Is Tribulation Synonymous with Daniel’s 70th Week?

[David505]

Is “tribulation†synonymous with Daniel’s 70th week (Dan. 9:27)? Although the two terms are commonly employed interchangeably, not everyone agrees. In a controversial 1990 study [1], Marvin J. Rosenthal scrapped the traditional tribulation / 70th week perspective claiming the alleged correspondence is indefensible, and merits no Biblical justification (P.108). Drawing heavy fire from critics, Rosenthal charted a novel roadmap of the 70th week, and redefined the traditional conception of tribulation. According to Rosenthal’s “pre–wrath" thesis, tribulation and the 70th week are not synonymous. Instead, tribulation defines a limited interval, commencing with the “abomination of desolation†(Mat. 24:15; Mar. 13:14), and concluding with our translation (rapture), in advance of the 70th week’s consummation (P.109). An online summary of this opinion by Rich Deem follows [2]. What do you think?

[1] Rosenthal, Marvin. The Pre–Wrath Rapture of the Church. Thomas Nelson. Nashville. 1990.

[2] http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/t ... n3aLl3uaIf

 

[D4Christ]

Rosenthal is correct in most of his assertions. Prewrath is the most accurate view of "rapture" scritpures, imho.

And its not the "tribulation" that is the focus of prewrath because in this world scriptures state we will always have tribulation....it is the great tribulation that Christ speaks about in Matt. 24 that is synonymous with the AOD that Daniel points out. An AOD, which Daniel clearly states begins 3.5 years after the agreement has been confirmed...leaving 3.5 yrs for the AC to rule after his abomination.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Rosenthal did us a service cracking open the most obvious flaws in dispensationalism. However, we need to now completely reassess the 70th week. The next step is to realise that there is no gap between the 69th and 70th. That will be a bigger breakthrough in eschatology than what Rosenthal achieved.

Cyber

 

[lecoop]

I disagree. Rosenthal did have some great points, correctly identifying the raptured church in Rev. 7.

But in general, prewrath theory must totally rearrange the God given chornology of Revelation.

"Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, And will be proven wrong." Lecoop

I believe his biggest error was not recognizing that there are TWO (2) times that the cosmic signs will be seen, once as a sign for the 70th week, and again for the sign of the coming of Our Lord. John records the first of these two, at the 6th seal. But does not show the second one. Trying to make sense of Revelation's chronology without recognizing that these signs are seen twice, is simple impossible, so people find a need to rearrange. The thing is, John wrote, pretty much, in the order things with happen, so there is no need to rearrange.

Coop

 

[D4Christ]

"Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, And will be proven wrong." Lecoop

I believe his biggest error was not recognizing that there are TWO (2) times that the cosmic signs will be seen, once as a sign for the 70th week, and again for the sign of the coming of Our Lord. John records the first of these two, at the 6th seal. But does not show the second one. Trying to make sense of Revelation's chronology without recognizing that these signs are seen twice, is simple impossible, so people find a need to rearrange. The thing is, John wrote, pretty much, in the order things with happen, so there is no need to rearrange.

I respectfully disagree and if I may borrow part of your quote, “Any theory that must make two of any given even is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.†Dee

Some of the biggest errors I see is when, in attempting to make sense of prophecy, some will make the event happen twice, two raptures, two wraths, two restorations of Israel, and now…..two cosmic events.

The day of God's wrath is given a specific name in scriptures...it is called the DOTL. It is a day of gloom and suffering when God’s wrath and anger is poured out on the earth. You would be hard pressed to find a description of the Day of the Lord in scriptures that did not mention the impeding destruction of Jerusalem, as well as the fury God will unleash on Jerusalem’s enemies. Scriptures specifically tell us what events take place during the DOTL, which is marked by one specific cosmic event. This event is expressed in the NT and elaborated on in the OT.

Here's the NT rendition of the cosmic event.

Rev 6

12 I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. 13 Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from a tree shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky was rolled up like a scroll, and all of the mountains and islands were moved from their places.

15 Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us = from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?â€

Let's recap the key events:
-6th seal opened
-great earthquake
-sun became black
-moon became red
-stars fell
-sky rolled back like a scroll
-mountains moved
-people on earth want to be hidden from God and Christ
-people on earth said, "He day of wrath has come."
-who is able to survive?

One interesting note is that in the very next chapter, Rev 7, the 144,000 are sealed and multitudes of people show up before the throne. These people are said to be those who came out of Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24 echoes this same event, with the same details. In Matthew, after the "comic signs" in the sky are seen (the same ones described in Rev 6) the Son of Man is seen by all and the rapture takes place immediately after…just like in Rev 6 and 7.

29 “Immediately after the anguish of those days,
the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And hey will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

Recap:
-sun will be dark
-moon gives no light
-stars fall
-deep mourning
-sign of the Son of Man
-all will see Son of Man
-chosen gathered

In Matt 24 we have the same signs, which we are told happen right after the GT, which concludes with the rapture of the elect. In Rev 7 we are told that the people who show up before the throne have come out of the GT. So is this a coinkidink?

Here is how the OT describes the DOTL and its preceding cosmic event:

Joel 2

1 Sound the alarm in Jerusalem!
Raise the battle cry on my holy mountain!
Let everyone tremble in fear
because the day of the Lord is upon us.
2 It is a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of thick clouds and deep blackness.
...10 The earth quakes as they advance,
and the heavens tremble.
The sun and moon grow dark,
and the stars no longer shine.
...The day of the Lord is an awesome, terrible thing.
Who can possibly survive?
… 31 The sun will become dark,
and the moon will turn blood red
before that great and terrible day of the Lord arrives.

Recap
-day of darkness/deep blackness
-earth quakes
-heavens tremble
-sun/moon grow dark
-stars don’t shine
-DOTL is terrible
-who can survive?

Zephaniah 1

14 “That terrible day of the Lord is near.
Swiftly it comes—
a day of bitter tears,
a day when even strong men will cry out.
15 It will be a day when the Lord’s anger is poured out—
a day of terrible distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness,…

Recap
- DOTL…a day when the Lord’s anger is released
-terrible, distress, anguish, bitter tears
-darkness, gloom
-clouds, blackness

So it it possible that the scriptures speak of this very specific event called the DOTL, in which many of the same specific cosmic elements are reported in each story and yet have this “day†spoken of by OT prophets be completely different than the “day†spoken of by NT prophets. The bible talks about a day of God’s coming anger. A day when, not only Israel will be punished for her disobedience, but a day when God will take vengeance on the world for its disobedience.

The bible states clearly that the day of God’s anger/wrath has arrived after the 6th seal is opened. It’s not really confusing…this day of anger has been prophesied in the OT/NT and is finally here per Rev 6. How can we then justify saying that the day of anger/cosmic event in Rev 6 is somehow different than the day of anger/cosmic event predicted in the OT. The fact that these events take place when the 6th seal is opened is just that…a fact we can choose to ignore or rearrange.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[lecoop]

"Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, And will be proven wrong." Lecoop

I believe his biggest error was not recognizing that there are TWO (2) times that the cosmic signs will be seen, once as a sign for the 70th week, and again for the sign of the coming of Our Lord. John records the first of these two, at the 6th seal. But does not show the second one. Trying to make sense of Revelation's chronology without recognizing that these signs are seen twice, is simple impossible, so people find a need to rearrange. The thing is, John wrote, pretty much, in the order things with happen, so there is no need to rearrange.

I respectfully disagree and if I may borrow part of your quote, “Any theory that must make two of any given even is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.†Dee

Some of the biggest errors I see is when, in attempting to make sense of prophecy, some will make the event happen twice, two raptures, two wraths, two restorations of Israel, and now…..two cosmic events.

The day of God's wrath is given a specific name in scriptures...it is called the DOTL. It is a day of gloom and suffering when God’s wrath and anger is poured out on the earth. You would be hard pressed to find a description of the Day of the Lord in scriptures that did not mention the impeding destruction of Jerusalem, as well as the fury God will unleash on Jerusalem’s enemies. Scriptures specifically tell us what events take place during the DOTL, which is marked by one specific cosmic event. This event is expressed in the NT and elaborated on in the OT.

Here's the NT rendition of the cosmic event.

Rev 6

12 I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. 13 Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from a tree shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky was rolled up like a scroll, and all of the mountains and islands were moved from their places.

15 Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us = from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?â€

Let's recap the key events:
-6th seal opened
-great earthquake
-sun became black
-moon became red
-stars fell
-sky rolled back like a scroll
-mountains moved
-people on earth want to be hidden from God and Christ
-people on earth said, "He day of wrath has come."
-who is able to survive?

One interesting note is that in the very next chapter, Rev 7, the 144,000 are sealed and multitudes of people show up before the throne. These people are said to be those who came out of Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24 echoes this same event, with the same details. In Matthew, after the "comic signs" in the sky are seen (the same ones described in Rev 6) the Son of Man is seen by all and the rapture takes place immediately after…just like in Rev 6 and 7.

[quote:3s075b6j]29 “Immediately after the anguish of those days,
the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And hey will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

Recap:
-sun will be dark
-moon gives no light
-stars fall
-deep mourning
-sign of the Son of Man
-all will see Son of Man
-chosen gathered

In Matt 24 we have the same signs, which we are told happen right after the GT, which concludes with the rapture of the elect. In Rev 7 we are told that the people who show up before the throne have come out of the GT. So is this a coinkidink?

Here is how the OT describes the DOTL and its preceding cosmic event:



Recap
-day of darkness/deep blackness
-earth quakes
-heavens tremble
-sun/moon grow dark
-stars don’t shine
-DOTL is terrible
-who can survive?

Zephaniah 1

14 “That terrible day of the Lord is near.
Swiftly it comes—
a day of bitter tears,
a day when even strong men will cry out.
15 It will be a day when the Lord’s anger is poured out—
a day of terrible distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness,…

Recap
- DOTL…a day when the Lord’s anger is released
-terrible, distress, anguish, bitter tears
-darkness, gloom
-clouds, blackness

So it it possible that the scriptures speak of this very specific event called the DOTL, in which many of the same specific cosmic elements are reported in each story and yet have this “day†spoken of by OT prophets be completely different than the “day†spoken of by NT prophets. The bible talks about a day of God’s coming anger. A day when, not only Israel will be punished for her disobedience, but a day when God will take vengeance on the world for its disobedience.

The bible states clearly that the day of God’s anger/wrath has arrived after the 6th seal is opened. It’s not really confusing…this day of anger has been prophesied in the OT/NT and is finally here per Rev 6. How can we then justify saying that the day of anger/cosmic event in Rev 6 is somehow different than the day of anger/cosmic event predicted in the OT. The fact that these events take place when the 6th seal is opened is just that…a fact we can choose to ignore or rearrange.

Blessings,
Dee[/quote:3s075b6j]


Dee, you should not have doubted what I wrote, for it was not me that said there were two, it was the bible itself. You yourself made TWO quotes: at the 6th seal, and in Matt. 24. Not one, but TWO quotes.

But, indeed, Joel takes all the doubt away.

First, the theme of the chapter:

Joel 2
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness,...

There can be no doubt, this chapter is about "the day of the Lord." But Joel is not done!

11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

And here are the signs of the day of the Lord:

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

So these signs are CLEARLY signs of the "day of the Lord."

But, as I said, there are TWO TIMES these similar signs are shown, and Joel shows us BOTH of them:

The THEME of Joel 3

Joel 3
1For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

The theme of chapter 3 is the battle of Armageddon.

11Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem.; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Here is clearly the SECOND TIME these signs are seen in the sun and moon. Clearly this is AFTER Jesus is back, for He will "utter His voice from Jerusalem."

So Joel shows us the signs for the "day of the Lord" and then the signs for Jesus' return to earth.

There can be NO DOUBT that Joel 2 and Isaiah 2 point straight to the 6th seal for their fulfillment. But there can be little doubt that Joel three is pointing straight to matthew 24:29, the cosmic signs of His return, And then to Rev.19, Jesus' actual return to the battle of ARmageddon.

Therefore,

"Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, And will be proven wrong." Lecoop

We see at the 6th seal, the SIGNS of the day of the Lord, then John shows is the day of the Lord begining with the 7th seal. The entire 70th week is "clearly marked" (God spoke these two words to me) in Revelation. The 7th trumpet is the exact midpoint, and the 7th vial is the end ("...it is done.")

Finally, AFTER the 70th week is finished, Jesus comes back to face the battle of Armageddon.
IF John had shown us the signs of His coming that Jesus mentioned in Matt. 24, they would have been in Rev. 19; but, John did not see them, so did not write them. But, Joel wrote them, so we can be sure they will happen exactly WHEN Jesus said they would.

So where does the Holy Spirit and John put "those days" of "great tribulation?" It is not difficult, of one will refuse to rearrange the book. In Rev 12:6, we see the woman (those living in Judea) fleeing. WHY is she fleeing? Because she has just seen the abomination, and they are doing exactly what Jesus warned them to do! So the abomination MUST have been in chapter 11. In fact it was. Rev. 12 gives us more hints of the days of great tribulation, as Satan is cast out of heaven, and has GREAT WRATH. You will please note, this is in chapter 12, (twelve) NOT 4, or 5, or 6. Finally, John is not even introduced to the one that CAUSES the GT, until chapter 13. Because THE MIDPOINT where the beast will be revealed as the beast, when he does the abomination. "Those days" of great tribulation continue through the book until somewhere in chapter 16, where the vials and plagues SHORTEN "those days." The plagues will make it impossible for the beast [and his armies] to continue to hunt people down, and drag them to the gillotines.

This is JOhn's Chronology. Believe it!

"two raptures, two wraths"

Question: HOW do the 144,000 get into heaven, and around the thone, in chapter 14?
Answer: rapture; they are snatched away, as firstfruits.

Rev 12:12
..for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath...

Question: is this wrath #1, or wrath #2?
Answer: God's wrath beings with the 7th seal, so this is wrath #2.

Clarification point: the DOTL CANNOT begin AT the 6th seal, because Joel says these signs come BEFORE the day of the Lord. That day actually begins with the 7th seal. In fact, BOTH the DOTL and the 70th week begin together at the 7th seal. They run concurrent. THIS is John's chronology.

"These people are said to be those who came out of Great Tribulation. "

Note: every time you see these two words together: "great tribulation" does NOT mean those days following the abomination. They do not have this meaning here, and they do not have that meaning in Rev 2:22. In truth, John has not yet STARTED the 70th week here, much less gotten to the midpoint or the abomination. You are trying to rearrange the book. All John is telling us here, is that at the time of the rapture, there will be great tribulation felt around the world; people will be dying for their testimony. In fact, people are dying for their testimony NOW in many parts of the world. it will get worse.

"In Matthew, after the "comic signs" in the sky are seen (the same ones described in Rev 6) the Son of Man is seen by all and the rapture takes place immediately after…just like in Rev 6 and 7."

Dee, how can you honestly write this? In Revelation, Jesus does not return to earth for the battle, until chapter 19, FAR after chapter 6. In fact, at least 7 years after. But in Matt 24:

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This can ONLY be His coming on the white horse, in Rev. 24.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

If I may, I'd like to clear up a couple of things in the OP.

Rosenthal did not come up with the PreWrath position. That was done by Robert Van Kampen. Van Kampen's book, The Sigh, is much more comprehensive than Marv's book(s).

They went on to show the first half of the 70th. week did not contain any of the great tribulation. They showed in their teachings that the GT started "mid week". They also (correctly) identified Tribulation and wrath as two distinct and separate events.

Now:

Rosenthal did us a service cracking open the most obvious flaws in dispensationalism. However, we need to now completely reassess the 70th week. The next step is to realise that there is no gap between the 69th and 70th. That will be a bigger breakthrough in eschatology than what Rosenthal achieved.

Cyber

I agree 100%! But this is no big breakthrough at all. The sad thing is most the ekklesia lost touch with the older views and with some aspects of Messianic prophecy. Certainly, the Reformers and all historicists realize the 70 weeks were consecutive. :yes

 

[veteran]

David505,

I think his general statement of the later pre-trib tradition being more popular today is an assumption. It depends on who you ask, and what sources one listens to.

The view that we must 'raptured' off this earth in order to not suffer God's wrath upon the wicked is a popular view, even among the post-trib schools. But is that idea actually written how it's popularly held? I don't think so, and I'm likely in the minority view on this point.

Those in Rev.7:9 forward who appear in Heaven to John by vision, why can't that merely be a forward look in time, even after God's wrath poured upon the wicked? Why must that mean those were raptured off the earth while the wicked were left behind on earth? If all those Rev.7:9-17 verses are read together, it's actually showing a forward look into either Christ's Milennium reign or God's Eternity, for "living fountains of waters" are mentioned, and their being given white robes, and no more hunger, thirst, and no more suffering the heat of the sun, etc. Those things are to be established after... Christ's return and gathering of His saints. It links with the time at the start of Rev.20.

The hot fiery furnace Daniel's fellows were cast into, and they were not harmed by it, reveals what picture in relation to God's wrath? Per that example, when the servants of the king of Babylon got near that furnace they were immediately burned up. Is that not a picture that the saints can be right among the wicked who receive God's wrath, and the saints are not even touched? Has God not the power to deliver His own without removing them? That is indeed the picture at the end of Rev.20, with Satan being loosed after Christ's "thousand years" reign, when Satan drives the deceived nations up against the "camp of the saints" which is shown then to be "up on the breadth of the earth". Those wicked are then burned up, while those inside that "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" are not even touched.

In John 5, Christ declares two TYPES of resurrection at the sound of His voice, one for the just, and one for the wicked, revealing BOTH RESURRECTIONS HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME. Christ prayed that The Father would not remove His saints from the earth, but to protect them from the evil (John 17). So why must there be an assumption that He has to remove His saints off the earth when He comes, just because of the "caught up" idea in 1 Thess.4?

What Paul explained in 2 Cor.12 about the one "caught up" to the "third heaven", to "paradise"; how does that event relate to the "caught up" idea he mentioned at Christ's coming in 1 Thess.4?

In the process of God revealing many events that are to happen right after the great tribulation, is it possible man has a problem seeing those events occuring very quickly stacked on top of each other? If one were to describe the operation of just one cycle of a simple four-stroke combustion engine, wouldn't the description take up much more time to explain than a single cycle of the engine?

Christ did give us a definite order of events to follow just prior to His coming. He gave 3 woe periods in association with the last 3 trumpets sounding. So from the 5th trumpet all the way to the 7th trumpet, we're given events at the very end in their proper order. And on the 7th trumpet we are told it is finished (Rev.10:7).

Here's the order I see...

5th trumpet 1st woe period - beginning of the locust army working, deception on the earth starts; time period of sealing God's servants in prep for the tribulation, and Satan sealing his servants along with the deceived in the mark of the beast, which is in the mind (in the forehead) and doing its works (in the right hand).

6th trumpet 2nd woe period - start of the "great tribulation" and persecution of a remnant of saints that wait for Jesus to the death; Satan and his angels loosed upon the earth; many being delivered up for the Faith; false worship setup in Jerusalem over all nations, both inside a temple and outside by deceived Gentiles. Satan ascends from the bottemless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem; God's "two witnesses" lay dead in the street. Great earthquake happens in Jerusalem, a tenth of the city falls. God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem arise, and are resurrected.

7th trumpet 3rd woe - Christ appears in the clouds, all eyes seeing Him; the change at the twinkling of an eye happens, along with the cup of God's wrath poured out upon the wicked; the saints who remain on earth are gathered to Christ in Jerusalem with the asleep saints who return with Him. His "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is setup on earth where Jerusalem is. His "thousand years" reign begins with the nations left dwelling outside the "beloved city", and Satan is locked in the pit for a thousand years.

Milennium - Christ reigns with His saints from Jerusalem in the "beloved city", the city in the land of Israel which Ezekiel saw, along with the River that comes out from the sanctuary to feed other waters upon the earth; all nations are required to go up to Jerusalem to worship The KING. Those nations who refuse receive no rain upon their lands.

 

[lecoop]

David505,

I think his general statement of the later pre-trib tradition being more popular today is an assumption. It depends on who you ask, and what sources one listens to.

The view that we must 'raptured' off this earth in order to not suffer God's wrath upon the wicked is a popular view, even among the post-trib schools. But is that idea actually written how it's popularly held? I don't think so, and I'm likely in the minority view on this point.

Those in Rev.7:9 forward who appear in Heaven to John by vision, why can't that merely be a forward look in time, even after God's wrath poured upon the wicked? Why must that mean those were raptured off the earth while the wicked were left behind on earth? If all those Rev.7:9-17 verses are read together, it's actually showing a forward look into either Christ's Milennium reign or God's Eternity, for "living fountains of waters" are mentioned, and their being given white robes, and no more hunger, thirst, and no more suffering the heat of the sun, etc. Those things are to be established after... Christ's return and gathering of His saints. It links with the time at the start of Rev.20.

The hot fiery furnace Daniel's fellows were cast into, and they were not harmed by it, reveals what picture in relation to God's wrath? Per that example, when the servants of the king of Babylon got near that furnace they were immediately burned up. Is that not a picture that the saints can be right among the wicked who receive God's wrath, and the saints are not even touched? Has God not the power to deliver His own without removing them? That is indeed the picture at the end of Rev.20, with Satan being loosed after Christ's "thousand years" reign, when Satan drives the deceived nations up against the "camp of the saints" which is shown then to be "up on the breadth of the earth". Those wicked are then burned up, while those inside that "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" are not even touched.

In John 5, Christ declares two TYPES of resurrection at the sound of His voice, one for the just, and one for the wicked, revealing BOTH RESURRECTIONS HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME. Christ prayed that The Father would not remove His saints from the earth, but to protect them from the evil (John 17). So why must there be an assumption that He has to remove His saints off the earth when He comes, just because of the "caught up" idea in 1 Thess.4?

What Paul explained in 2 Cor.12 about the one "caught up" to the "third heaven", to "paradise"; how does that event relate to the "caught up" idea he mentioned at Christ's coming in 1 Thess.4?

In the process of God revealing many events that are to happen right after the great tribulation, is it possible man has a problem seeing those events occuring very quickly stacked on top of each other? If one were to describe the operation of just one cycle of a simple four-stroke combustion engine, wouldn't the description take up much more time to explain than a single cycle of the engine?

Christ did give us a definite order of events to follow just prior to His coming. He gave 3 woe periods in association with the last 3 trumpets sounding. So from the 5th trumpet all the way to the 7th trumpet, we're given events at the very end in their proper order. And on the 7th trumpet we are told it is finished (Rev.10:7).

Here's the order I see...

5th trumpet 1st woe period - beginning of the locust army working, deception on the earth starts; time period of sealing God's servants in prep for the tribulation, and Satan sealing his servants along with the deceived in the mark of the beast, which is in the mind (in the forehead) and doing its works (in the right hand).

6th trumpet 2nd woe period - start of the "great tribulation" and persecution of a remnant of saints that wait for Jesus to the death; Satan and his angels loosed upon the earth; many being delivered up for the Faith; false worship setup in Jerusalem over all nations, both inside a temple and outside by deceived Gentiles. Satan ascends from the bottemless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem; God's "two witnesses" lay dead in the street. Great earthquake happens in Jerusalem, a tenth of the city falls. God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem arise, and are resurrected.

7th trumpet 3rd woe - Christ appears in the clouds, all eyes seeing Him; the change at the twinkling of an eye happens, along with the cup of God's wrath poured out upon the wicked; the saints who remain on earth are gathered to Christ in Jerusalem with the asleep saints who return with Him. His "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is setup on earth where Jerusalem is. His "thousand years" reign begins with the nations left dwelling outside the "beloved city", and Satan is locked in the pit for a thousand years.

Milennium - Christ reigns with His saints from Jerusalem in the "beloved city", the city in the land of Israel which Ezekiel saw, along with the River that comes out from the sanctuary to feed other waters upon the earth; all nations are required to go up to Jerusalem to worship The KING. Those nations who refuse receive no rain upon their lands.

That is nothing like John's chronology. Do you suppose people in Judea that see the abomination will wait around to see if what Jesus said was true? Will they wait through all the trumpets? I think not. John shows us their fleeing in 12:6, showing us that the abomination and midpoint of the week JUST happened. Then the wrath of Satan because he is cast down, comes immediately following. John does not get to the beast that causes those days of great tribulation until chapter 13. Therefore it seems to me that you are rushing things.

Coop

 

[NJBeliever]

The real biblical terms are the Day of The Lord and the 70th week.

They are not entirely concurrent. The Day of The Lord Commences at the opening of the 6th Seal. The 70th week most likely starts right after the first trumpet. So they will overlap somewhat. But the 70th week is the 7 year period. NOTHING else in the Bible is given the same time frame. God bless.

 

[veteran]

That is nothing like John's chronology. Do you suppose people in Judea that see the abomination will wait around to see if what Jesus said was true? Will they wait through all the trumpets? I think not. John shows us their fleeing in 12:6, showing us that the abomination and midpoint of the week JUST happened. Then the wrath of Satan because he is cast down, comes immediately following. John does not get to the beast that causes those days of great tribulation until chapter 13. Therefore it seems to me that you are rushing things.

Coop

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

I assume you're trying to add the idea of a false "secret rapture" to this, which is not Biblical, for as those verses show the saints which keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ are still there on earth for the serpent to persecute.

Furthermore, the Rev.11 chapter is covering events of the great tribulation. The tribulation begins when Satan is cast down to the earth with his angels, which is 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing. Christ comes on the 7th trumpet per that Rev.11 chapter. That's TWO chapters prior to Rev.13 by the way.

 

[veteran]

The real biblical terms are the Day of The Lord and the 70th week.

They are not entirely concurrent. The Day of The Lord Commences at the opening of the 6th Seal. The 70th week most likely starts right after the first trumpet. So they will overlap somewhat. But the 70th week is the 7 year period. NOTHING else in the Bible is given the same time frame. God bless.

The last three trumpets are in definite order, simply because our Lord gave three specific woe periods with them. The seven seals don't have those woe periods to set their proper order. So we should study the last three trumpets order and woes to discern the seals order...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The "as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs" idea is very important. An "untimely fig" means an early fig that grows during winter and falls off in the spring. Part of the fig tree parable involves the enemies of Christ who seek to steal His Kingdom. When our Lord Jesus said to pray your flight is not in winter, He was talking about the fig metaphor, seeking to flee early, being like a winter fig. The true harvest time metaphor He gave for the gathering of the saints to Him is for summer. And the stars falling from heaven refers to what? It involves Satan and his host. They represent the "untimely figs" there, being cast out of heaven per Rev.12:7-9 to the earth to cause the great tribulation. That's also 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing per the trumpet events.

Per Acts 2 and Joel, the events of the moon becoming as blood, and the sun black are to happen BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. Is it possible the dragon coming first will cause a great earthquake to happen on the earth to deceive? I think so. But it will not mimic the greatest earthquake that will have every happenned on earth when Christ comes per Rev.16:18.

These next verses are 7th trumpet - 3rd woe timing...

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

Those events are about the vials being poured out upon the wicked.

 

[NJBeliever]

[
The last three trumpets are in definite order, simply because our Lord gave three specific woe periods with them. The seven seals don't have those woe periods to set their proper order. So we should study the last three trumpets order and woes to discern the seals order...

I don't follow what you're saying here. We don't have to "discern the order" in Revelation. It's given to us. 7 Seals, followed by 7 trumpets, followed by 7 vials. The Day of The Lord starts at the opening of the 6th Seal.

Rev 6:12-17 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The "as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs" idea is very important. An "untimely fig" means an early fig that grows during winter and falls off in the spring. Part of the fig tree parable involves the enemies of Christ who seek to steal His Kingdom. When our Lord Jesus said to pray your flight is not in winter, He was talking about the fig metaphor, seeking to flee early, being like a winter fig. The true harvest time metaphor He gave for the gathering of the saints to Him is for summer. And the stars falling from heaven refers to what? It involves Satan and his host. They represent the "untimely figs" there, being cast out of heaven per Rev.12:7-9 to the earth to cause the great tribulation. That's also 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing per the trumpet events.

I respectfully disagree. The bible is completely self-confirming. So we should be able to find earlier reference to everything that happens in revelation. This passage is confirmed and paralleled by Isaiah 34:

1Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

This seems to clearly be discussing the Day of The Lord and we see the exact symbology of the fig falling from the fig tree. This is exactly what is taking place at the 6th Seal. John's Revelation is confirming what Isaiah prophesied. That the Day of The Lord has begun. There is nothing in there about Satan and his angels, demons, etc.

Per Acts 2 and Joel, the events of the moon becoming as blood, and the sun black are to happen BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. Is it possible the dragon coming first will cause a great earthquake to happen on the earth to deceive? I think so. But it will not mimic the greatest earthquake that will have every happenned on earth when Christ comes per Rev.16:18.

Rev 6 makes it clear people are NOT deceived. All of the rich, famous and fabulous people on the planet know that God Himself and Jesus are making the 6th seal events happen. And they are literally heading for the hills.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

Those events are about the vials being poured out upon the wicked.

I know many events in Revelation seem similar (sun blacking out, earthquakes etc.). but Similarity is not Sameness. The 7th Seal is what leads to the first trumpet. So there is no overlapping of trumpets and seals. They are in sequential order. None of the angels carrying trumpets come out until after the silence of the 7th Seal. In fact they are not even given the trumpets until after the 7th seal is opened. So it can't be happening at the same time. God bless.

 

[veteran]

That is nothing like John's chronology. Do you suppose people in Judea that see the abomination will wait around to see if what Jesus said was true? Will they wait through all the trumpets? I think not. John shows us their fleeing in 12:6, showing us that the abomination and midpoint of the week JUST happened. Then the wrath of Satan because he is cast down, comes immediately following. John does not get to the beast that causes those days of great tribulation until chapter 13. Therefore it seems to me that you are rushing things.

Coop

If you read all... of Rev.12 to the end, you'll notice the dragon sends a flood out of his mouth after the woman, which is the remnant of God's people who keep the commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. It means the saints are still on earth to go through that. In Rev.14:12-13, the saints are STILL on the earth. In Rev.11 the "two candlesticks" symbol associated with God's "two witnesses" represent Churches, since our Lord Jesus said the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches at the end of Rev.1. In Rev.11 at the end of the 2nd woe-6th trumpet, a great earthquake happens and the "remnant" are frightened and give glory to God. Then on the 3rd woe-7th trumpet the events of Christ's coming and His wrath poured out upon the wicked are given.

So even PRIOR to Rev.13, events of Christ's coming and God's wrath are given. That should point out to you that trying to approach study of Revelation how man expects everything to flow chronologically from chapter to chapter won't work. We must interpret the events given John throughout all the Book first, and then note any special time alignment Christ gave in them, like the 3 woe periods linked with the last 3 trumpets. And then the proper order of Revelation events will begin to make sense.

 

[veteran]

I don't follow what you're saying here. We don't have to "discern the order" in Revelation. It's given to us. 7 Seals, followed by 7 trumpets, followed by 7 vials. The Day of The Lord starts at the opening of the 6th Seal.

So you're not familiar with the 3 woe periods tied to the last three trumpets, I assume.

I respectfully disagree. The bible is completely self-confirming. So we should be able to find earlier reference to everything that happens in revelation. This passage is confirmed and paralleled by Isaiah 34:

1Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

This seems to clearly be discussing the Day of The Lord and we see the exact symbology of the fig falling from the fig tree. This is exactly what is taking place at the 6th Seal. John's Revelation is confirming what Isaiah prophesied. That the Day of The Lord has begun. There is nothing in there about Satan and his angels, demons, etc.

The untimely figs and stars falling are important metaphors Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, which I assume you're not familiar with either. Nor does it appear you're familiar with the Rev.12:7-9 event of the war in Heaven when Satan and his angels are cast down to the earth by Michael and his angels, and it's link to the Daniel 12:1 prophecy when Michael stands up, and a time of trouble begins on earth the likes that has never been. After Satan and his angels are cast to the earth, they go after the remnant of saints on earth that keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Seems you've missed all that too.

Rev 6 makes it clear people are NOT deceived. All of the rich, famous and fabulous people on the planet know that God Himself and Jesus are making the 6th seal events happen. And they are literally heading for the hills.

You're joking, right? Christ's very first warning in Matt.24 is to not allow any man to deceive us. And He says many will come saying they are Christ and deceive many. He even shows a pseudo Christ ("false Christs" is 'pseudochristos' in the Greek) will come and almost deceive His elect. Looks like you're not familiar with those Scriptures either.

I know many events in Revelation seem similar (sun blacking out, earthquakes etc.). but Similarity is not Sameness. The 7th Seal is what leads to the first trumpet. So there is no overlapping of trumpets and seals. They are in sequential order. None of the angels carrying trumpets come out until after the silence of the 7th Seal. In fact they are not even given the trumpets until after the 7th seal is opened. So it can't be happening at the same time. God bless.

There's a "great earthquake" in Jerusalem to end the 2nd woe-6th trumpet, with Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet per Rev.11:13 forward. There's a "great earthquake" with Christ coming in Rev.16:18 when the 7th vial is poured out. So when does that "great earthquake" happen, at the end of the 6th trumpet or on the 7th vial?

Rev 9:1-3
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(KJV)

How is it that event of a star falling from heaven (meaning an angel), is given on the 5th trumpet to open the pit for the locust army to come upon the earth, when Rev.6 shows that stars falling kind of event on the 6th seal, which also has events for the very end?

 

[NJBeliever]

So let me guess Veteran, in this thread you believe in Daniel's 70th week?? But yet, we still don't know when Christ is coming right? lol.

 

[lecoop]

That is nothing like John's chronology. Do you suppose people in Judea that see the abomination will wait around to see if what Jesus said was true? Will they wait through all the trumpets? I think not. John shows us their fleeing in 12:6, showing us that the abomination and midpoint of the week JUST happened. Then the wrath of Satan because he is cast down, comes immediately following. John does not get to the beast that causes those days of great tribulation until chapter 13. Therefore it seems to me that you are rushing things.

Coop

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

I assume you're trying to add the idea of a false "secret rapture" to this, which is not Biblical, for as those verses show the saints which keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ are still there on earth for the serpent to persecute.

How can you say the rapture is not biblical? Ah!! You are saying that there IS a rapture, but it is NOT a secret? Of course it is not a secret, for all pretrib's know it and believe it. The truth is, the Holy Spirit and John believed it to, for John wrote of it in Rev. 7, BEFORE the 70th week even begins. The great crowd, to large to number IS the raptured church, seen in heaven - shortly after the rapture. What you fail to recognize, is that as soon as the rapture takes the church off the planet, there is a NEW group of believers. Millions that are left behind, realize their mistake, and turn to God. And they are "saints." Just not the church that was snatched away.

Furthermore, the Rev.11 chapter is covering events of the great tribulation. The tribulation begins when Satan is cast down to the earth with his angels, which is 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing. Christ comes on the 7th trumpet per that Rev.11 chapter. That's TWO chapters prior to Rev.13 by the way.

You seem confused here: "chapter 11 is coverning events of the great tribulation," but it begins in chapter 12? oh. Really? The abomination happens in chapter 11, as seen by the woman fleeing in 12:6. Satan IS cast out in chapter 12, NOT at the 6th trumpet. He cannot be cast down, until the 7th trumpet has sounded.

It will take a while to get the image set up, and the mark set up, so that the great killing frenzy can begin. All this probably won't get started until chapter 15 or 16. You see, chapter 14 must still be before the mark, because the angel warns of taking the mark. So I STILL say you are rushing things.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I don't follow what you're saying here. We don't have to "discern the order" in Revelation. It's given to us. 7 Seals, followed by 7 trumpets, followed by 7 vials. The Day of The Lord starts at the opening of the 6th Seal.

So you're not familiar with the 3 woe periods tied to the last three trumpets, I assume.

I respectfully disagree. The bible is completely self-confirming. So we should be able to find earlier reference to everything that happens in revelation. This passage is confirmed and paralleled by Isaiah 34:

1Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

This seems to clearly be discussing the Day of The Lord and we see the exact symbology of the fig falling from the fig tree. This is exactly what is taking place at the 6th Seal. John's Revelation is confirming what Isaiah prophesied. That the Day of The Lord has begun. There is nothing in there about Satan and his angels, demons, etc.

The untimely figs and stars falling are important metaphors Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, which I assume you're not familiar with either. Nor does it appear you're familiar with the Rev.12:7-9 event of the war in Heaven when Satan and his angels are cast down to the earth by Michael and his angels, and it's link to the Daniel 12:1 prophecy when Michael stands up, and a time of trouble begins on earth the likes that has never been. After Satan and his angels are cast to the earth, they go after the remnant of saints on earth that keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Seems you've missed all that too.

Rev 6 makes it clear people are NOT deceived. All of the rich, famous and fabulous people on the planet know that God Himself and Jesus are making the 6th seal events happen. And they are literally heading for the hills.

You're joking, right? Christ's very first warning in Matt.24 is to not allow any man to deceive us. And He says many will come saying they are Christ and deceive many. He even shows a pseudo Christ ("false Christs" is 'pseudochristos' in the Greek) will come and almost deceive His elect. Looks like you're not familiar with those Scriptures either.

I know many events in Revelation seem similar (sun blacking out, earthquakes etc.). but Similarity is not Sameness. The 7th Seal is what leads to the first trumpet. So there is no overlapping of trumpets and seals. They are in sequential order. None of the angels carrying trumpets come out until after the silence of the 7th Seal. In fact they are not even given the trumpets until after the 7th seal is opened. So it can't be happening at the same time. God bless.

There's a "great earthquake" in Jerusalem to end the 2nd woe-6th trumpet, with Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet per Rev.11:13 forward. There's a "great earthquake" with Christ coming in Rev.16:18 when the 7th vial is poured out. So when does that "great earthquake" happen, at the end of the 6th trumpet or on the 7th vial?

Rev 9:1-3
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(KJV)

How is it that event of a star falling from heaven (meaning an angel), is given on the 5th trumpet to open the pit for the locust army to come upon the earth, when Rev.6 shows that stars falling kind of event on the 6th seal, which also has events for the very end?

Veteran, I believe you are mistaken about the earthquakes.

John is introduced to the two witnessed, and He in turn introduces them to us, JUST BEFORE the abomination (I believe exactly 3 1/2 days before), which divides the week into two halves. We see that here:

Rev 11
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The next verse, however starts a parenthesis:

(4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
...
...
...
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)

You see, once God introduces them to John, JUST BEFORE the exact midpoint of the week, then God takes John through their 1260 days, right up to when they are resurrected, as a parenthesis. In other words, the parenthesis is NOT RELATED to TIMING. At verse 3, as they are introduced, John is at the midpoint. A parenthesis has no timeing. So the moment John finishs with them, and writes that two woes are over, and the third one comes quickly, HE IS RIGHT BACK AT THE MIDPOINT OF THE WEEK.

They lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and are resurrcted right at the 7th vail. So the earthquake at their resurrection is the SAME earthquake at the 7th vial.

COOP

 

[NJBeliever]

Veteran, I believe you are mistaken about the earthquakes.

John is introduced to the two witnessed, and He in turn introduces them to us, JUST BEFORE the abomination (I believe exactly 3 1/2 days before), which divides the week into two halves. We see that here:

Rev 11
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The next verse, however starts a parenthesis:

(4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
...
...
...
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)

You see, once God introduces them to John, JUST BEFORE the exact midpoint of the week, then God takes John through their 1260 days, right up to when they are resurrected, as a parenthesis. In other words, the parenthesis is NOT RELATED to TIMING. At verse 3, as they are introduced, John is at the midpoint. A parenthesis has no timeing. So the moment John finishs with them, and writes that two woes are over, and the third one comes quickly, HE IS RIGHT BACK AT THE MIDPOINT OF THE WEEK.

They lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and are resurrcted right at the 7th vail. So the earthquake at their resurrection is the SAME earthquake at the 7th vial.

COOP

Actually they are resurrected at the 6th trumpet. We know this because right after they are resurrected, it says "the second woe has past." The Second woe is the 6th trumpet.

But you are definitely correct in understanding that their death is the midpoint of the 70th week (and the 6th trumpet is 3 1/2 days later). So once again, it's obvious that the 7th trumpet is not the end of the 70th week, nor the timing of Christ's Second Coming to Earth.

 

[lecoop]

Veteran, I believe you are mistaken about the earthquakes.

John is introduced to the two witnessed, and He in turn introduces them to us, JUST BEFORE the abomination (I believe exactly 3 1/2 days before), which divides the week into two halves. We see that here:

Rev 11
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The next verse, however starts a parenthesis:

(4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
...
...
...
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)

You see, once God introduces them to John, JUST BEFORE the exact midpoint of the week, then God takes John through their 1260 days, right up to when they are resurrected, as a parenthesis. In other words, the parenthesis is NOT RELATED to TIMING. At verse 3, as they are introduced, John is at the midpoint. A parenthesis has no timeing. So the moment John finishs with them, and writes that two woes are over, and the third one comes quickly, HE IS RIGHT BACK AT THE MIDPOINT OF THE WEEK.

They lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and are resurrcted right at the 7th vail. So the earthquake at their resurrection is the SAME earthquake at the 7th vial.

COOP

Actually they are resurrected at the 6th trumpet. We know this because right after they are resurrected, it says "the second woe has past." The Second woe is the 6th trumpet.

But you are definitely correct in understanding that their death is the midpoint of the 70th week (and the 6th trumpet is 3 1/2 days later). So once again, it's obvious that the 7th trumpet is not the end of the 70th week, nor the timing of Christ's Second Coming to Earth.

NJ, I don't think you understood anything I wrote. The 70th week is "marked" by sevens: the 7th seal begins it, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial closes it.

But, we are speaking of MIDPOINT events. Except for parenthesis, John is at or very near the midpoint of the week, all the way from chapter 11 to chapter 14. SO, chapter 11 IS a midpoint chapter.

Proofs? Does not Daniel tell us that the abomination will split the week in half?
Does not Jesus warn people to FLEE the moment they see the abomination?
Do we not read in 12:6 that the woman (those living in Judea) is FLEEing? WHY is she fleeing? Because she has just seen the abomination. Therefore, the exact midpoint, AND the abomination are in chapter 11.

Next, lets speak of the "law of introduction." You see, all through Revelation, JOhn is introduced to beings and events in the heavenly vision, AT THE TIME THEY HAPPEN. WHEN is John introduced to the two witnesses? Of course, right at the midpoint. Therefore, they are introduced RIGHT WHEN THEY SHOW UP, NOT 1260 days later.

Next, look at the verbs:
"I will give power unto my two witnesses...
"they shall prophesy..."

Note that these are FUTURE tense verbs; VERY noteworthy, since almost all other verbs in this book are past tense verbs.

Therefore, there can be no doubt, these two witnesses WILL SHOW UP just before the exact midpoint - - in fact, 3 1/2 days before the abmination. Then, they testify for 1260 days, and are killed. They lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and are resurrected AT THE SAME TIME AS THE 7TH VIAL, WHICH ENDS THE 70TH WEEK.

Therefore, all but the FIRST VERSE of the two witnesses is a PARENTHESIS that has NO timing.

Rev 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(...) parenthesis
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded;

THIS is John's chronology. The 7th trumpet MARKS the exact midpoint.

Their death is NOT at the midpoint - it is at the end of the week.
They SHOW UP at the midpoint.

"the second woe has past" follows chronologically after verse 3: "And I will give power unto my two witnesses"

Once more, the 7th trumpet MARKS the exact midpoint.

Coop