Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[JLB]

Merry Christmas to all!!!

The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you.
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.



May God Bless Christian Forum.net


I challenge everyone to give something to this wonderful ministry before the New Year.


This is the best run Christian Forum in the world.

A Big Salute to all the Moderators and staff Here.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Is there an example of transgressing in spirit, which is not a transgression of written law?

Of course. Anything that is not of faith is sin.

One of the biggest mistakes that Israel made with the written law was looking at same primarily in the strictly literal and external senses. That is not the nature of the law to begin with. The law addresses the facts of our internal 'issues' aka sin. We don't avoid the conclusions of having sin by the compliance and applications of external measures. That is the ground that they soiled themselves on and were eventually judged for it. There is no legitimate form of law keeping that will avoid the conclusions of the law, that being we all sin and have sin as an internal violation of our conscience. This is a permanent condition by virtue of being people bound in vile flesh and the various lusts and internal disobedience that come with that territory.

And some posters are correct, that the law of the conscience proves the same defiling. And the same exercises in false self justifications to deny the problems.

All people have a defiled conscience no matter how they approach subjects of law. Even in the arena of faith people will claim almost in reverse, that by having same internally, without expression, that they have faith. It's almost a mirror of the first problem.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[smaller]

Think of any situation which is legally correct, but still morally incorrect. That is the inadequacy of a written law. It can't anticipate every possible scenario it which it may be applied, so these loopholes can be exploited by the unethical.

There are other principles of law as well. Such as, the law itself prompts our minds to consider resisting. That is the power of the law in relationship to the power of sin, the law of sin, which internally fosters lawlessness by it's OWN resisting power quite apart from the person. Paul shows us this example in Romans 7 where the law against coveting caused internal defiling in the form of every manner of concupiscence within him.

IN other words, the more law, the greater the chances of sin. When we see the law pouring down on the people of Israel, the conclusion was already established for their eventual falling.

 

[TOG]

God's Law does.

The law of Moses does not.[/quote]

You seem to think there are two laws. I only see one. Tell me which of the following are in what you call "the law of Moses" and which are the law of God?

Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. (Lev. 11:3-5ESV )

You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material. (Lev. 19:19 ESV)

Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest (Ex. 31:15 ESV)​

Here is the simple question I have asked: Does the law of Moses apply to Gentiles living in America? Yes or No ?

Here is you answer that you gave with No scripture -

You asked for my belief on this subject, and that's what you got.

Here is what scripture says, and should be compared to your answer -

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 "Hear the words of this covenant, and speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; 3 and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God of Israel: "Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant 4 which I commanded your fathers in the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, 'Obey My voice, and do according to all that I command you; so shall you be My people, and I will be your God,' 5 that I may establish the oath which I have sworn to your fathers, to give them 'a land flowing with milk and honey,' as it is this day." ' " And I answered and said, "So be it, Lord." Jeremiah 11:1-5

and again

"If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues--great and prolonged plagues--and serious and prolonged sicknesses. Deuteronomy 28:58-59

and again -

Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left, Joshua 23:6

The law of Moses requires those who are under that law to do all that is written in the law of Moses.

I don't find where the law of Moses gave someone the option of doing parts of it, or some of the laws that they were able to do and leave of the rest.

You condemn yourself too harshly. While God does want us to keep the whole law, He has provided a way for us to receive forgiveness when we find that we cannot keep it or when we make mistakes and violate His commandments. If you repent of your violations against the law (aka sins) He will forgive you and release you from the curse of the law. What He does not promise, however, is to forgive those who willfully reject His law, wither in whole or in part.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

TOG said -

You seem to think there are two laws. I only see one.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...

God's law was "transgressed", 430 years before the law of Moses was added.


You err not knowing the scriptures.


JLB

 

[JLB]

TOG said -

You asked for my belief on this subject, and that's what you got.

Case in point!


Your belief is not scriptural.


JLB

 

[JLB]

TOG said -

You condemn yourself too harshly. While God does want us to keep the whole law, He has provided a way for us to receive forgiveness when we find that we cannot keep it or when we make mistakes and violate His commandments. If you repent of your violations against the law (aka sins) He will forgive you and release you from the curse of the law. What He does not promise, however, is to forgive those who willfully reject His law, wither in whole or in part.

I'm not under Moses Law, and am Not Condemned.

Only those who try to keep a part of it, and not continuing to do all that is written in it, are under a curse.


For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Galatians 3:10


JLB

 

[smaller]

I'm not under Moses Law, and am Not Condemned.

Only those who try to keep a part of it, and not continuing to do all that is written in it, are under a curse.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Galatians 3:10

JLB

Gods Law is against the lawless. We should be as well. The problems come when we confront the fact of our own lawlessness.

No criminal pleads guilty. They all claim they are innocent and in doing so, they all lie.

Lawlessness by the scripture is shown to be an internal matter in everyone. And God is Rightfully against all such workings in anyone.

May it ever be so.

 

[smaller]

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2:1-3

I know christian religious people don't really like to truthfully engage the matters of lawlessness on a personal level. We all think we are 'immune' in Christ.

But that was never the case. The law was always meant to force us all into a corner and be HONEST about our own internal lawlessness as a spiritual fact.

And at that point, the point of HONESTY, the LAW has been used to create HONESTY within us, which is a fruit of the Spirit.

Funny how that works, ain't it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know christian religious people don't really like to truthfully engage the matters of lawlessness on a personal level. We all think we are 'immune' in Christ.

But that was never the case. The law was always meant to force us all into a corner and be HONEST about our own internal lawlessness as a spiritual fact.

And at that point, the point of HONESTY, the LAW has been used to create HONESTY within us, which is a fruit of the Spirit.

Funny how that works, ain't it?

According to JLB's doctrine, why do I need to be convicted by a law that I don't have to keep because I'm not 'under' it anymore?

 

[smaller]

According to JLB's doctrine, why do I need to be convicted by a law that I don't have to keep because I'm not under it anymore?

Ah, these are such interesting subjects.

Every good thing we do comes with this as a reality.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

On this ground of fact lawkeeping doesn't exist.

We have good works that are done with evil present within us all. From there we have believers who are honest about it, and perhaps many more who aren't.

Would you consider that a fair assessment?

I might consider because of the fact, that I remain in perpetual need of our Savior. That is the position that the law brought me to realize.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There are other principles of law as well. Such as, the law itself prompts our minds to consider resisting. That is the power of the law in relationship to the power of sin, the law of sin, which internally fosters lawlessness by it's OWN resisting power quite apart from the person. Paul shows us this example in Romans 7 where the law against coveting caused internal defiling in the form of every manner of concupiscence within him.

Paul says this is true for the person still in union with the sin nature, not for people set free from the sin nature, because of the death of the sin nature, and who are now married to Christ and bear fruit to him.

For people not in Christ and still 'married' to the sin nature the law acts like a kind of marital license that binds that person into that relationship. Paul explains how that marital contract ends when husband sin nature dies.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ah, these are such interesting subjects.

Every good thing we do comes with this as a reality.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

On this ground of fact lawkeeping doesn't exist.

We have good works that are done with evil present within us all. From there we have believers who are honest about it, and perhaps many more who aren't.

Would you consider that a fair assessment?

I might consider because of the fact, that I remain in perpetual need of our Savior. That is the position that the law brought me to realize.

You didn't answer my question.

Why consult a law that JLB says was taken out of the way in order to keep that law?

 

[smaller]

Paul says this is true for the person still in union with the sin nature, not for people set free from the sin nature, because of the death of the sin nature, and who are now married to Christ and bear fruit to him.

Ah, but you see we are never released from honesty. Whether we lie about it or cover it up is the only question. The Light will eventually shine on the fact of evil present whether a man tries to cover it up with religious cloth or not. I simply prefer not to kid myself about it. And I don't believe anyone who lies about it. They just have no honesty. Pretty simple.

For people not in Christ and still 'married' to the sin nature the law acts like a kind of marital license that binds that person into that relationship. Paul explains how that marital contract ends when husband sin nature dies.

The indwelling sin that we all factually have will continue to maintain it's adverse working relationship to the law whether I care for it or not.

When we understand as Paul did, that indwelling sin is an operation that is NOT I or NO LONGER I, we are no longer made slaves of it.

We are released from slaveship on the ground of honesty. And we are trapped by lying hypocrisy when we aren't honest about it.

 

[smaller]

You didn't answer my question.

Why consult a law that JLB says was taken out of the way in order to keep that law?

The Word of God, every jot and tittle, IS ALIVE AND ACTIVE.

That includes every LAW, which proves us all sinners regardless of vain attempts to dodge the obvious.

God is neither fooled nor mocked. He sees inside, and He does see evil present with us all.

God Himself has set us all into a construct of GOOD and EVIL.

From that ground springs forth first, honesty about the evil. Then also comes HOPE for His Eventual taking away of that part of creation.

So evil in this way serves Divine Purposes on many counts.

No different than a flower springing up from the ground where turds reside.

 

[TOG]

Only those who try to keep a part of it, and not continuing to do all that is written in it, are under a curse.

That is precisely what you do. I assume you keep the parts that prohibit murder, rape, theft and idolatry and those parts that command us to honor our parents and love our neighbors, but, according to what you have previously posted, you don't keep the Sabbath or the dietary laws. You pick and chose which parts you want to keep and which parts you don't want to keep.

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. (Rom. 2:1 ESV)
​

The TOG

 

[TOG]

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...

God's law was "transgressed", 430 years before the law of Moses was added.


You err not knowing the scriptures.


JLB

Now who's refusing to answer simple questions? I mentioned three commandments and asked you which were the law of God and which were the law of Moses. Why no answer? Here they are again. Which of these to you think are the law of Moses and which are the law of God?

Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. (Lev. 11:3-5ESV )

You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material. (Lev. 19:19 ESV)

Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest (Ex. 31:15 ESV)
​

The TOG

 

[JLB]

Now who's refusing to answer simple questions? I mentioned three commandments and asked you which were the law of God and which were the law of Moses. Why no answer? Here they are again. Which of these to you think are the law of Moses and which are the law of God?

Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. (Lev. 11:3-5ESV )

You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material. (Lev. 19:19 ESV)

Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest (Ex. 31:15 ESV)
​

The TOG

I answered you with scripture.

The above mentioned laws were part of the law of Moses that was added, because of transgression.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19

That is precisely what you do. I assume you keep the parts that prohibit murder, rape, theft and idolatry and those parts that command us to honor our parents and love our neighbors, but, according to what you have previously posted, you don't keep the Sabbath or the dietary laws. You pick and chose which parts you want to keep and which parts you don't want to keep.

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. (Rom. 2:1 ESV)
​

The TOG

You know what they say about assuming...

 

[JLB]

That is precisely what you do. I assume you keep the parts that prohibit murder, rape, theft and idolatry and those parts that command us to honor our parents and love our neighbors, but, according to what you have previously posted, you don't keep the Sabbath or the dietary laws. You pick and chose which parts you want to keep and which parts you don't want to keep.

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. (Rom. 2:1 ESV)
​

The TOG

I don't pick any of them, as I am not under the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[TOG]

I answered you with scripture.

The above mentioned laws were part of the law of Moses that was added, because of transgression.

Let's take a closer look at the context of those verses (you really should have checked this out before answering).

And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. (Lev. 11:1-3 ESV)

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them... You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material. (Lev. 19:1-2,19 ESV)

And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say... Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest (Ex. 31:12-13, 15 ESV)​

You know what they say about assuming...

I apologize. It was wrong of me to assume that you were neither murderer, thief, rapist nor idolater or that you honored your parents or loved your neighbor. Since you have stated that you do not follow any of the law, I should have known you don't follow those either.

The TOG​