Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

[Mike]

I have a hard time understanding what armchair theologians who are not scholars think they gain by debating topics such as this. Are people simply bored out of their minds?

Runner, I have to say this sounds a bit demeaning. If you're not interested in participating, you could simply post resources as a suggestion and skip the commentary on what people do with their time. To suggest that the participants are engaging out of sheer boredom is a bit unnecessary.

Randy if you're not going to concern yourself with the scripture I asked about or even bring forth scripture of your own, I'm not inclined to go further with you on the topic. No snarkiness intended with this response, brother. I'm just trying to stick with the rules of the A&T and keep our conversation focused.

 

[Jim Parker]

The Trinity isn't a "Catholic" doctrine; it is a Christian doctrine. If anyone can "claim" the doctrine of the Trinity in its original development and formulation at Nicaea, it is the Eastern Orthodox. The Orthodox accept that what it means for the Son to be "begotten" by the Father and the Holy Spirit to "proceed" from the Father is simply a mystery. Scholars have shown convincingly that modern understandings of the Trinity have shifted very far indeed from the original understanding.

Amen

 

[civilwarbuff]

Runner, rather than expecting everyone to read through all these books maybe you could summarize your rea

Amen

Maybe Runner couldl summarize the reasoning for his conclusion based on these books rather than expecting us to read them in such a short time.....I am sure it would stimulate a good debate.....

 

[Jim Parker]

Runner, rather than expecting everyone to read through all these books maybe you could summarize your rea

Maybe Runner couldl summarize the reasoning for his conclusion based on these books rather than expecting us to read them in such a short time.....I am sure it would stimulate a good debate.....

Reading them would stimulate more than good debate. It would stimulate every reader's mind.
Chapter 2 of Orthodox Dogmatic Theology deals with the Trinity. (Fr. Michael Pomanzansky, Translated and edited by Hieromonk Sarafim Rose, St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood.) It's 30 pages.
It may be available on Kindle.

iakov

 

[civilwarbuff]

Reading them would stimulate more than good debate. It would stimulate every reader's mind.
Chapter 2 of Orthodox Dogmatic Theology deals with the Trinity. (Fr. Michael Pomanzansky, Translated and edited by Hieromonk Sarafim Rose, St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood.) It's 30 pages.
It may be available on Kindle.

iakov

I don't believe many of us here have the several days/weeks to spend reading books prior to discussing this......a summary would be helpful........

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't believe many of us here have the several days/weeks to spend reading books prior to discussing this......a summary would be helpful........

It's 30 pages. That's a couple of hours.
Let me review it.
Maybe a "summary" of sorts can be extracted.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It's 30 pages. That's a couple of hours.
Let me review it.
Maybe a "summary" of sorts can be extracted.

You have not read read it?......

 

[GodsGrace]

It's 30 pages. That's a couple of hours.
Let me review it.
Maybe a "summary" of sorts can be extracted.

Hi Jim
The summary would be nice to read if you're willing to post it.
Although, I must say, that no amount of reading has helped me much and I just accept by faith.

And of course the Trinity must be biblical or it would be of no value since there would be 3 gods instead of 1 God, just to answer the OP.

Wondering

 

[Runner]

You have not read read it?......

Yes, I have certainly read the four books I referenced. I don't necessarily have vastly more time to read and study than other people. I make the time. It's a matter of one's priorities. My point was not that everyone should read these books; it was that attempting to improve one's understanding of a doctrine as deep as the Trinity on an Internet discussion forum seems to me a complete waste of time - time that would be better spent with scholars who actually know what they are talking about, if one is sincere about wanting to deepen one's understanding.

What is it you would like me to summarize? The first two books can be summarized as "Yes, the divinity of Christ was recognized from the earliest days of Christianity and was not seen as inconsistent with Jewish monotheism" - but this is scarcely a substitute for reading the scholarly works. The third book begins with a discussion as to how the Trinity has been (mis)interpreted in modern terms, from Barth to liberation theologians and others. It then discusses the historical development of the traditional doctrine (including the various heresies) and, finally, addresses how the modern interpretations have strayed from the traditional doctrine. It would not be easily summarized, at least by me. The last one is simply an outline of Eastern Orthodox theology. I think I'm prohibited by the terms of service from discussing it in any detail, but the Orthodox do regard themselves as the "keepers" of the traditional doctrine (probably rightly so) and it is interesting to see how they view issues such as the Son being "begotten" by the Father and the Spirit "proceeding" from the Father.

Runner, I have to say this sounds a bit demeaning. If you're not interested in participating, you could simply post resources as a suggestion and skip the commentary on what people do with their time. To suggest that the participants are engaging out of sheer boredom is a bit unnecessary.

Fair enough. But the "philosophy" and "culture" of Internet discussion forums has long fascinated me. I think it would be a worthwhile exercise to occasionally ask oneself, "What do I hope to gain by discussing a doctrine like the Trinity at a place like this? Am I just killing time? Just strutting my stuff? Actually hoping I'll learn something worthwhile? Looking for a fight? What?" Considering the complexity of the doctrine and the scholarly resources available, viewing an Internet discussion forum as a worthwhile place to elucidate the Trinity strikes me as sort of wacky. If someone says to me, "Look, pal, I don't have the time or interest for your silly book recommendations. I just like to come here and bounce ideas around" - OK, fine, but it does strike me as an attitude more appropriate for trading pie recipes or dog-grooming tips than discussing whether the Trinity is biblical.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The third book begins with a discussion as to how the Trinity has been (mis)interpreted in modern terms, from Barth to liberation theologians and others. It then discusses the historical development of the traditional doctrine (including the various heresies) and, finally, addresses how the modern interpretations have strayed from the traditional doctrine. It would not be easily summarized, at least by me.

While not asking for a summary of the book that is a good starting point for a discussion, agreed?....I mean, you make a very broad statement....maybe fill it in with some details.....

The last one is simply an outline of Eastern Orthodox theology. I think I'm prohibited by the terms of service from discussing it in any detail, but the Orthodox do regard themselves as the "keepers" of the traditional doctrine (probably rightly so) and it is interesting to see how they view issues such as the Son being "begotten" by the Father and the Spirit "proceeding" from the Father.

You are probaly right about the Orthodox theology part not being allowed (which I personally think should have a place here) but I don't agree with the "keepers" part; Christianity is more than the keeper of "traditional doctrine"....more than the saying of mass.....more than Communion......more than confession......more than going to Church.....it is a way of life.....a way of living....of being.....more than I can express in words......it is living the Word of God......

 

[Runner]

You are probaly right about the Orthodox theology part not being allowed (which I personally think should have a place here) but I don't agree with the "keepers" part; Christianity is more than the keeper of "traditional doctrine"....more than the saying of mass.....more than Communion......more than confession......more than going to Church.....it is a way of life.....a way of living....of being.....more than I can express in words......it is living the Word of God......

Yes, you're absolutely right. But the point the Orthodox would make - and again, I am not Orthodox, although nothing in their theology made my Baptist-trained eyes pop out - is that the way the Apostles, early Church Fathers and early Ecumenical Councils understood a doctrine is probably a good place to start. If you're going to claim the Apostles, Church Fathers and Ecumenical Councils were all wrong, you'd better have some compelling evidence. (In regard to the Trinity, the big bone of contention between the Orthodox and the Catholics was the "filioque (from the Son) clause" - the Orthodox believe the Spirit proceeds "from the Father" while the Catholics and now most Protestants believe the Spirit proceeds "from the Father and the Son.") Certainly, as you say, how one understands the Trinity is not what determines whether one is or is not a good Christian. But the divinity of Jesus and the doctrine of the Trinity are fundamental to Christianity, so having at least some understanding of the Trinity is important, while flatly rejecting it (e.g., the Jehovah's Witnesses) puts you way outside the mainstream (and squarely in the camp of heresies that had been decisively condemned by the Fourth Century or earlier). Reading a few books scarcely makes me a serious "Trinity theologian" either, so I'm going to bow out. I will close with this recommendation - which I have not read, but I can say that I have found the "multi-view" books in the Counterpoints series (and similar ones) to be absolutely invaluable in understanding the various perspectives on major Christian doctrines. I must have at least 20 of these on my Kindle, and they have all been extremely worthwhile.

View attachment 10476

 

[civilwarbuff]

I won't disagree with you; we should not only have a firm grasp of what we as Christians believe but also be able to recognize that which speaks against it and why it is wrong....

 

[JLB]

You can't have both. Is Jesus the Father (thats what you imply as Lord God) or is the Father His God?

Yes, he can it it both.

Jesus is the Lord God, who is coming at the end of the age with the saints.

Unless you have some scripture that teaches it is God the Father who is coming, with the saints at the end of the age, then you must accept that Jesus is the Lord God.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

again

Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
Jude 1:14

• Jesus is not God the Father, but is the Lord God, YHWH, the Creator.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

This is a direct reference to YHWH, the Lord God.

And you forget the Lord your Maker,
Who stretched out the heavens
And laid the foundations of the earth;
You have feared continually every day
Because of the fury of the oppressor,
When he has prepared to destroy.
And where is the fury of the oppressor?
14 The captive exile hastens, that he may be loosed,
That he should not die in the pit,
And that his bread should not fail.
15 But I am the Lord your God,
Who divided the sea whose waves roared—
The Lord of hosts is His name.
16 And I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
That I may plant the heavens,
Lay the foundations of the earth,
And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”
Isaiah 51:13-16

again

“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
Isaiah 48:12-13


JLB

 

[Randy]

Yes, he can it it both.

Jesus is the Lord God, who is coming at the end of the age with the saints.

Unless you have some scripture that teaches it is God the Father who is coming, with the saints at the end of the age, then you must accept that Jesus is the Lord God.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

again

Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
Jude 1:14

• Jesus is not God the Father, but is the Lord God, YHWH, the Creator.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

This is a direct reference to YHWH, the Lord God.

And you forget the Lord your Maker,
Who stretched out the heavens
And laid the foundations of the earth;
You have feared continually every day
Because of the fury of the oppressor,
When he has prepared to destroy.
And where is the fury of the oppressor?
14 The captive exile hastens, that he may be loosed,
That he should not die in the pit,
And that his bread should not fail.
15 But I am the Lord your God,
Who divided the sea whose waves roared—
The Lord of hosts is His name.
16 And I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
That I may plant the heavens,
Lay the foundations of the earth,
And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”
Isaiah 51:13-16

again

“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
Isaiah 48:12-13


JLB

It is well understood that the creation that God the Father, (the one Jesus calls His God), created by His will and at His command was created through His Son. Just as God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son.

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. (Jesus has always been the Son) (Jesus is ALL that the Father is) (All the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him)

The Father is the God of Jesus. His firstborn.

Revelation also states God the Father created all things by His will and at His command.
Paul=>
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jesus=>
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love

Jesus=>
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'

Jesus has always been the Son. He has never been the Father. The Son that was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. The Father was in Him.
Randy

 

[JLB]

It is well understood that the creation that God the Father, (the one Jesus calls His God), created by His will and at His command was created through His Son. Just as God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son.

Jesus created all things.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17


Jesus stretched out the heavens. Jesus laid the foundation of the earth.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10




Jesus is the Lord God.



JLB

 

[Randy]

Jesus created all things.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17


Jesus stretched out the heavens. Jesus laid the foundation of the earth.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10




Jesus is the Lord God.



JLB

Okeydoky

 

[Jim Parker]

You have not read read it?......

I have but, not recently. So I reviewed it last night. I also looked at the trinity section in Orthodox Theology, An Introduction by Vladimir Lossky. SVS Press, 1989
I both cases, Trinity is not something you can summarize "in 25 words or less."
It is challenging reading as would be expected of a description of an aspect of God which is beyond human comprehension.

In Lossky's words, "The triumph of Christian thought is to have elaborated over the first four centuries, and particularly during the fourth, "trinitarian" par excellence, a definition which gave to the heathen an inkling of the fullness of the Trinity: this was not the rationalization of Christianity but the Christianization of reason, a transmuting of philosophy into contemplation, a saturation of thought by a mystery which is not a secret to conceal but an inexhaustible light. This grand work, over which Athanasius of Alexandria, Basil, Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nazianzus, and also Hilary of Poitiers, all collaborated, finally enabled the Church to express, by the term homooiusios, the mystery of divinity at once monad and triad." (p.38)

So, what took four centuries to hammer out and which was completed by four of the greatest minds of Christian thought, seems to me a bit more involved than what can be summarized here. Even the term "homooiusios", the key concept of the doctrine of the Trinity, could not be adequately summarized in a brief statement.

It is the teaching of the Church after much debate and consideration by the leading minds of the early church. To imagine that the average Bible reader is equipped to critique their efforts and their conclusions is, IMO, folly.

My 25 cent summary would look like: The Father is God; the Son is God; the Spirit is God; there is one God. (Would you like fries with that? ) If anyone really wants to delve into the subject then I suggest he look into what Athanasius of Alexandria, Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus and Hilary of Poitiers had to say.


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Free]

My 25 cent summary would look like: The Father is God; the Son is God; the Spirit is God; there is one God.

Agreed. Tthat is what the Bible clearly teaches. The inner workings of the Trinity, how the three can be the one God, is a mystery.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It is the teaching of the Church after much debate and consideration by the leading minds of the early church. To imagine that the average Bible reader is equipped to critique their efforts and their conclusions is, IMO, folly.

My 25 cent summary would look like: The Father is God; the Son is God; the Spirit is God; there is one God. (Would you like fries with that? ) If anyone really wants to delve into the subject then I suggest he look into what Athanasius of Alexandria, Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus and Hilary of Poitiers had to say.

Generally it is not the Trinitarians that start these discussions, it is people who are repeating heresies that they have heard/been taught/or just thought they knew what they were doing. I, for one, don't believe we should let them continue in their lack of accurate information thereby spreading their infections to others. Chances are we won't change their minds but at least if they hear the truth the Holy Spirit can go to work on them....

 

[Jim Parker]

Chances are we won't change their minds but at least if they hear the truth the Holy Spirit can go to work on them....

The Holy Spirit "is a gentleman." He doesn't force anyone to believe what they don't want to believe.
Calvinists refer to that as "limited atonement".
I call it a "cult mentality." They are more dedicated to the false doctrine than to truth. It's usually not their fault.


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.