Is Tribulation Synonymous with Daniel’s 70th Week?

[lecoop]

Like I said Coop, your stuck in a chronology that you have no clue about. What's worse you have no intention on getting yourself unstuck. You are dealing with sacred texts and you behave like a man who stands on hallowed ground and refuses to remove his shoes.
If you really want answers I suggest you strip naked throw ashes on your head stick your nose to the floor and get far more humble.
This is the testimony of Jesus Christ God Almighty and I not pretend any man has the right to treat it any other way than utterly HOLY.
Your pride stands out to the point that you make a hypocrite of yourself when you claim that "Other people" in this forum are all about voicing their theories; that's describes you to the "T".

I'll say this again, these are sacred texts that happen to be the Testimony of Jesus Christ and the plan of His salvation, which happens to bring every soul into the picture. Be careful how you treat this, and more importantly, how you treat your fellow man.

Dear Andrew, there is a difference in knowing the truth, and being proud. I am not proud, I just know the truth. One can have the one without the other. Why do you say I have no clue? Because I disagree with you?

OF COURSE they are sacred texts. That is why I don't think ANYONE has the right to rearrange them. But I find SO MUCH rearranging going on. Andrew, I have met VERY FEW on any forum that does not think they have the corner on truth. But they all want to rearrange the book. TRuth, will NEVER need to rearrange the book of Revelation. There is much in Revelation I don't know. But what I do know I know. It was Holy Ghost taught. So, instead of talking about me, challenge my "theories." Isn't that what forums are all about? Maybe, just maybe, you will find that you must change your theories. If I give opinions without backing it up by scripture, then you will have a legitimate complaint. If I take a scripture out of context, then you will have a legitimate complaint.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Concerning chapter 12:
So if, as you say, the 3 1/2 year period of time is THE SAME as the 1260 day time, then you clearly understand that verse 7 is NOT 1260 days after verse 6. Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 7 is on the FIRST day of the 1260, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 1260 days between these verses.

I can guess then, that you clearly understand that verse 15 is NOT 3 1/2 years AFTER verse 14. Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 15 is on the FIRST day of the 3 1/2 years, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 3 1/2 years between these verses.

Can I get a clarification from you on these? Do you agree?

And again I can guess that you do NOT believe that 13:6 is 42 months AFTER 13:5. Right?
Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 15 is on the FIRST day of the 42 months, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 42 months between these verses. Agreed?

You understand that this time frame is written, but NOT CARRIED THROUGH to fulfillment between these verses.
So in EVERY case, in chapters 12 and 13, the verse AFTER the 3 1/2 year time frame (or 1260 days or 42 months) does NOT chronologically follow that time frame. So when John mentions a time frame such as 1260 days or 42 months, he mentions them at the proper place in his narrative WHERE THEY ARE TO START. And certainly NOT where they end.

But, you insist that the verses following the 1260 days of the two witnesses,

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
15 Then the seventh angel sounded:

ARE chronologically 1260 days after verse 3. So, again I wonder WHY you are not consistant?

The truth is, The sounding of the 7th trumpet happens right after the BEGINNING of the 1260 days, NOT THE END. It is to be understood exactly the same as ALL OTHER mentions of the 3 1/2 years.

My last three posts have been solely to get you to see this point.

So verses 4-13 in chapter 11, HAVE NO CHRONOLOGY. They are there ONLY for information. The 1260 days are there ONLY for information. They are NOT Fulfilled in this chapter. Indeed, they are not fullfilled unto ALL the other mentions of the 3 1/2 years are fulfilled, which is at the 7th vial. That is the end of the week, and that is where ALL these parallel passages of time END.

Your chronology is impossible to understand, and is far removed from the flow of events as given Revelation.

In all cases in Revelation of the periods of 42 months, 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years, they ALL parallel each other, which you agreed. YET, they ALL BEGIN at the middle of Daniel's "one week", meaning, they are ALL about the LAST HALF of the tribulation timing. It is the 3 WOE periods tied to the LAST THREE TRUMPETS which set that order of events.

On the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to give a witness for 1260 days (Rev.11:3). That is ALSO the timing the Gentiles are given to tread the court without the temple, and the holy city, but given in months (42 months per Rev.11:2)

That 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is ALSO when Satan is cast down to the earth, and BEGINS the 3 and 1/2 years of the "woman" being protected by God from the flood out of his mouth (Rev.12:14 and Rev.12:6). What is that "flood" out of the dragon's mouth? It's lies, and the detail is given in Rev.9. It is ON that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period that the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (i.e., Satan, the dragon) will kill God's two witnesses after they finish their 1260 days testimony, leaving their dead bodies lay in the street for 3 and 1/2 days. ALL that is 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing.

Then 3 and 1/2 days after the two witnesses are killed, the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period begins with Christ's coming and He ends it all. Rev.13 is a greater detail description of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period's events. In Rev.13:5, power is given for the dragon to work for 42 months on earth, the SAME timing as the 1260 days of God's two witnesses, and the SAME timing as the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the court outside the temple and the holy city. ALL that is LAST HALF tribulation timing.

There is only ONE tribulation written for the end per God's Word, NOT TWO. That can easily be discovered within Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The first half of the tribulation will be about the re-establishing of Old Covenant worship in Jerusalem by the orthodox Jews who are prepared to build another temple there. That's when the "vile person" will make the "league", i.e., the peace pact in Jerusalem which the majority of Christian scholars have been looking for as the start of the "one week" (7 years). In the middle of Daniel's "one week", that Old Covenant style worship is ended with "the abomination that maketh desolate" being placed instead. And that's the midpoint, and the 1260 days, 42 months, 3 and 1/2 years countdown of the last half of the "one week" then BEGINS.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, you certainly have a HARD TIME understanding what I write. Is my writing really that confusing?

Surely you DO NOT BELIEVE that all humans on earth will go UP in the rapture - DO YOU?
So if all humans do NOT go up, the it MUST BE that some humans are LEFT BEHIND.

Surely that is not a hard concept to follow. I do believe that the rapture will be PRE trib. I an convinced that both John and the Holy Spirit believe it too. So my point is, SOME of those NON-born again people that were left behind (BECAUSE they were not born again) turn to God and become Christians AFTER the rapture (pretrib) had taken place. They are STILL a part of the body of Christ. But they are only a remnant of that body, because the MAIN LOAD left before the week started. WHY did they leave before the week started? Because they had NO appointment with God's wrath, and God's wrath is seen at the very beginning of the week.

I'm not confused as to the event order our Lord Jesus gave, because there is no Scripture evidence of a Pre-Trib "secret rapture". I don't care about the doctrines of men, no matter how soft and pleasant to the ears their doctrines may sound. There is NO Scripture evidence for SOME of Christ's Church being gathered while SOME others are "Left-behind". Furthermore, our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:29 that the resurrection of the just, and of the unjust, BOTH happen at the same time. So what does that reveal about men's doctrines that say some are whisked away while others are left behind?

It's specifically, the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine of men that is confusing your understanding of the order of events our Lord Jesus gave in His Book of Revelation. That doctrine never was taught in the early Church, and only began in 1830's Great Britain with a small group. So for 1,800 years, none of the Church had that doctrine. At some point in this century, the word "secret" which John Darby in 1830's Britain coined in the phrase "secret rapture", was dropped off, and the Pre-Trib school began simply calling it "the rapture". It became very clear to many being taught that false doctrine that Christ's coming could never be a "secret". They lacked Bible evidence on that too, so they dropped Darby's "secret rapture" term. All that has done is to further confuse those new to Christ. Their whole history of the doctrine is one twist after another to try and make it fit Scripture. It never has fit, will never fit Scripture, and those who remain stubborn on it must find that out the hard way. That such an idea would come and deceive some of God's people is hinted at by the Old Testament prophets (Ezekiel 13).

 

[lecoop]

Concerning chapter 12:
So if, as you say, the 3 1/2 year period of time is THE SAME as the 1260 day time, then you clearly understand that verse 7 is NOT 1260 days after verse 6. Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 7 is on the FIRST day of the 1260, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 1260 days between these verses.

I can guess then, that you clearly understand that verse 15 is NOT 3 1/2 years AFTER verse 14. Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 15 is on the FIRST day of the 3 1/2 years, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 3 1/2 years between these verses.

Can I get a clarification from you on these? Do you agree?

And again I can guess that you do NOT believe that 13:6 is 42 months AFTER 13:5. Right?
Therefore, chronoligically speaking, verse 15 is on the FIRST day of the 42 months, not the LAST day. John did NOT move those 42 months between these verses. Agreed?

You understand that this time frame is written, but NOT CARRIED THROUGH to fulfillment between these verses.
So in EVERY case, in chapters 12 and 13, the verse AFTER the 3 1/2 year time frame (or 1260 days or 42 months) does NOT chronologically follow that time frame. So when John mentions a time frame such as 1260 days or 42 months, he mentions them at the proper place in his narrative WHERE THEY ARE TO START. And certainly NOT where they end.

But, you insist that the verses following the 1260 days of the two witnesses,

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
15 Then the seventh angel sounded:

ARE chronologically 1260 days after verse 3. So, again I wonder WHY you are not consistant?

The truth is, The sounding of the 7th trumpet happens right after the BEGINNING of the 1260 days, NOT THE END. It is to be understood exactly the same as ALL OTHER mentions of the 3 1/2 years.

My last three posts have been solely to get you to see this point.

So verses 4-13 in chapter 11, HAVE NO CHRONOLOGY. They are there ONLY for information. The 1260 days are there ONLY for information. They are NOT Fulfilled in this chapter. Indeed, they are not fullfilled unto ALL the other mentions of the 3 1/2 years are fulfilled, which is at the 7th vial. That is the end of the week, and that is where ALL these parallel passages of time END.

Your chronology is impossible to understand, and is far removed from the flow of events as given Revelation.

In all cases in Revelation of the periods of 42 months, 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years, they ALL parallel each other, which you agreed. YET, they ALL BEGIN at the middle of Daniel's "one week", meaning, they are ALL about the LAST HALF of the tribulation timing. It is the 3 WOE periods tied to the LAST THREE TRUMPETS which set that order of events.

On the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to give a witness for 1260 days (Rev.11:3). That is ALSO the timing the Gentiles are given to tread the court without the temple, and the holy city, but given in months (42 months per Rev.11:2)

That 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is ALSO when Satan is cast down to the earth, and BEGINS the 3 and 1/2 years of the "woman" being protected by God from the flood out of his mouth (Rev.12:14 and Rev.12:6). What is that "flood" out of the dragon's mouth? It's lies, and the detail is given in Rev.9. It is ON that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period that the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (i.e., Satan, the dragon) will kill God's two witnesses after they finish their 1260 days testimony, leaving their dead bodies lay in the street for 3 and 1/2 days. ALL that is 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing.

Then 3 and 1/2 days after the two witnesses are killed, the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period begins with Christ's coming and He ends it all. Rev.13 is a greater detail description of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period's events. In Rev.13:5, power is given for the dragon to work for 42 months on earth, the SAME timing as the 1260 days of God's two witnesses, and the SAME timing as the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the court outside the temple and the holy city. ALL that is LAST HALF tribulation timing.

There is only ONE tribulation written for the end per God's Word, NOT TWO. That can easily be discovered within Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The first half of the tribulation will be about the re-establishing of Old Covenant worship in Jerusalem by the orthodox Jews who are prepared to build another temple there. That's when the "vile person" will make the "league", i.e., the peace pact in Jerusalem which the majority of Christian scholars have been looking for as the start of the "one week" (7 years). In the middle of Daniel's "one week", that Old Covenant style worship is ended with "the abomination that maketh desolate" being placed instead. And that's the midpoint, and the 1260 days, 42 months, 3 and 1/2 years countdown of the last half of the "one week" then BEGINS.

You are dreaming. Pure imagination.
You said:

Your chronology is impossible to understand, and is far removed from the flow of events as given Revelation.

I was not writing MY chronology: I was writing YOURS!! And yes, YOURS is impossible. It is not consistant. And it is simply not the truth.

You pick ONE (1) of the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years, that is the one concerning the two witnesses ,and have it run linearly just as it is written, so (as you say) the 7th trumpet comes 1260 days after the two witnesses begin. But all the rest run parallel.

So in YOUR theory, Rev. 12:6 comes 1260+ days after the midpoint. So you have the woman fleeing the abomination, 1260 days AFTER the abomination! Then, she will flee for 1260 days, making the last half the week, as long as the whole week! Sorry! They would ALL BE DEAD!!

So you have the war in heaven coming 1260 days after the midpoint (because the 1260 days of the witnesses has pushed it off into the future). YOu have the woman protected STARTING 1260 days after the midpoint. (Then running another 1260 days.) In fact, in your theory everything that John writes after 11:15 will be 1260 days after the midpoint, because you think 11:4-13 run linearly starting from the midpoint right through the second half of the week, up to the 7th trumpet that must then, end the week. So you have JOhn ending the week, in 11:15. How many times do you imagine that John ends this week?

Therefore, with your chronology, the second half of the week must be 42 months plus 1260 days plus 1260 days plus 3 1/2 years........you get my point.

It must be as I have written, OR ELSE you see Revelation as a jumbled up mess, with many parts parallel with other parts. And you get to pick which is parallel with which.

How may ways can I say this? It is WRONG to take 11:4-13 and make the verses "linear time" before the 7th trumpet. These verses are a PARENTHESIS, which makes the timing of the 7th trumpet the exact midpoint. It makes the sounding of the 7th trumpet VERY SOON after John is told to measure the temple.

This is MY (And John's) chronology:
Preface: John has written a narrative, sort of like history is written, but He writes history in advance. He writes VERY chronologically, just as history is usually written. He starts with the 1 seal, and goes right through them, 1,2,3,4,5,6 - but here must go into an "imtermission" because two events MUST happen before John can show the breaking of the 7th seal. These two events are the sealing of the 144,000 and the rapture of the church. Then, John proceeds to the 7th seal, and then starts sounding the trumpets, 1,2,3,4,5,6 - (these are in the first half of the week) and again must go into an intermission, because evens MUST happen before the 7th can be sounded. So I have said all this to show how perfect JOhn's chronology has been up to chapter 11. (why do you think he would change?)

(At 11:1 John is just before the exact midpoint of the week in his narrative)

John starts the 42 months of trampling the temple (11:2) just before the midpoint of the week. Next, John starts the testifying of the two witnesses just before the midpoint (11:3) (then john gives us more information about them, but this is parenthetic).
John shows the sounding of the 7th trumpet EXACTLY at the midpoint.
(This will be the exact moment of the abomination.)(JOhn is STILL progressing his narrative in a very chronologically fashion.)

John shows the worship at the 7th trumpet. John did NOT show the abomination that took place on earth, because he was in heaven, and did not see it, nor did God show it to him: But it happened just the same.

Chapter 12:
1-5 (parenthesis - so NO chronology - no timing)
12:6 Woman flees because she has just seen the abomination (just happened moments before when the 7th trumpet was sounded.)
12:7 War breaks out moments after the abomination and 7th trumpet.
12:14 Still shortly after midpoint, but after Satan is cast down, the woman will be carried on wings of eagles (protected by God) starting right here where John is at: AT the midpoint, or very shortly after.
Rev 13:1-5 still very shortly after the midpoint: the 42 months of the beast are to begin.


So, John has gone through all five mentions of the last half of the week, while in his narrative, he is AT THE MIDPOINT, and has not moved but a TINY ways after it.

Rev 14: Angels warn of taking the mark: so STILL close to the midpoint. The beast has not got his mark set up yet.

THIS is JOhn's chronology: a narrative that moves straight through time, written as we would write history, from one event to the next event to the next, chronologically as they happen.

Therefore, you take on the 7th trumpet is WAY OFF: in fact, it is 1260 days off. The seventh trumpet divides the week in half.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Veteran, you certainly have a HARD TIME understanding what I write. Is my writing really that confusing?

Surely you DO NOT BELIEVE that all humans on earth will go UP in the rapture - DO YOU?
So if all humans do NOT go up, the it MUST BE that some humans are LEFT BEHIND.

Surely that is not a hard concept to follow. I do believe that the rapture will be PRE trib. I an convinced that both John and the Holy Spirit believe it too. So my point is, SOME of those NON-born again people that were left behind (BECAUSE they were not born again) turn to God and become Christians AFTER the rapture (pretrib) had taken place. They are STILL a part of the body of Christ. But they are only a remnant of that body, because the MAIN LOAD left before the week started. WHY did they leave before the week started? Because they had NO appointment with God's wrath, and God's wrath is seen at the very beginning of the week.

I'm not confused as to the event order our Lord Jesus gave, because there is no Scripture evidence of a Pre-Trib "secret rapture". I don't care about the doctrines of men, no matter how soft and pleasant to the ears their doctrines may sound. There is NO Scripture evidence for SOME of Christ's Church being gathered while SOME others are "Left-behind". Furthermore, our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:29 that the resurrection of the just, and of the unjust, BOTH happen at the same time. So what does that reveal about men's doctrines that say some are whisked away while others are left behind?

It's specifically, the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine of men that is confusing your understanding of the order of events our Lord Jesus gave in His Book of Revelation. That doctrine never was taught in the early Church, and only began in 1830's Great Britain with a small group. So for 1,800 years, none of the Church had that doctrine. At some point in this century, the word "secret" which John Darby in 1830's Britain coined in the phrase "secret rapture", was dropped off, and the Pre-Trib school began simply calling it "the rapture". It became very clear to many being taught that false doctrine that Christ's coming could never be a "secret". They lacked Bible evidence on that too, so they dropped Darby's "secret rapture" term. All that has done is to further confuse those new to Christ. Their whole history of the doctrine is one twist after another to try and make it fit Scripture. It never has fit, will never fit Scripture, and those who remain stubborn on it must find that out the hard way. That such an idea would come and deceive some of God's people is hinted at by the Old Testament prophets (Ezekiel 13).

One thing is certain, post trib folks, and I will include prewrath folks too, have no "corner" on understanding the word of God. Smarter people that either you or I, disagree with you. They do see a pretrib rapture. If one truly understands the chronology in Revelation, a pretrib rapture is clear: John shows us the raptured church in heaven, at the throne of God (chapter 7) before he ever begins the 70th week or Day of the Lord. Then, when you understand where John starts the day of the Lord, which IS a time of His wrath, with the trumpet judgements, you see that the rapture MUST take place before the trumpets - which is exactly what John shows us.

When you understand that the wedding and marriage supper will be in heaven, before Jesus returns to face Armageddon, we MUST be there - and of course, we will. There are even strong hints of this before John ever wrote:

Luke 12:36
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Consider this verse:

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

WHO shall He appear to? Only those that LOOK for Him. Compare that with "every eye shall see Him," and they cannot be compared: it is obvious there are TWO more comings: one to get the church - those that look for Him - and again to face Armageddon.

1 Thes. 5 also is an interesting scripture: Paul compares "they" and "them," the unbelievers, with "Us" and "we," the believes. WE have no appointment with wrath, or the day of the Lord, but they, when they say peace and safety, will have instead, sudden destruction. That will be the start of the day of the Lord.
Paul makes that point clear. That day won't overtake us, and we won't face the sudden destruction, because "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation." Sorry, but we CANNOT be here for the sudden destruction. That sudden destruction, according to John, we be the world wide earthquake that comes at the 6th seal.

How much of what we know as true church doctrine was known, before Martin Luthor was born? IF there was ANY truth then, it was known by only a handful of people. But God said He would build his church on revealed knowledge: and He has done exactly that. Today we have more revealed knowledge of the word of God than ever before. Of course, we also have more doctrines of devils than every before. Therefore, we MUST have the Holy Spirit as our teacher. He is the only way to know what His intent was when He had John write.

Coop