesus said He didn't come to destroy the law, which means mis-interpret the law.

He did however declare it was obsolete, wiped out, nailed to the cross and taken out of the way.

Why did God do this?

Because the law was added until the Seed should come...


What wasn't taken out of the way, or nailed to the cross, or declared to be obsolete is the Abrahamic Covenant, and the commandments that are a part of it.


That is the Covenant we are grated into, in Christ.


That Covenant requires you and I to walk with God, and obey His Voice.

That Covenant is what was "refreshed" and made New, not the Covenant at Sinai.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Believing gentiles were to have the same law as the native Israelite.

You seem to love to go around in circles.

That has nothing to do with my point.

Gentiles who live in the own country and never ever travel to Israel were never under the law of Moses.


Why in the world would you think an uncircumcised Gentile who never stepped foot in Israel would be under Moses law?

Even more so, why would uncircumcised Gentile Christians living in America, be under the law of Moses.


Gentile Christians living in Israel were not under the law of Moses even in the first Century with the temple still there.

Acts 15 -

4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--



You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Is there an example of transgressing in spirit, which is not a transgression of written law?

Think of any situation which is legally correct, but still morally incorrect. That is the inadequacy of a written law. It can't anticipate every possible scenario it which it may be applied, so these loopholes can be exploited by the unethical.

 

[TOG]

So you can't answer a simple question?

I did answer your question. It's just not the answer you wanted. You wanted one you could twist the meaning of to fit what you wanted to say, and I'm not going to give you that answer. I've been around long enough to know a trap when I see one.

SAre Gentiles living in America under the law of Moses?

Yes or No ?

I've already answered that.

Are Jews living in the land of Israel under the law of Moses ?

God's law applies in the same way to all of God's people, whether they be Jew or Gentile. The same answer applies to the Jews.

The TOG​

[/QUOTE]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I haven't seen one person say that the law was abolished or destroyed, as this doesn't even pertain to the subject matter.

No one can destroy the law except God Himself.

The language the scripture uses is He has made it obsolete.

and again -

He has taken it out of the way.

and again -

He has wiped out the handwriting of requirements.

That is the language I use, because that is the language of scripture.

Your version of 'obsolete' abolishes the law. That's what's wrong with your doctrine. For example, you say we don't keep 'do not steal' from the law of Moses. We keep 'do not steal' from a different law. You abolish the law of Moses 'do not steal' in favor of a different law of 'do not steal'.

Not only is that abolishing and nullifying the law of Moses, but it is a doctrine that is utterly useless and meaningless in the practical life of the Christian. You, or whoever created it, apparently created it to mend an imagined rift in scripture between the first covenant being laid aside because of faith in Christ and the law of Moses being fulfilled by faith in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said He didn't come to destroy the law, which means mis-interpret the law.

To misinterpret a law is to not keep a law. To say you do not have to keep a law because you misinterpreted it is the equivalent of abolishing that law.

What's interesting is your doctrine just tosses the law of Moses out the door and replaces it with a different law. At least the Pharisees rationalized their abolishing of the law of Moses.

What wasn't taken out of the way, or nailed to the cross, or declared to be obsolete is the Abrahamic Covenant, and the commandments that are a part of it.


That is the Covenant we are grated into, in Christ.

...And Paul said that walking in that Covenant fulfills the law, but you say it got rid of it in favor of a new law.

What the New Covenant of Priest, Sacrifice, and Temple does is make the old covenant of priesthood, sacrifice, and temple obsolete, not the law itself. An important distinction you fail to recognize. You have tossed the law out with the old covenant.

Your doctrine have the law of Moses being abolished in favor of a different law. My doctrine has the law of Moses being fulfilled in this New Covenant (just as the Bible says it is) and laid aside as a covenant between God and his people (which the Bible also says). My doctrine reconciles the two seemingly contradictory facts of the law being fulfilled, yet no longer a covenant by which we draw near to God through. Your attempt to reconcile the two by creating a different law that is fulfilled today effectively abolishes the law of Moses and leaves it unfulfilled by faith in Christ. That's a no-no. Jesus said he did not come to do that.

 

[JLB]

I did answer your question. It's just not the answer you wanted. You wanted one you could twist the meaning of to fit what you wanted to say, and I'm not going to give you that answer. I've been around long enough to know a trap when I see one.



I've already answered that.



God's law applies in the same way to all of God's people, whether they be Jew or Gentile. The same answer applies to the Jews.

The TOG​

[/QUOTE]


God's Law does.

The law of Moses does not.

God's laws and Commandments were obeyed by Abraham, 430 years before the law was added.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5

I've been around long enough to know a trap when I see one

Here is the simple question I have asked: Does the law of Moses apply to Gentiles living in America? Yes or No ?



Here is you answer that you gave with No scripture -

I believe that Gentiles living outside of Israel should keep all the commandments which it is possible to keep under those circumstances. Some commandments cannot be kept unless you live in or near Israel or only apply to certain groups, to which not everybody belongs (such as males, females, first born, etc.) People not in those particular groups don't need to worry about those laws. Some other commandments require something for their fulfillment which we don't have today, such as a temple in Jerusalem. Those commandments obviously can't be kept. But if they can be kept and aren't for some group we don't belong to, then we should keep them.

Here is what scripture says, and should be compared to your answer -

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 "Hear the words of this covenant, and speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; 3 and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God of Israel: "Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant 4 which I commanded your fathers in the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, 'Obey My voice, and do according to all that I command you; so shall you be My people, and I will be your God,' 5 that I may establish the oath which I have sworn to your fathers, to give them 'a land flowing with milk and honey,' as it is this day." ' " And I answered and said, "So be it, Lord." Jeremiah 11:1-5


and again


"If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues--great and prolonged plagues--and serious and prolonged sicknesses. Deuteronomy 28:58-59


and again -

Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left, Joshua 23:6



The law of Moses requires those who are under that law to do all that is written in the law of Moses.


I don't find where the law of Moses gave someone the option of doing parts of it, or some of the laws that they were able to do and leave of the rest.


What you described is not the law of Moses, but rather some man made set of rules that are not found in the law.



"If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book...



I can see now why you didn't include any scripture with you answer.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Your version of 'obsolete' abolishes the law. That's what's wrong with your doctrine. For example, you say we don't keep 'do not steal' from the law of Moses. We keep 'do not steal' from a different law. You abolish the law of Moses 'do not steal' in favor of a different law of 'do not steal'.

Not only is that abolishing and nullifying the law of Moses, but it is a doctrine that is utterly useless and meaningless in the practical life of the Christian. You, or whoever created it, apparently created it to mend an imagined rift in scripture between the first covenant being laid aside because of faith in Christ and the law of Moses being fulfilled by faith in Christ.

"My version of Obsolete" ?

God Himself made the law obsolete.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

You abolish the law of Moses 'do not steal' in favor of a different law of 'do not steal'.

Do not steal was God's law before the law of Moses added, and remained God's law after the law of Moses was declared Obsolete by God Himself.



There other phrases that are mentioned in the New Testament are -

taken out of the way, nailed to the cross, or having wiped out... the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

God's moral laws that were seen in the law, and were before the law was added, are eternal Kingdom laws that we need to literally obey today, which is showing God we love Him.

If we see a brother in need of food or clothing, we give to that one because we love God and we love people.



JLB