IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[jasoncran]

Jason you are tops One would think with all the reading you do it would come easy ... Back to topic....

reading and writing are often two different things. many can read well but often if they don't practice good English they loose it.

 

[ezrider]

Chopper, I by no means wish to convey any disrespect toward you, but I really have to wonder if your endeavor here is not just an exercise in vanity; there can be no consensus while everyone continues to insert square blocks into round holes, because no matter how hard you try, it just isn’t going to fit. As I have continued to read through these posts in this thread, there is one thing that is glaringly obvious, and that is that all most all of the scriptures posted have been interpreted from the perspective of the flesh, but how are we to understand these things in the spiritual aspect of a new creation?

There are two phrases from the scriptures that appear to stand out in some respect and are quoted over and over in reference to a rapture, and they are “caught up” and “every eye shall see him”. But these are almost exclusively interpreted from a physical flesh perspective. JLB posts the same scriptures over and over again as if he is saying something new, but is adamant about the fact that every eye shall physically see Christ at the same instant. Again, all about the flesh and nothing to do with the spirit. There are many times at work when I am trying to resolve a problem or figure out a path forward and struggle to find a solution, but then all of a sudden I see it, I see my solution; but it isn’t a physical sight, it is seeing with the minds eye, a perception or understanding. The same way when I get completely absorbed into something and loose track of time, am I not “caught up” in what I’m doing?

Colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.

It does not take faith to physically observe a thing in the flesh, so I ask why is this thread then seeking after things of the flesh and not after the spirit.

1 Cor 2:9-10 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit:for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Again, JLB insists that every eye shall physically behold his return as some great event that appears in the sky; but what saith Jesus?

Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Matt 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed;

If people are waiting on a physical advent where everyone will see him at the same instant, then the mystery of God has not yet happened, for how could Christ be formed in you if he has not yet come?

Colossians 1:26-27 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations:but now hath it been manifested to his saints, to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you.

Ephesians 3:14-19 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

2 Cor 4:6-7 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Colossians 1:9-13 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

Again, just to reiterate it incase it was missed: he has already translated us into the kingdom, so why do you look for another? As the scripture saith, desire that you may be filled with knowledge and spiritual understanding. There is nothing to profit in your endeavor if it only continues to glory in the flesh.

 

[jasoncran]

Just a minute there, I have some for you.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Nahum 1:2
2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lordrevengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There you go brother.

if god is pouring out his wrath then theres no chance of any one who lives when he returns? jesus said if you aren't with him you are against him. all that don't believe will be treated as such."children of wrath", man. women and child who all know what sin and god is and reject them shall die and be damned. do you all really honestly believe that when jesus returns he shall not slay the those that just stood there and didn't kill Christians but didn't believe? no he shall kill them as any sinner would die that death .

now then taking revalation 3 that is quoted in context

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

where is this church today? all of them D E A D.they weren't raptured but died of age, disease, and for the lord. the lord didn't promise us no death from human hands but only by his hands. context, context and context. and don't forget the first audience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!otherwise you have pretext and the bible doesn't support pretexted based doctrines. that is what the cults do!

the Hebrews who believe are the church. unless you can show me where jesus says that this is no longer in effect?

John 4

King James Version (KJV)


When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

4 And he must needs go through Samaria.

5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:

18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?

28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

31 In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.

32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?

34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.

41 And many more believed because of his own word;

42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

43 Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

44 For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country.

45 Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast.

46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.

47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.

48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.

50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.

51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.

52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.

53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

54 This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.

when did JESUS say that this was rescinded that one must once again go to Jerusalem to worship during the feasts?note: a Hebrew could and did worship at home and wherever then and also in the congregation. they didn't have to go the temple/tabernacle all the time to atone for their sins. they did that when commanded to do so in the feasts. the levites lived and ministered in each town.

 

[jasoncran]

What makes you think they wont have bibles here during the great trib? His Word will never pass away brother. It'll be here...

how then does that doctrine not contradict this? no man knoweth the hour? when the trib is taught as seven years? how will they not know they are in the trib? and in the trib what bible verse shall change? ie Corinthians 15 as they will die(they may be saved but the curse isn't removed and will have to changed or die and raised).

 

[jasoncran]

reba, remember when I used to argue as they do against you and hitch?

 

[reba]

This segment of the ToS is very important to me... hopefully none of us are the same as when we first met the Master

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.


Jason this thread needs to stay on topic... you and i are not good at staying on topic....

 

[jasoncran]

ok. I know but every time I challenge them and get the 'looks' as I do in church or by friends who are futurists I think of when I was that way.i can stay on topic.

levites? what are the levites doing in the chialism?

 

[JLB]

Just a minute there, I have some for you.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Nahum 1:2
2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lordrevengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

edited.

edited

God does not appoint us to wrath, and will keep us from the tribulation.

Just as He kept Noah.

Just as in the days of Noah...

edited

Not one scripture that says anything about a pre-trib Rapture.

All will be made alive, at His Coming.

At His Coming, He will destroy the antichrist. By the Brightness of His coming!


JLB

 

[reba]

Lets stop the personal now... Moderator

 

[JLB]

JLB, if the rapture has to happen at His 2nd coming after the tribulation...then all of these scriptures are wrong: Phil 3:20, Titus 2:13, Heb. 9:28, 1 Thess. 1:10, 4:18, 5:6, Rev. 3:20

I will be glad to go over each scripture in this post.

However, when are we going to discuss the six scriptures each side posted andexamine them for all to comment on.

 

[JLB]

I think that is what we are supposed to be doing right now. I responded to the scriptures that you posted and stated that I believe that they are to happen pre trib. Please respond to and address the many scriptures that I have posted.

You have not addressed the scriptures I posted. All you have done is say they are pretrib.

How does the brightness of His Coming ,destroy the antichrist pre trib?

Please answer that.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Oh, only His own will see Him when he comes for His bride. No one knows the hour, the rapture will even take Satan by surprise. The anti-Christ is destroyed later at the so called 2nd coming.

2 Thessalonians 2 is about the Gathering.

The Gathering is AFTER the antichrist is revealed.

Read it.

Sorry your theory is opposed to scripture.

 

[reba]

Closed for a cooling off

 

[reba]

opened

 

[JLB]

Oh, only His own will see Him when he comes for His bride. No one knows the hour, the rapture will even take Satan by surprise. The anti-Christ is destroyed later at the so called 2nd coming.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation Hebrews 9:28

The second Coming is the only Coming of the Lord.

He will Resurrect/Rapture [Gather] us, at His Coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

He will destroy the antichrist, by the brightness of His Coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Every eye will see Him, at His Coming. Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 1:7

Not just His people will see Him, but every eye will see Him!


JLB

 

[reba]

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Antichrist?

 

[JLB]

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Antichrist?

That was the term that was used in an earlier post.

Whatever term that all can identify with as being relevant to the timing of the Lord's return.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Jason give Chopper some time to learn how to read Jasonese ....

Is he speaking in tongues? sorry, I can't interpret.

 

[reba]

Hehe ... given time you will find Jason to be a good man .... Like some others here there is something lacking when he is not posting... he is full of information.
Many times i have said "Splane" and he does...

 

[JLB]

I have a couple questions for you JLB. If the Anti-christ and all the sinners are destroyed upon the Lords Arrival, and all the believers are raptured...who will populate the millennium?

Also, Now I'm not saying that I know what this verse means...it may be relevant, but I wont go there. Instead, I'll just ask you. What do you think these verses mean?

Isaiah 26: 19-21
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain./(KJV)

I have a couple more also which may or may not be relevant. You decide how they fit in and what they mean to you.

Zephaniah 2:3 and Psalm 27:5

I said the antichrist will be destroyed. Whoever else is destroyed is up to the Lord.

Here is what He said, almost in the same breath as after the tribulation...

' 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:31-34,41

The answer to your question is; Those on His right hand.


JLB