IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[JLB]

Could that be talking about Jacobs trouble?


Yes I do want to hear about it brother! I believe that what's been provided by grace, must be received by faith...so perhaps this played a role in it. I read Hebrews 11:35 and it seems unclear to me what they were trying to do? A better resurrection? I don't understand their goal.

Could that be talking about Jacobs trouble?


Yes I do want to hear about it brother! I believe that what's been provided by grace, must be received by faith...so perhaps this played a role in it. I read Hebrews 11:35 and it seems unclear to me what they were trying to do? A better resurrection? I don't understand their goal.

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' Revelation 2:10,26-29

To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Revelation 3:21


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-5

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jacobs Trouble was the Holocaust.

Jacob is a diaspora term used of Israel when they are scattered and not living in the Promised Land.

The language describes the gas Chambers.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not persecution? Scriptures please?

What do you mean by no persecution?

 

[turnorburn]

The great tribulation.. just wanna jump in here for a minute. Is the great tribulation going to kick off with an announcement its going to last x number of years so you'd think there'd be a signpost up ahead.. Or ..has it begun.. Israel is surrounded by its enemies enemy armies.. the stage is set.. Something Jesus said in..

"Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh"

tob

 

[reba]

Jesus does not say " the great tribulation" Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[turnorburn]

sorry reba i should have expanded/expounded that's how things get off track, i was thinking about Matthew 24:21 that great tribulation and it kinda sorta well you know

tob

 

[JLB]

The great trib is said to be...a time of trouble that the world has never seen before, nor ever shall see again. I think that is a very significant statement and deeper than many realize. The world has seen a lot of very atrocious and heinous acts by mankind, but it will not compare to the great trib.

 

[JLB]

360 Posts has anyone posted these scriptures yet..

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

tob

Great Scripture!

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

How can anyone think that seeing the Lord Jesus Christ appear, whereby every eye will see Him, happens before the antichrist does his thing,
.
Who would be deceived into following the false Christ, after having seen the True Messiah.

Every eye will see Him when He appears.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not no persecution, but not persecution. Meaning, my thought was that the holocaust was Christian persecution, and not a prophecy fulfillment. Christians have always been persecuted and especially the Jews. It is written and always will be. Even if Christian may not go through the great trib, we will all still suffer persecution.

Seems like every war is thought to be the end. WWI, WWII, and so forth. I personally do not think that any of that was the fulfillment of any great prophecy, just merely persecution, though the term merely may seem a little...uh insensitive or inappropriate. I think I read that WWII took 1 out of 3 Jews. I believe that the great trib will take 2 out of 3 Jews. I forget exactly what it was that led me to that conclusion, but the conclusion stuck!

The great trib is said to be...a time of trouble that the world has never seen before, nor ever shall see again. I think that is a very significant statement and deeper than many realize. The world has seen a lot of very atrocious and heinous acts by mankind, but it will not compare to the great trib.

5 "For thus says the Lord: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. 8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. Jeremiah 30:5-7

Notice the phrase "his yoke", not their yoke. Hitler

The prophet Jeremiah observing Jewish men, women, and children walking compliantly to their death without attempting escape or retaliation. This was an inconceivable concept in Jeremiah’s day of a strong-willed, self-reliant, and militant people.

Jeremiah was not viewing twentieth century military activity against the State of Israel. Instead, he was looking into the grizzly gas chambers of Auschwitz. He heard the anguished cries and screams of terror at Treblinka. He watched his Diaspora brethren double over in pain as if in childbirth, at Dachau. He saw Jewish faces turn ashen and pale, due to the deadly Zyklon B gas as it filtered through the phony shower heads at Belsen. He saw that few would escape this incredible extermination.

Jeremiah uses the name Jacob (heal catcher) as a prophetic metaphor to represent the Diaspora (dispersed) Jew, as term to describe the proverbial wandering Jew, one living outside the Promised Land.

Today, The Jews are back into the land of Israel. This was not so during the Holocaust.

Jacob spent his last night in the Diaspora wrestling with an angel and prevailed. The angel “knighted” Jacob by changing his name to Israel before he crossed the Jabbok River to his “Promised Land.” (Genesis 32:24-32).

The key to understanding the enigma is to realize that his name was Jacob while he lived as a Diaspora Jew; but it was changed to Israel when he crossed the river to re-enter and settle his “Promised Land.”

Today's Jewish identities are likewise changed to Israel (Israeli) when they immigrate (make aliyah). This name change strongly suggests that “Jacob's trouble” was a foreshadow of the Holocaust struggle that happened to the European Diaspora Jew, prior to his entering the Promised Land. Most Israeli’s also have name changes when they move to Israel.


JLB

 

[reba]

how quickly threads get off track...

 

[Chopper]

JLB, why is it that every once in a while you respond at the end of your posts with a sarcastic remark about my, or Edward's ability to interpret Scripture or "invalid post", things like that. I'm probably not the first to tell you that you are very prideful. God likens pride to witchcraft. I'm assuming that you are a Christian. You come across as being angry that someone believes different that you do. I'm asking you to remember who you might be grieving other than me. From now on, I will only answer your posts that show respect for a fellow Christian and brother. "how can you say that you love God Who you can't see and hate your brother who you can see."

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5

The Church who has gone through the tribulation and has remained faithful to Christ, is in the first Resurrection. That would be those who are Christ's. 1 Corinthians 15:23


Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


JLB

Good morning JLB, I'm going to answer your post in a little while, after I put the Scriptures together.

I am very interested in your theory of end times. You appear to me, as someone who is very aggresive in your belief's. I want to LEARN from you, I don't want a ping pong match with you. I am your student. Teach me your position!

 

[Chopper]

JLB,as you and I enter a teacher/student relationship, I would like to know what school of interpretation you espouse. Historicism, Futurism, Preterism, or Idealism.

 

[JLB]

JLB, why is it that every once in a while you respond at the end of your posts with a sarcastic remark about my, or Edward's ability to interpret Scripture or "invalid post", things like that. I'm probably not the first to tell you that you are very prideful. God likens pride to witchcraft. I'm assuming that you are a Christian. You come across as being angry that someone believes different that you do. I'm asking you to remember who you might be grieving other than me. From now on, I will only answer your posts that show respect for a fellow Christian and brother. "how can you say that you love God Who you can't see and hate your brother who you can see."

Good morning JLB, I'm going to answer your post in a little while, after I put the Scriptures together.

I am very interested in your theory of end times. You appear to me, as someone who is very aggresive in your belief's. I want to LEARN from you, I don't want a ping pong match with you. I am your student. Teach me your position!

Brother,

Please show me the remark that you are referring to, and give me a chance to explain at least, before you label me as such.

I try to only use scripture in my post's.

Just show me what you are referring to and I will change it.

If you knew me in person, you might reconsider your position.


JLB

 

[JLB]

how quickly threads get off track...

Edward and I are discussing a tenet of this doctrine called Jacob's trouble.

I am not trying to derail the thread.

If Chopper wants me to delete the post or any post, I certainly will.

Thanks, JLB

 

[Chopper]

Brother,

Please show me the remark that you are referring to, and give me a chance to explain at least, before you label me as such.

I try to only use scripture in my post's.

Just show me what you are referring to and I will change it.

If you knew me in person, you might reconsider your position.


JLB

I know you are right, I don't know you. Reba says you are a good guy. Without going back over all the posts, the one that upset me was the one that said "invaled post" I thought, well who does he think he is, the absolute authority? And Reba has had to say a few things about how you answer. You have made statements like "your statement doesn't line up with Scripture", Well, the other person thought it did! So making statements like that presents yourself as the authority and every else is wrong. 1 Peter 3:8 gives us a good way of responding to each other. "have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and humble mind". I do like your solid convictions, that speaks volumes about person and your theology. I really don't like a wishy washy person. I just think that if you and I can respect each other in our posts, something good will come from it and we won't grieve the Holy Spirit.

 

[Chopper]

Good morning JLB, I'm going to answer your post in a little while, after I put the Scriptures together.

I am very interested in your theory of end times. You appear to me, as someone who is very aggresive in your belief's. I want to LEARN from you, I don't want a ping pong match with you. I am your student. Teach me your position![/quote]

OK JLB, Here are my scriptures and thinking that you asked for in post #349. I'm messed up on the name resurrection. I thought there were two, but now I see only one.

I've got a problem JLB. I can't, right now, find a scripture that absolutely depicts a pre-trib rapture. The one I thought was the one, 2 Thess. 2:3 I find a problem. It says "the day of the Lord" now that is at the end of the trib. Mark 13:24. Now, I don't know. That phrase, the day of the Lord got me! I've got to learn what is TRUTH.

 

[JLB]

I know you are right, I don't know you. Reba says you are a good guy. Without going back over all the posts, the one that upset me was the one that said "invaled post" I thought, well who does he think he is, the absolute authority? And Reba has had to say a few things about how you answer. You have made statements like "your statement doesn't line up with Scripture", Well, the other person thought it did! So making statements like that presents yourself as the authority and every else is wrong. 1 Peter 3:8 gives us a good way of responding to each other. "have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and humble mind". I do like your solid convictions, that speaks volumes about person and your theology. I really don't like a wishy washy person. I just think that if you and I can respect each other in our posts, something good will come from it and we won't grieve the Holy Spirit.

I will change the way I address you, I do know that I can be direct, however i don't want to offend you, or anyone else.

Maybe I thought I had a little liberty with you as a friend, when I got your "put that in your pipe and smoke it" remark.

I didn't take that as prideful or arrogant, but from one brother to another, just being playful over a very serious subject.

Forgive me Please for any offense.

JLB

 

[JLB]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:4


JLB

 

[Chopper]

I will change the way I address you, I do know that I can be direct, however i don't want to offend you, or anyone else.

Maybe I thought I had a little liberty with you as a friend, when I got your "put that in your pipe and smoke it" remark.

I didn't take that as prideful or arrogant, but from one brother to another, just being playful over a very serious subject.

Forgive me Please for any offense.

JLB

Ok my friend, Lets forgive each other and start fresh. I don't know if you noticed my last post but I'm at a new learning stage. I have gone over the pre-trib references, checked Dr. John MacArthur's commentary on revelation, dealing with that rapture and found that his verses don't really support the pre-trib theology. Now I'm upset! I don't know what to believe my friend. I need some help!!!!

 

[JLB]

Ok my friend, Lets forgive each other and start fresh. I don't know if you noticed my last post but I'm at a new learning stage. I have gone over the pre-trib references, checked Dr. John MacArthur's commentary on revelation, dealing with that rapture and found that his verses don't really support the pre-trib theology. Now I'm upset! I don't know what to believe my friend. I need some help!!!!

Ok. We will walk this thing out together , with input from Edward and Reba.