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Is the rapture Biblical?

Is the catching away Biblical, or the Rapture, as it has been translated, Yes, it is.

Gods word tells us it is, and we are to comfort one another with these words, but it seems there are two or more opinions, and that brings me back to ;
What Did God say about it?......

Laying aside our own personal preference , what does the word say......
1Thes. 4:16-17-18- gives us our answer, and vrs. 18 says to comfort one another with these words.

We are not appointed unto Gods wrath.
The Bible tells us that too in 1Thes.5:9 so we need to put all these thing together in simple trust, and know;
That God will not slay the righteous, with the wicked, as Genesis18:23-32 declares.
God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. His heart does not change toward his people.

The Bible also tells us that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against his Church, and in Revelation 13:7 it says;And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to over come them:
and power was given him over all kindreds and tongues ,and nations......These saints, are the tribulation Saints, not the Church.
We are in Heaven with our Lord.........Comfort one another, with these words... :amen
It's Gods word, and his promises. :amen

! Corinthians 1:10 says; Now I beseech ye brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that Ye all speak the same thing, and there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Not each his own judgment, but the truth of God. :study

May Gods truth be opened to us, so these things become solid and like minded in us all.

Keeping us in prayer........
Father forgive, and Give us insight, and understanding of your heart toward us, your Church, your Bride. :amen
 
Aurora said:
These saints, are the tribulation Saints, not the Church.
Click to expand...

???



Aurora; did you even read my post? Everything is precisely documented from God’s Word. Go back and read it thoroughly, paying special attention to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
 
Revelation 20:4-6 "4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

After the 7 years is all is said and done, this is the FIRST resurrection - the dead in Christ.

There's no 2 ways about it - the first resurrection apparently happens at Jesus' 2nd Coming.
 
Osgiliath said:
Aurora said:
These saints, are the tribulation Saints, not the Church.
Click to expand...

???



Aurora; did you even read my post? Everything is precisely documented from God’s Word. Go back and read it thoroughly, paying special attention to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
Click to expand...

Sir, I have been through these scriptures in Daniel, and Revelation, Thes. and others, three + times in the past two years. Line upon line, precept upon precept, and God has promised to those who read, and those who hear, a blessing. Revelation1:3
Blessed be he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein, for the time is at hand.......

Revelation 1:19 gives us an overview of the book of Revelation. It says; Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.
John writes to the 7 churches, which are still today, then in Chapter 4 of Revelation we see John saying After this.....After what he had just finished, his letter to the churches. behold an open door,and a voice as a trumpet saying Come Up Here! and I will show you things which must be hereafter......after what? After the church......From this point on all of Revelation is future, for we, the church are still here.
The next prophetic event is the Come Up Here, the catching away of the church spoken of in 1Thes.4:15-18
All the rest of Revelation happens after the church age.

Today, this very day, we the Church has a promise, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against us.
Is this right in your understanding?
Not that we wont have trials and tribulations from man, we have, and will, but we will not be overcome.
Revelation speaks of the Saints in Chapter 13: being overcome, and Satan in verse 6 of chapter 13 Blaspheming God, and those who dwell in heaven ( Us, the Church) , and it was given unto him to make war with the Saints, and over come them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.......These are tribulation Saints, not the church.

Then here I would add. Love you brother, and that is more important.
Our deliverance from this present evil world is soon, and we will be forever with our Lord, so my heart is to comfort one another with these words, and be at peace,that God has all things in control .
For me, this is an Amen.
God has taken me through these things several times, and my heart is established in His truth, and we all shall see that soon.
God bless :amen
 
aurora, is your basis for Revelation 4:1 talking about a pre-tribulation rapture based on the teaching that the term "church" is no longer used again until chapter 22?
 
BornAgain3 said:
Revelation 20:4-6 "4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

After the 7 years is all is said and done, this is the FIRST resurrection - the dead in Christ.

There's no 2 ways about it - the first resurrection apparently happens at Jesus' 2nd Coming.
Click to expand...

Amen! And this occurs when Jesus returns to fulfill the end time feasts, the fall feasts. Remember when Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts? It triggered the resurrection of the OT saints.

This fulfillment will do likewise.
 
Of course it is Biblical.

Paul, the apostle and teacher to the nations, sets forth the secret catching away of the church/body of Christ:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (sound). For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will all be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." 1 Cor. 15:51-53, NIV, parentheses mine.

"According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
1 Thes. 4:15-17, NIV.

Only Paul reveals this, for the church/body of Christ is a special body with special blessings that God had kept secret for the ages past until revealed to Paul. See Rom.16:25-26; Eph. 3:2-6; Col. 1:25-27.
 
(NOTE: All Scripture should be read prayerfully and meditated upon before one answers or debates these issues. Thank you.)

What is the first resurrection?
When does it take place?
Who will be in the first resurrection?
What is the second resurrection?
When does it take place?
Who will be in the second resurrection?


  • 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

According to the Scriptures, all who are in Christ Jesus will be resurrected in order. Christ is now risen from the dead, and is become the firstfruits of those that slept. Paul wrote this portion of Scripture in the first century after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Notice that at the time of the this writing, Paul uses the past tense verb "slept" when describing Christ Jesus as being the firstfruits of them that "slept". The firstfruits resurrection is prior to the end of the first century!

The next resurrection in the order of things is the resurrection of the dead in Christ which occurs at Christ's coming. This resurrection is called the First Resurrection by the Apostle John in Revelation 20. Notice that those who are the next to be resurrected in the First Resurrection after Jesus Christ's firstfruits resurrection of the first century include those who are beheaded for their witness of Jesus Christ, and for the Word of God having not worshipped the beast, nor the beast's image, nor having received the beast's mark. Those who have a part in the First Resurrection will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Christ Jesus for a thousand years.

  • 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

Remember that Paul told the believers at Corinth that the resurrection after Christ's resurrection would be the resurrection of those that are resurrected at Jesus Christ's coming. Paul also tells the believers at Thessalonica the same thing. Notice that He says that those who are dead in Christ will be resurrected first, after which those believers in Christ who are still alive will be "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." This resurrection is the First resurrection as described in Revelation 20.

  • 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort F11 one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Paul tells the believers at Corinth that in the twinkling of an eye all will be changed whereby the corruptible will put on incorruption, and the mortal will put on immortality. This occurs at the coming of Jesus Christ for His chosen, the elect. (the same Greek word is translated as chosen and elect in the King James Version). Notice that we will not all die who are in Christ, but some of us will remain until His coming at which time the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be resurrected incorruptible, and we who are alive will be changed putting on incorruption and immortality. At this time Death will no longer reign, but will be swallowed up in victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

  • 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

Paul tells the believers at Thessalonica that the day of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him will not occur until after a falling away from sound doctrine of the Word of God, and the antichrist, the abomination of desolation sets himself up as God in the temple of God. Note that this beast will be destroyed at the time of the coming of Jesus Christ.

  • 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9

Go back to the Scripture where Paul tells the believers at Corinth about the order of the resurrections of those who are in Christ Jesus. He states that after the resurrection of the firstfruits of Christ Jesus in the first century, and after the resurrection of the remaining believers in Christ, the end comes; and that is when the kingdom will be delivered to God, the Father, when Jesus has put down all authority and power to the point where even the last enemy of death is destroyed.

  • 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:20-26

Jesus teaches us that His coming to gather together His chosen, His elect, will be after the Great Tribulation when the beast, the son of perdition, the antichrist, the abomination of desolation persecutes those who are the chosen, the elect. (the same Greek word is translated into English as chosen and elect in the King James Version). Some say that Jesus is not speaking to the called out ones, the ekklesia, the church in the Scripture of Matthew 24. It is interesting that even though the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 24 aligns with the teachings of Paul in His letters to the believers at Corinth, and that Jesus told the disciples to go and teach all nations to observe all things that He taught, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that the church is to ignore Matthew 24 as teaching about His coming. It is sad but true that some believe that Jesus is not teaching His church about the time of the end of the world and how the church is to be affected during these times.

  • 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Matthew 24:3-41
 
Bick said:
Of course it is Biblical.

Paul, the apostle and teacher to the nations, sets forth the secret catching away of the church/body of Christ:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (sound). For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will all be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." 1 Cor. 15:51-53, NIV, parentheses mine.

"According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
1 Thes. 4:15-17, NIV.

Only Paul reveals this, for the church/body of Christ is a special body with special blessings that God had kept secret for the ages past until revealed to Paul. See Rom.16:25-26; Eph. 3:2-6; Col. 1:25-27.
Click to expand...

you need to research those words "air" and "clouds" its not refering to air and clouds as when you fly a kite......
 
NIGHTMARE said:
you need to research those words "air" and "clouds" its not refering to air and clouds as when you fly a kite......
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I agree with this statement. The image of "coming on the clouds" has, I suggest, been simply assumed to refer to a descent from heaven to earth. Instead, this image is drawn from Daniel 7 where it denotes an ascent from earth to heaven:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

I do not believe that the Scriptures teach any kind of a rapture event. We need to understand the "son of man coming on the clouds" imagery in its Biblical context. And in Daniel 7, the metaphor is used to describe vindication after suffering, an "upward" movement of exultation.

Jesus - who no doubt knew the book of Daniel - would certainly have used the image appropriately. The mis-use of this metaphor is one of many problems with rapture theology.
 
Solo said:
It is interesting that even though the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 24 aligns with the teachings of Paul in His letters to the believers at Corinth, and that Jesus told the disciples to go and teach all nations to observe all things that He taught, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that the church is to ignore Matthew 24 as teaching about His coming. It is sad but true that some believe that Jesus is not teaching His church about the time of the end of the world and how the church is to be affected during these times.
Click to expand...
This is material I posted in another thread, but it speaks to precisely this issue:

I suggest that Matthew 24 does not deal with the second coming but rather with the events of 70 AD – the fall of Jerusalem. There is a long tradition of Matthew 24 (and its parallels) being read as prophecies about the second coming. However, there is every reason to challenge such an assertion. Consider the opening text of Matthew 24:

Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

In verse 2, Jesus makes a clear allusion to the coming destruction of the temple. The disciples then ask about the timing of this. Note the geographical setting – Jesus is sitting on the Mount of Olives looking across to the Temple mount. Given this location, and the clear reference to the destruction of the temple, it hardly makes sense that Jesus followers would ask him about his second coming. They are instead asking him about when the temple will be destroyed. That is why I suggest that the translation “end of the age†is more appropriate.

One needs to remember the context. Jesus has come to Jerusalem with His followers. What are the followers thinking? They are thinking that Jesus will be installed as King. Despite repeated attempts on the part of Jesus to indicate that He is going there to die, the disciples simply do not seem able to take that on board. Given the inability of the disciples to understand that Jesus has to die, it is hardly likely that they can even get their minds around the matter of a 2nd coming – they have not come to terms with the need for Jesus to die and leave them in the first place. Perhaps some will dispute my claim that the disciples did not understand that Jesus needs to die. Fair enough, but my argument does not depend on this point in order to succeed.

There is still the matter of the “parousia†– the coming of Jesus. An objector to my assertion will n doubt argue that the Matthew 24 material cannot be about the events of 70 AD since we all know that Jesus did not “come to us†in 70 AD. Well, one needs to understand that “parousia†means “presence†– the word in and of itself does not necessitate a reading where Jesus descends to us from the heavens. And the word is often used in relation to the visit of a royal person.

Remember now what the disciples are waiting for. It is that Jesus be enthroned at King. Remember also what has recently happened in the Temple. Jesus has gone in and upset the tables of the vendors. Most people see this as a protest against “commercialization†of the holy temple. Although I will not argue the point here, I believe that Jesus is pronouncing symbolic judgement on the temple, enacting its imminent destruction through the agency of Rome.

Either way, Jesus’ action in the temple would have clear Messianic interpretations for any Jew familiar with the Old Testament and with recent Jewish history. It is specifically the King who is the one who has authority over the temple (think of David ordering the building of the temple and Solomon completing, not to mention other similar figures in the Jewish tradition, such as Simon Ben Kosibar). So when Jesus does His thing in the temple, his disciples will see this as a claim of kingship.

All this works together to help us see that when they ask Jesus about his “coming†(parousia), they are really asking about the time when He will be installed as King – they are not asking Him when He will return to earth in a 2nd coming (they have no concept of a second coming to begin with) And lest there be any misunderstanding, it is clear from the New Testament that Jesus is not waiting to be enthroned at a second coming – He has already been installed 2000 years ago as a sitting King. So my hypothesis about the meaning of the material in Matthew 24 is entirely consistent with the disciples’ question about the parousia – Jesus comes into His Kingship as the old age of the temple passes away.

Much more should be said. Another key argument in support of my hypothesis is the reference to the “son of man coming on the cloud†reference later in the chapter. As you have already acknowledged, this is an image drawn from Daniel 7 which does not refer to a downward descent from heaven to earth (as the 2nd coming hypothesis would require). It is instead an upward movement from earth to heaven followed by enthronement. As should be clear, this is entirely what my hypothesis demands – the son of man coming on the clouds is a reference to enthronement, not a 2nd coming.

And, of course, those who think that Matthew 24 deals with the 2nd coming have to invent fanciful theories to get around the rather obvious implication of this statement by Jesus:

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

It should be obvious that the reading that I am advancing allows us to take Jesus at his word – 70 AD is one generation away. The 2nd coming hypothesis is forced to awkwardly rework the meaning of this statement.
 
Solo said:
(NOTE: All Scripture should be read prayerfully and meditated upon before one answers or debates these issues. Thank you.)

What is the first resurrection?
When does it take place?
Who will be in the first resurrection?
What is the second resurrection?
When does it take place?
Who will be in the second resurrection?


  • 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

According to the Scriptures, all who are in Christ Jesus will be resurrected in order. Christ is now risen from the dead, and is become the firstfruits of those that slept. Paul wrote this portion of Scripture in the first century after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Notice that at the time of the this writing, Paul uses the past tense verb "slept" when describing Christ Jesus as being the firstfruits of them that "slept". The firstfruits resurrection is prior to the end of the first century!

The next resurrection in the order of things is the resurrection of the dead in Christ which occurs at Christ's coming. This resurrection is called the First Resurrection by the Apostle John in Revelation 20. Notice that those who are the next to be resurrected in the First Resurrection after Jesus Christ's firstfruits resurrection of the first century include those who are beheaded for their witness of Jesus Christ, and for the Word of God having not worshipped the beast, nor the beast's image, nor having received the beast's mark. Those who have a part in the First Resurrection will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Christ Jesus for a thousand years.

  • 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

Remember that Paul told the believers at Corinth that the resurrection after Christ's resurrection would be the resurrection of those that are resurrected at Jesus Christ's coming. Paul also tells the believers at Thessalonica the same thing. Notice that He says that those who are dead in Christ will be resurrected first, after which those believers in Christ who are still alive will be "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." This resurrection is the First resurrection as described in Revelation 20.

  • 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort F11 one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Paul tells the believers at Corinth that in the twinkling of an eye all will be changed whereby the corruptible will put on incorruption, and the mortal will put on immortality. This occurs at the coming of Jesus Christ for His chosen, the elect. (the same Greek word is translated as chosen and elect in the King James Version). Notice that we will not all die who are in Christ, but some of us will remain until His coming at which time the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be resurrected incorruptible, and we who are alive will be changed putting on incorruption and immortality. At this time Death will no longer reign, but will be swallowed up in victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

  • 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

Paul tells the believers at Thessalonica that the day of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him will not occur until after a falling away from sound doctrine of the Word of God, and the antichrist, the abomination of desolation sets himself up as God in the temple of God. Note that this beast will be destroyed at the time of the coming of Jesus Christ.

  • 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9

Go back to the Scripture where Paul tells the believers at Corinth about the order of the resurrections of those who are in Christ Jesus. He states that after the resurrection of the firstfruits of Christ Jesus in the first century, and after the resurrection of the remaining believers in Christ, the end comes; and that is when the kingdom will be delivered to God, the Father, when Jesus has put down all authority and power to the point where even the last enemy of death is destroyed.

  • 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:20-26

Jesus teaches us that His coming to gather together His chosen, His elect, will be after the Great Tribulation when the beast, the son of perdition, the antichrist, the abomination of desolation persecutes those who are the chosen, the elect. (the same Greek word is translated into English as chosen and elect in the King James Version). Some say that Jesus is not speaking to the called out ones, the ekklesia, the church in the Scripture of Matthew 24. It is interesting that even though the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 24 aligns with the teachings of Paul in His letters to the believers at Corinth, and that Jesus told the disciples to go and teach all nations to observe all things that He taught, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that the church is to ignore Matthew 24 as teaching about His coming. It is sad but true that some believe that Jesus is not teaching His church about the time of the end of the world and how the church is to be affected during these times.

  • 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Matthew 24:3-41
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Just goiong to answer your questions.....

1) Those that have not followed/whored after the system and worshipped the beast will take part in the first ressurection (elects)

2)The first ressurection takes place at the return of Christ (7th trump) (millenium) (day of the Lord)

3)The elects will be in the first ressurection those that have not followed antichrist.....


4)The second ressurection is for those that followed antichrist after the millenium satan will be released and hopefully those that followed him the first time wont this time.....If they dont follow they will be allowed to take part in the second ressurection.......They will become immortal like the elects...

5)The second ressurection is after the (millenium) (day of the Lord)

6) only those that have been following satan are applyed to the second second ressurection....The elects have already overcame.....
 
Why Do Some Teach that the Church will Endure the Tribulation?

From TRIUMPHANT RETURN
by Grant R. Jeffrey


Several incorrect premises have caused some to reject the pretribulation Rapture and accept the position called the "postribulation Rapture." The first premise is an emotional contention that it would be unfair for the modern Church to escape to heaven scot free to escape the martyrdom that other believers have experienced. While it is easy to understand such an emotion, it would be wrong to deny the doctrine of the pretribulation Rapture on this basis alone. The reality is that while many Christians have endured tremendous persecutions and tribulations, untold millions of believers have lived out their lives in times of peace. Furthermore, all of those Christians who died in either peace or persecution throughout history have already escaped the Great Tribulation.

An underlying attitude of many critics is their inorrect and unscriptural belief that the Church will somehow be purified by enduring the wrath of the Antichrist. However, the Scriptures declare that we are purified solely by the completed work of Christ on the Cross. If the Lord delays His return much longer, the rising tide of persecution of Christians affect the Church across the world. However, this will not constitute the Tribulation period which will be characterized by the wrath of God poured out from heaven on the unrepentant sinners during the final seven years of this age. Some critics have claimed that those who teach the hope of the pretribulation rapture are leaving Christians unprepared for the possibility of the coming persecution of the Tribulation period. However, in thirty-five years of teaching Bible prophecy, I have not witnessed pretribulation Rapture teachers instructing Christians that they are immune from end-time persecution. The prophecy teachers, myself included, who believe God promises that Christians will escape "wrath of God" in the Tribulation often warn believers that persecution is coming, even in North America, if the Lord tarries much longer. However, the postribulation Rapture position can rob the Church of her blessed hope. Jesus promised, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).

The second and more important reason why some are teaching that the Church will be present during this terrible time is the failure to distinguish between God's plan for Israel and His plan for the Church, especially in the prophecy revealed by Christ in Matthew 24. They often acknowledge that there is strong biblical evidence for a pretribulation Rapture; however, they inevitably come back to their interpretation of Matthew 24, which seems to indicate that the Rapture follows the events of the Great Tribulation.

In the passage in Matthew 24, Christ is on the Temple Mount explaining to His Jewish disciples the events that will occur in Israel and in other nations that will lead to the return of Christ as their Jewish Messiah. The disciples' question that Jesus was answering concerned the coming of Israel's long-promised Kingdom, not the coming of Christ for His Church (which they did not even know about). It is easy to forget that, at this point, before the crucifixion of our Lord and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, there was no such thing as a Christian Church. If you had told one of the disciples during the week before Christ's crucifixion that someday there would be an organization based on Christ's teachings, called the Church, and that 99 percent of its members would be uncircumcised Gentiles who would follow neither Jewish law nor offer Temple sacrifices, he would probably have fallen off his chair in shock and disbelief. One of the classic mistakes in interpretation is to take this conversation between Christ and His Jewish disciples concerning the messianic kingdom and read back into it the reality of the Christian Church which did not come into existence until the Jews rejected Christ and God breathed life into His Body of believers.

Since Christ does not mention the Church to His disciples in this conversation, the plain interpretation is that Israel is the primary focus of the Prophecy of Matthew 24. Matthew 24 speaks of the Great Tribulation, and beginning at verse 15, Christ states that the Antichrist will set up the "abomination of desolation" (a supernatural statue of the Antichrist) to be worshiped in the Temple. In verses 40 and 41, Jesus says, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." A vital question for students of the Bible is the identity of these people who "shall be taken." Does this prophecy refer to the Church or does it reveal God's plans for the Tribulation saint who become believers after the Rapture?

This chapter tells us that at the end of the Great Tribulation, God will send His angels and "they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (verse 31). These "elect" are the people who become believers during the Great Tribulation of three and one-half years. This gathering together is not the Rapture. This gathering of Tribulation believers takes place at the end of the Tribulation, whereas the Rapture of the Church occurs sometime prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation when Antichrist sets himself up as "God" in the Temple. Notice that the angels "gather the elect" (verse 31), whereas, at the time of the Rapture, "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:16--17). This gathering of the "elect" Tribulation saints will occur at the conclusion of three and one-half years --- a period of time for which there are the most detailed prophecies found in the Bible.

The Bible describes many Tribulation events that must occur prior to the "gathering" of the Tribulation saints and thus, it cannot be correctly described as "imminent." These facts have caused many scholars to believe that this "gathering" is, therefore, a different event than the "Rapture" of the Church. However, when we turn our attention to the coming of Christ for His Church, we find that there are no warnings or signals given to indicate the time of the Rapture. The Rapture can literally occur at any time.

The third reason postribulationist writers have attacked the pretribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no Church writer or Reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago until it was introduced by John Darby, a Plymouth Brethren. Their argument that no one ever saw this "truth" throughout eighteen hundred years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the pretribulation Rapture. The only problem is that their assertion that no one in the early Church taught the pretribulation Rapture has been found to be incorrect.

Obviously the truth about the time of the Rapture can be found only in Scripture. The Protestant Reformation was based essentially on this return to the authority of the Bible. The Latin phrase sola Scriptura, meaning "Scripture alone" became the rallying cry of the Reformers who ignored centuries of tradition and church councils in their insistence that truth could only be discovered in the Word of God. While the resolution of this issue must be based on our interpretation of Scripture, it is important to answer the errors of our opponents, who disparage "the blessed hope" of the Rapture with misinformation about the modern rediscovery of the truth about the pretribulation Rapture.

A Discovery that the Pretribulation Rapture Was Taught in the Early Church

During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture in the early church.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pretribulation Rapture

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present-day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until I wrote FINAL WARNING in 1995. Some scholars suggested that this manuscript was written several centuries later (5th or 6th century) but definitely before the birth of Islam in 622. However William Bousset, one of the greatest scholars on ancient eschatology, concluded in his book The Antichrist Legend that it was written by Ephraem the Syrian before A.D. 373.1 Andrew R. Anderson wrote in his book Alexander's Gate that he accepted the early date as being valid.2

This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a very clear statement about the pretribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. For additional details read the article Examining an ancient Pre-tribulation Rapture statement on this web site.


[youtube:16f54s46]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPILuXyN_88[/youtube:16f54s46]

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[youtube:16f54s46]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbUR2_PeNo[/youtube:16f54s46]

[youtube:16f54s46]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH63AGBbf8A[/youtube:16f54s46]

[youtube:16f54s46]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbnVPxx9FMk[/youtube:16f54s46]

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nonbelieverforums said:
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If all the christians are raptured,,,, who is going to be doing this??????

9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

SO here we have the elects actually preaching againt the beast system and antichrist......Now would you want to be doing this why would anyone wanna high tail it,,,,,and the rapture doctrine isnt even biblical.....Just a new age doctrine thats turning Christians into wimps,,,just like the world is trying to turn Christ into a wimp......
 
You know I personally have no real rapture view.. but the interesting thing is this. out of every single bible scholar that believes we are living in endtimes, Those who specialise in bible prophecy and are considered experts, I can't find one who is not a pre-triber. They are all pretrib.

Just to name a few from the top. Jeffrey, Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, Mark Hitchock, Joel Rosenberg, David Wilkerson, Chuck Missler etc.. yes these men are of the futurist view. The point is I can't find one expert of this view who is not pre trib. I find it interesting.
 
nonbelieverforums said:
You know I personally have no real rapture view.. but the interesting thing is this. out of every single bible scholar that believes we are living in endtimes, Those who specialise in bible prophecy and are considered experts, I can't find one who is not a pre-triber. They are all pretrib.

Just to name a few from the top. Jeffrey, Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, Mark Hitchock, Joel Rosenberg, David Wilkerson, Chuck Missler etc.. yes these men are of the futurist view. The point is I can't find one expert of this view who is not pre trib. I find it interesting.
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experts,,,them dudes aint no experts,,,,I never heard of these dudes except van impe,,,but I saw him crying on television begging for money...God does not send out beggers,,,,,,many will come in my name remember????????
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Why Do Some Teach that the Church will Endure the Tribulation?
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Perhaps a better question would be, Why do most fancy modern day false teachers teach a totally fabricated Pre-tribulation Rapture?

My answer is Money, yup that's right, it sells books, books filled with lies,
most people don't like the Truth very much, because its just that, the Truth,
The truth can't always be used to paint pretty pictures like lies can,
you see lies can be told in any way that one wants to tell them,
lies can tickle the ears of those who hear them with things like,
oh no need to worry, we wont be here during the tribulation, we'll be long gone on the 7 year (or or 3 and half year or whatever the trend is these days) magic carpet ride untill its over.
but the truth can only be told one way: truthfully, yup that's right, it ain't always pretty, and it ain't very popular, and it don't sell many books, but the truth is always the truth.

where was Stephens pre-tribulation rapture?

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Looks like, no pre-tribulation rapture for Stephen

And what about James? where was His Pre-tribulation rapture?

Act 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
Act 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

Nope, no Pre-tribulation rapture for him either it seems.

And what about the millions upon millions of saints the roman catholic church killed during its 1260 year reign over the kings of the earth? where was their pre-tribulation rapture?

Read Foxes Book Of Martyrs, then ask yourself: where was Their Pre-tribulation rapture?

See, the truth ain't always pretty, truth is, if there were a such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture, then it would have happened before the tribulation of the saints started, this pre-tribulation rapture nonsense is just about the stupidest false doctrine I've ever heard of, how can one after considering all the martyrs over the past 2000 years even entertain such nonsense for even a moment?
It's like looking at a huge pile of dead bodies who were victims of the tribulation and then looking at a friend and saying: boy i sure am glad we're gonna be long gone on the pre-tribulation magic carpet ride before this ever starts happening, lol, how ludicrous, how blind? can't they see the heaping pile of dead bodies? Huston i think we have a problem, lol
 
One can believe God's Word as interpreted by the Holy Spirit, or one can believe God's Word as interpreted by another spirit; take your pick.
 
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