Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[JLB]

'Keep' the law of Moses has the connotation of keeping it to the letter of the law. I do not say we have to do that. I use the words 'fulfill' and 'uphold' and 'satisfy' to describe the law not being nullified and abolished in this New Covenant.

Now I know TOG endorses a complete 'keeping' of the law of Moses in this New Covenant. He has my complete and total respect because he plainly says he is not hoping to be declared righteous in and of himself for doing that, and it's certainly not prohibited, and he's probably doing it out of the same love and adoration for God that I have for God. He is my brother. Who am I to take away the legitimate expression of his love for God? That would be destroying the work of God, not establishing it.

I can appreciate your attitude.

However, it is faith expressing itself in the works of obedience, not the works of the law.

This is where so many like TOG have been taught incorrectly, by the Religion of Judaism, and not what the scriptures actually teach.

Keeping special days wearing special clothing, Mosaic Sabbath requirements, Kosher food laws and on and on... these are all the works of the law and lead people into bondage, and are not of faith.

Jesus didn't die on the cross and send The Holy Spirit to Baptize us and empower us for people to go back to doing the very things He came to redeem the children of Israel from.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:20-23

The law is not of faith.

Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Love expressing itself in faith, is another way of saying , being led by the Spirit of God.



JLB

 

[smaller]

I

Love expressing itself in faith, is another way of saying , being led by the Spirit of God.

JLB

I don't think Jethro is saying any different JLB. What's also being said though is that you view the law in carnal fashions. There is actually quite a bit more to those matters than just the external showings. Paul takes us effectively past that view into spiritual sights of the same law, and shows also that the external rigours are probably of no importance whatsoever.

The law contains many figures, types, shadows, allegories. All spiritual in nature.

Paul: "the law is spiritual."

You may certainly deride the carnal aspects of the law and say that's all that is there to be seen or had. But that is assuredly NOT the case that Jesus or the Apostles made.

 

[Shimshon]

This is where so many like TOG have been taught incorrectly, by the Religion of Judaism, and not what the scriptures actually teach.

Keeping special days wearing special clothing, Mosaic Sabbath requirements, Kosher food laws and on and on... these are all the works of the law and lead people into bondage, and are not of faith.

Jesus didn't die on the cross and send The Holy Spirit to Baptize us and empower us for people to go back to doing the very things He came to redeem the children of Israel from.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:20-23

The law is not of faith.

Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Love expressing itself in faith, is another way of saying , being led by the Spirit of God.



JLB

Actually, this is where many Christians have been taught incorrectly by the church fathers thru the doctrine of supersessionism. (Edit, ToS 2.4, unwanted spiritual advice, personal insult. Obadiah)

Romans 7
13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

What did Paul call good? What do we KNOW is spiritual? What is utterly sinful, the commandment or sin?

Who was told 'the righteous will live by faith', and what covenant where they under?

Can you answer these questions straight forward and with/in context? (Edit, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

Is not the law good and holy and has it not been placed upon your heart in faith?
(Edit, ToS 2.4, unwanted spiritual advice. Obadiah)

Inside, so you can do it.

(Edited, ToS 2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc. Obadiah)

 

[smaller]

If the claim is that by God in Christ Living in us means that we will execute the external ordinances of the O.T. law would not be a well accepted sight with too many.

I've heard a lot of Messianic christians make that claim. Invariably they wind up back in the same tail twisting dilemma of 'doing it' with the problems of what 'doing it' actually entails. And the likewise attending condemnation for 'not doing it' as the claimers claim 'doing it' must be done. And the other claim of 'doing it' meets certain satisfactions to 'avoid' whatever.

It can be a vicious circle. I would not recommend to anyone.

Actually, this is where many Christians have been taught incorrectly by the church fathers thru the doctrine of supersessionism. (Edit, ToS 2.4, unwanted spiritual advice, personal insult. Obadiah)

Romans 7
13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

What did Paul call good? What do we KNOW is spiritual? What is utterly sinful, the commandment or sin?

Who was told 'the righteous will live by faith', and what covenant where they under?

Can you answer these questions straight forward and with/in context? (Edit, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

Is not the law good and holy and has it not been placed upon your heart in faith?
(Edit, ToS 2.4, unwanted spiritual advice. Obadiah)

Inside, so you can do it.

(Edited, ToS 2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc. Obadiah)

 

[Shimshon]

If the claim is that by God in Christ Living in us means that we will execute the external ordinances of the O.T. law would not be a well accepted sight with too many.

I've heard a lot of Messianic christians make that claim. Invariably they wind up back in the same tail twisting dilemma of 'doing it' with the problems of what 'doing it' actually entails. And the likewise attending condemnation for 'not doing it' as the claimers claim 'doing it' must be done. And the other claim of 'doing it' meets certain satisfactions to 'avoid' whatever.

It can be a vicious circle. I would not recommend to anyone.

I have normally been staunchly against the Torah observant gentiles, but I am learning to live and let live. Truth is most Messianics are gentiles, and this won't change till Messiah comes back. I don't preach Torah observation I try to be true to God and myself and pray others do likewise.

 

[smaller]

I have normally been staunchly against the Torah observant gentiles, but I am learning to live and let live. Truth is most Messianics are gentiles, and this won't change till Messiah comes back. I don't preach Torah observation I try to be true to God and myself and pray others do likewise.

Fair enough. There are certain pledges on the ill side of the ledgers of law that can't be avoided by good acting performances, which is the essence of the pit of hypocrisy that the Pharisees fell into headlong.

That pit remains as a very effective trap.

 

[TOG]

I can appreciate your attitude.

​

However, it is faith expressing itself in the works of obedience, not the works of the law.

This is where so many like TOG have been taught incorrectly, by the Religion of Judaism, and not what the scriptures actually teach.

Keeping special days wearing special clothing, Mosaic Sabbath requirements, Kosher food laws and on and on... these are all the works of the law and lead people into bondage, and are not of faith.

Faith without works is dead. You keep your faith without works, and I'll keep doing works as a result of my faith.

Jesus didn't die on the cross and send The Holy Spirit to Baptize us and empower us for people to go back to doing the very things He came to redeem the children of Israel from.

First of all, Jesus didn't come to redeem us from God's law (which you call the law of Moses), but from what Paul calls "the law of sin and death".

Secondly, when a murderer, who is serving time in Prison, is pardoned, is he pardoned so he can go out and murder more people, or is he pardoned so he can go out and stop murdering and obey other laws as well? God did not pardon us and give us the Holy Spirit so that we could violate His commandments, but to give us the power to keep them.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:20-23

Right. Faith will lead us to do works of obedience to God.

The law is not of faith.

So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12 ESV)​

Is holiness, righteousness and goodness "not of faith"?

Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

And as you quoted yourself, faith, if it does not lead to works, is dead. Dead faith is not what pleases God.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

I don't think Jethro is saying any different JLB. What's also being said though is that you view the law in carnal fashions. There is actually quite a bit more to those matters than just the external showings. Paul takes us effectively past that view into spiritual sights of the same law, and shows also that the external rigours are probably of no importance whatsoever.

The law contains many figures, types, shadows, allegories. All spiritual in nature.

Paul: "the law is spiritual."

You may certainly deride the carnal aspects of the law and say that's all that is there to be seen or had. But that is assuredly NOT the case that Jesus or the Apostles made.

Please don't try and define my views of the law with your narrow observations of what you "think" I believe concerning the law.

As I have said many times, the law teaches us many wonderful deep spiritual truths about what Jesus did for us on the cross. Shadows and types are a fathomless depth of insight and truth about God's kingdom.

Just as true is Gentiles living in America are not and never were under the law of Moses.

Just as true is the fact that Covenant has been made obsolete and has vanished away.

Just as true is the fact that the law is not of faith.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Faith without works is dead. You keep your faith without works, and I'll keep doing works as a result of my faith.

The TOG​

(Edit, Tos 2.4, unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah.)

This statement you just made proves my point about what you believe and teach.

(Edit, Tos 2.4, unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah.)

It is the works of the obedience of faith that justifies us in the sight of God.

Not the works of the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I have normally been staunchly against the Torah observant gentiles, but I am learning to live and let live. Truth is most Messianics are gentiles, and this won't change till Messiah comes back. I don't preach Torah observation I try to be true to God and myself and pray others do likewise.

May God bless you richly.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just as true is Gentiles living in America are not and never were under the law of Moses.

You never explained how it is that Christ died to set us free from a law that we were never under to begin with.

Just as true is the fact that Covenant has been made obsolete and has vanished away.

And you never explained why Paul commands us to fulfill the law, not another law, that you say Christ died to set us free from, but which we were never under to begin with and aren't under in this New Covenant, either.

Just as true is the fact that the law is not of faith.

JLB

Justification through the law is contrary to and opposed to justification through faith. He's contrasting two distinct ways that a person seeks justification--law vs. faith. They are diametrically and utterly opposed to each other. He is not saying that keeping the law is categorically and without exception not having faith.

 

[TOG]

(Post deleted, response to deleted part of a post. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

TOG said -

So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12 ESV)

Is holiness, righteousness and goodness "not of faith"?

The law is not of faith.

Abraham obeyed the law and commandments that came directly from
God. That is the only way they are kept by faith.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

(Post deleted, response to deleted part of a post. Obadiah)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law is not of faith.

Abraham obeyed the law and commandments that came directly from
God. That is the only way they are kept by faith.

JLB

No, keeping the commands of God by faith means being motivated by faith and trust in God. It doesn't mean hearing God in other than written words and then obeying them.

I'm aware of this distorted understanding of 'doing things by faith'. My roots are in the Word of Faith churches. Doing something by faith can be as simple as doing it simply because of your faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ.

 

[TOG]

The law is not of faith.

According to Paul, the law is holy, righteous and good. So, let me repeat my question. Is holiness, righteousness and goodness "not of faith"?

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

You never explained how it is that Christ died to set us free from a law that we were never under to begin with..

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5

To redeem those who were under the law.

The children of Israel who were under the law.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5

To redeem those who were under the law.

The children of Israel who were under the law.

JLB

This defies the plain fact that the letter explaining the adoption as sons is written to Jew and gentile alike, not just Jews. Paul even being careful to remove any distinction between Jew and gentile concerning this gospel of adoption.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:13-14 NASB)

 

[JLB]

No, keeping the commands of God by faith means being motivated by faith and trust in God. It doesn't mean hearing God in other than written words and then obeying them.

I'm aware of this distorted understanding of 'doing things by faith'. My roots are in the Word of Faith churches. Doing something by faith can be as simple as doing it simply because of your faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ.

Sorry Bro

You just redefined what faith means (Edited, ToS 2.4 unwanted spiritual advice. Obadiah)

Can you just answer a simple question?

Are Christians required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.?

Yes or No.

No explaining and redefining terms and scriptures.

Yes or No.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This defies the plain fact that the letter explaining the adoption as sons is written to Jew and gentile alike, not just Jews. Paul even being careful to remove any distinction between Jew and gentile concerning this gospel of adoption.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:13-14 NASB)

(Edited, ToS 2.4 unwanted spiritual advice, personal insult. Obadiah)

The law has always been temporary.

The righteous requirements of God that were seen in the law are eternal.


JLB