Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

[Brother Mike]

Agreed. Mankind is in an identity crisis. We need to try to wrap our minds around who we were before the fall...

Which is who we are in Christ Jesus after having been born again. I speak of in the here and now too, on earth as it is in heaven.

Yep, Most believers think we are half a cut above some monkey, ignorant of who they are, or who's image they are made after.

 

[Butch5]

If it's the modalism heresy you previously posted then, no you do not.

I'm not the one who believes in Modalism. I believe that was you.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,
I finished listening to all you sent.
Some truth is there, but here's the problem.
Man has a need to understand everything; this is a good quality and allows us to progress and learn.

The problem begins when we insist on understanding God. I believe God must be accepted more than understood. When we attempt to understand more than has been revealed to us, we tend to simplify biblical concepts. This leads to incorrect ideas that we bring to Our level since that is what we can understand.

Jesus said to baptize in 3 names. He spoke about the Father while Jesus was on earth, He spoke about the Holy Spirit who was to come.

Jesus was Jewish and believed in only One God, not three.

How does one reconcile? We don't . we accept.
I like post no. 281. It explains nothing but it explains everything.

I also believe the early church Father's should receive more respect. They were the closest to the Apostles and those immediately following. We owe our Christian faith to them because they guarded it from many heresies arising out of this need to simplify and understand God.

We cannot understand God. It's above our pay grade.

Wondering

Let me give you some food for thought. You said,

"Jesus said to baptize in 3 names. He spoke about the Father while Jesus was on earth, He spoke about the Holy Spirit who was to come.
Jesus was Jewish and believed in only One God, not three."

Who and how many did Jesus call God?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Let me give you some food for thought. You said,

"Jesus said to baptize in 3 names. He spoke about the Father while Jesus was on earth, He spoke about the Holy Spirit who was to come.
Jesus was Jewish and believed in only One God, not three."

Who and how many did Jesus call God?

If all three are not God, why baptize in the name of all 3? Why not just 1.....or 2?

 

[Butch5]

All earthly analogies fall short, but I'd say the DNA existed, so the new cell proceeds from the original one. That DNA was always there.

That's exactly my point. The essence or substance of the Son was always there because the Father is eternal. The Son was begotten of the Father's own essence.

So, why do you believe Jesus has not been eternally with the Father?

The Nicene Creed holds that the Son was begotten before all ages. If one is begotten they came out of another. The Creed holds that the Son was begotten of the Father. It describes this as "light from light, true God from true God". The Greek word that is translated "from" is "ek". Literally it means to come out of.

I've already said. Alpha = the beginning. Jesus didn't have a beginning. He is the beginning.

He is the beginning of what? Eternity has no beginning. Jesus also said He is the Omega. That is the end. Does Jesus have an end?
I think Alpha and Omega probably refer to creation. Jesus is the first born over all creation. All things were created by Him and through Him and nothing was created apart from Him.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Col. 1:15 NKJ)

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (Heb. 2:10 NKJ)

 

[Brother Mike]

If all three are not God, why baptize in the name of all 3? Why not just 1.....or 2?

The Holy Spirit only testifies of the Lord Jesus. He does not speak of His own, but only that which He hears. You can thank the RCC church for the idea the Holy Spirit would want anyone to baptized in His name.

 

[Butch5]

If all three are not God, why baptize in the name of all 3? Why not just 1.....or 2?

This question goes back to the definition of the word "theos" or God. We need to have a definition of this word before we can all be on the same page. The reason is that there is too much confusion. Is a person talking about God, about Jesus, about the Holy Spirit, about all three? If we define this word I believe a lot of the confusion in the posts would be disappear.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The Holy Spirit only testifies of the Lord Jesus. He does not speak of His own, but only that which He hears. You can thank the RCC church for the idea the Holy Spirit would want anyone to baptized in His name.

This question goes back to the definition of the word "theos" or God. We need to have a definition of this word before we can all be on the same page. The reason is that there is too much confusion. Is a person talking about God, about Jesus, about the Holy Spirit, about all three? If we define this word I believe a lot of the confusion in the posts would be disappear.

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set Barnabas and Saul apart for me to do the work for which I called them."
Act 13:3 Then they fasted and prayed, laid their hands on them, and let them go.
Why would they obey any but God?

 

[Butch5]

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set Barnabas and Saul apart for me to do the work for which I called them."
Act 13:3 Then they fasted and prayed, laid their hands on them, and let them go.
Why would they obey any but God?

We haven't defined the word "theos" or God yet.

 

[Roro1972]

Let me give you some food for thought. You said,

"Jesus said to baptize in 3 names. He spoke about the Father while Jesus was on earth, He spoke about the Holy Spirit who was to come.
Jesus was Jewish and believed in only One God, not three."

Who and how many did Jesus call God?

2

 

[Brother Mike]

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set Barnabas and Saul apart for me to do the work for which I called them."
Act 13:3 Then they fasted and prayed, laid their hands on them, and let them go.
Why would they obey any but God?

The Holy Spirit is not giving the Oder so to speak. You need to learn What Role the Holy Spirit plays in our life.

It's through the Holy Spirit we have Access to God. The Holy Spirit gives back the Message to us.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Holy Spirit does not speak of His own ever. He only speaks to us what He himself Hears from God or the Lord Jesus. I have had the Lord Jesus talk to me through the self same Spirit. The Holy Spirit has to Hear first, and being inside us He gives us that message.

 

[civilwarbuff]

We haven't defined the word "theos" or God yet.

Nice dodge, but try answering the question: Would they obey any but God?

 

[civilwarbuff]

You need to learn What Role the Holy Spirit plays in our life.

Philippians 2
1 Therefore, if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort provided by love, any fellowship in the Spirit, any affection or mercy,
2 complete my joy and be of the same mind, by having the same love, being united in spirit, and having one purpose.
3 Instead of being motivated by selfish ambition or vanity, each of you should, in humility, be moved to treat one another as more important than yourself.
The HS is a person since you can have fellowship with him.....
1 Corinthians 12
11 But one and the same Spirit produces all these results and gives what he wants to each person.
His will is independent of but in union with God....
1 Cronthians 2
10 But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God.
Only God can search the deep things of God....
And there are dozens more. If you don't believe the HS is God that's your business but that is outside Trinitarian belief.
All verses ISV unless otherwise noted.

 

[Brother Mike]

Philippians 2
1 Therefore, if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort provided by love, any fellowship in the Spirit, any affection or mercy,
2 complete my joy and be of the same mind, by having the same love, being united in spirit, and having one purpose.
3 Instead of being motivated by selfish ambition or vanity, each of you should, in humility, be moved to treat one another as more important than yourself.
The HS is a person since you can have fellowship with him.....
1 Corinthians 12
11 But one and the same Spirit produces all these results and gives what he wants to each person.
His will is independent of but in union with God....
1 Cronthians 2
10 But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God.
Only God can search the deep things of God....
And there are dozens more. If you don't believe the HS is God that's your business but that is outside Trinitarian belief.
All verses ISV unless otherwise noted.

No scripture denotes the Holy Spirit is God as in God the Father, the Lord God, or Is the Holy Spirit the Lord Jesus Christ.
God said, "By my Spirit" over and over. The Holy Spirit belongs to God.

It's not also outside the Trinitarian belief, it's outside the modern Roman Catholic belief. I am not Roman Catholic. The Original and One I agree with most is the Nicene Creed of 325ad. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in that Creed as Being God.
Jesus is the Same Substance as His Father, Both God.

I don't believe anything that comes out of Rome, but if you do, then I suggest you believe Scripture instead.

52 Verses mention the Lord God, and the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no illusion there is a Father and A Son, by whom the Father made all things through and because of the Son, made him heir of all things.

We have a mediator between God and Man. One Lord Jesus Christ. If there is just one god after you get done with the Math, you remove the Lord Jesus whom Satan would love you to do and confess there is a Father only, not a Father and Son.

Jesus is not His Father Period. No scripture denotes that, zero. No scripture Smashes them into some one god system by where you end up with one.

Jesus said he is one with the Father and He also said we are one in him, even His own body, but that math don't Make us the Lord God, the Father.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

After it all comes to a end, 1,000 years. Jesus will give the Rule back to our Father. You need two for this to happen.

To believe a doctrine, you must have ZERO contradictions. Indoctrination, and blindness ignores these.

To ignore, is to be deceived. It's hard to find those that believe the Word, all of it.

 

[Randy]

If all three are not God, why baptize in the name of all 3? Why not just 1.....or 2?

Jesus=>Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

All the fullness of God dwells in Jesus. While He is not the Father He is ALL that the Father is. The image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. In that context He/the Son is called Mighty God, prince of peace, everlasting Father.
The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. In that manner they are one.
The how Jesus is mighty God or all that the Father is is not stated in scripture that Jesus always was and always was God. The how is stated Jesus is the firstborn of all creation or every creature and the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. The fullness is from another -self evident that fullness can only be from the one true God. The Father. The Father is indeed Jesus's God. The one who formed Jesus's spirit first. Then was pleased to have all HIS fulness dwell in His firstborn. Then the Father brought the creation into existence through His Son. Jesus truthfully calls the Father His God and our God. Jesus has always been the Son. The Son that was, (His Spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. The Father was still in Him. At His baptism the heavens were opened and the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Holy Spirit without limit came down and remained upon Him. The miracles were performed at Jesus's will by Gods Holy Spirit. Jesus willed and the Spirit acted because God have gave that authority to the Son. To those who are called by God (salvation context) both Jews and gentiles Jesus is the power and wisdom of God.

Jesus the Son has His own spirit. (not Devine) as there is only one God the Father. However as was stated in scripture the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. The spirit was given without limit. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge all the fullness of God.
Jesus=>"Father into your ands I commit my spirit"

Randy

 

[Randy]

No scripture denotes the Holy Spirit is God as in God the Father, the Lord God, or Is the Holy Spirit the Lord Jesus Christ.
God said, "By my Spirit" over and over. The Holy Spirit belongs to God.

Just to be accurate. You may mean this but I want clarity.
The Holy Spirit is God. Its His (the Fathers) "being". God is Spirit. Not some other that belongs to God or was created by God. Just as your spirit is you. Your spirit searches your mind and carries out the will of your mind. (instant process) The Spirit of God knows the mind of the Spirit and carries out the will of that mind. (instant process) Since Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne (all authority) by the will of the mind of the Spirit (The Father) then Jesus wills and the Spirit will act.

God doesn't have to command His own Spirit to act. God thinks and it happens. Its His Spirit.
The Spirit testifies or bears witness from the mind of the Spirit. He speaks/conveys what He hears. They will all be taught by God. Those that listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. And Gods Christ, (Jesus), will raise us up on the last day.
Ref:At the sounding of the 7th trump of God the Kingdom of this world will become the Kingdom Of God and His Christ.
Jesus=>It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So Gods own Spirit is not a separate distinct person from the "Father".
Randy

 

[civilwarbuff]

No scripture denotes the Holy Spirit is God as in God the Father, the Lord God, or Is the Holy Spirit the Lord Jesus Christ.
God said, "By my Spirit" over and over. The Holy Spirit belongs to God.

It's not also outside the Trinitarian belief, it's outside the modern Roman Catholic belief. I am not Roman Catholic. The Original and One I agree with most is the Nicene Creed of 325ad. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in that Creed as Being God.
Jesus is the Same Substance as His Father, Both God.

I don't believe anything that comes out of Rome, but if you do, then I suggest you believe Scripture instead.

52 Verses mention the Lord God, and the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no illusion there is a Father and A Son, by whom the Father made all things through and because of the Son, made him heir of all things.

We have a mediator between God and Man. One Lord Jesus Christ. If there is just one god after you get done with the Math, you remove the Lord Jesus whom Satan would love you to do and confess there is a Father only, not a Father and Son.

Jesus is not His Father Period. No scripture denotes that, zero. No scripture Smashes them into some one god system by where you end up with one.

Jesus said he is one with the Father and He also said we are one in him, even His own body, but that math don't Make us the Lord God, the Father.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

After it all comes to a end, 1,000 years. Jesus will give the Rule back to our Father. You need two for this to happen.

To believe a doctrine, you must have ZERO contradictions. Indoctrination, and blindness ignores these.

To ignore, is to be deceived. It's hard to find those that believe the Word, all of it.

It is nice to see you addressed absolutely nothing of what I posted; must mean there can be no denying that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity and God......

 

[smaller]

The Original and One I agree with most is the Nicene Creed of 325ad. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in that Creed as Being God.
Jesus is the Same Substance as His Father, Both God.

I'd suggest you're presenting a miss reading:

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets."

It may not state "God" but that is beyond any question, inferred.

Part of this problem and the need for clarification is that we know from 1 Peter 1:10-12 that it was the Spirit of Christ who spoke through the prophets. Therefore the Holy Spirit does also come from the Son.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Where the rift came is when the RCC attempted to NOT make a divide between The Holy Spirit and the Son. Legitimately trying to clarify the matter imho. I really don't know why the E.O. took issue with it myself. It's a minor point imho. I wouldn't see any cause to fault the RCC for that addition. But neither am I interested in playing the heresy game over it.

 

[Butch5]

2

Where do you see two?

 

[Butch5]

Nice dodge, but try answering the question: Would they obey any but God?

It's not a dodge. It's called defining the terms. If you'll simply define the word I'll gladly answer your question.

You see, you're asking me to answer the question based on your understanding rather than mine.