Is Tribulation Synonymous with Daniel’s 70th Week?

[veteran]

I assume you're trying to add the idea of a false "secret rapture" to this, which is not Biblical, for as those verses show the saints which keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ are still there on earth for the serpent to persecute.

How can you say the rapture is not biblical? Ah!! You are saying that there IS a rapture, but it is NOT a secret? Of course it is not a secret, for all pretrib's know it and believe it. The truth is, the Holy Spirit and John believed it to, for John wrote of it in Rev. 7, BEFORE the 70th week even begins. The great crowd, to large to number IS the raptured church, seen in heaven - shortly after the rapture. What you fail to recognize, is that as soon as the rapture takes the church off the planet, there is a NEW group of believers. Millions that are left behind, realize their mistake, and turn to God. And they are "saints." Just not the church that was snatched away.

If you'll notice, I said there's no such thing as a SECRET rapture written in God's Word. That means a Pre-Trib rapture, for that's originally what John Darby named the pre-tribe rapture idea in 1830's Britain where it first began to be preached. I even put "secret rapture" in quotes, to show I was quoting the phrase. Sometime later, the Pre-Trib schools dropped the word "secret", although many of that school still hold to the secret idea. Even when I was a young boy, the Pre-Trib rapture idea was still being taught as a 'secret' coming of Christ before the great tribulation.

Furthermore, the Rev.11 chapter is covering events of the great tribulation. The tribulation begins when Satan is cast down to the earth with his angels, which is 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing. Christ comes on the 7th trumpet per that Rev.11 chapter. That's TWO chapters prior to Rev.13 by the way.

You seem confused here: "chapter 11 is coverning events of the great tribulation," but it begins in chapter 12? oh. Really? The abomination happens in chapter 11, as seen by the woman fleeing in 12:6. Satan IS cast out in chapter 12, NOT at the 6th trumpet. He cannot be cast down, until the 7th trumpet has sounded.

Christ's coming is on the 7th trumpet per Rev.11, for that's when all the kingdoms of the earth become His. So how can Satan come then, when it's Christ's coming that will destroy that Wicked with the brightness of His coming? Daniel 12:1 shows Michael will "stand up", and then a time of trouble begins on earth that has never been the likes before, nor shall ever be again. When Michael stands up, that's the war in Heaven of Rev.12:7-9 when Satan is cast down to the earth with his angels. Satan's great army is loosed on the 6th trumpet-2nd woe, per Rev.9. It is said there that army has a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit. That's 6th trumpet timing. This is how the beast of Rev.11 that ascends out of the bottomless pit is able to kill God's "two witnesses" during the 6th trumpet-2nd woe period.

It will take a while to get the image set up, and the mark set up, so that the great killing frenzy can begin. All this probably won't get started until chapter 15 or 16. You see, chapter 14 must still be before the mark, because the angel warns of taking the mark. So I STILL say you are rushing things.

You're doing the same thing as NJBeliever in trying study Revelation events as progressive chapters in order. On the 7th trumpet...

Rev 11:14-18
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and Wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.(KJV)

According to those 7th trumpet events, all the kingdoms on earth become Christ's, and He begins His literal Milennium reign. And, the time of God's wrath upon the wicked happens with that, along with the time of the dead being judged, and rewards to the saints, along with the time to destroy those which destroy the earth. Now look at the 6th vial event...

Rev 16:12-16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

The Euphrates dries up to prepare the kings of the east for Armageddon (day of the Lord timing) against Christ's army He brings with Him when He comes. Verse 14 is still tribulation timing, false miracle working still going on. And then Christ declares to His still on earth to watch and keep their garments (works in Christ), lest they be found spiritually naked and ashamed at His coming, for He will come as a thief. How is that event on the 6th vial if it occurs after the 7th trumpet, for the time of the saints receiving reward and God's wrath upon the wicked was just mentioned back on the 7th trumpet event?

 

[veteran]

Actually, the 7th trumpet marks the end of the tribulation, and is the time of Christ's coming "as a thief", and the time of God's wrath on the "day of the Lord", which is what Armageddon is about. If the 7th trumpet was for the midpoint of the tribulation, that would mean 1260 more days of tribulation even AFTER Christ's coming. That's impossible.

In Rev.11 the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city for 42 months. The dragon of Rev.13 is given to work power over the saints for 42 months. That's showing the tribulation timing involving false messiah. God's two witnesses are given to prophesy against him during that same period, for 1260 days. The only difference with those months and days time is 'months' represents the working of the children of darkness, and 'days' represents the working of the children of the day, i.e., God's servants.

So when God's two witnesses are resurrected on the 2nd woe, it's at the very END of the second woe period, and beginning of the 3rd woe with Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet. This is why Rev.11 says in "the same hour" when the 2nd woe ended, the 7th trumpet begins to sound.

 

[lecoop]

Christ's coming is on the 7th trumpet per Rev.11, for that's when all the kingdoms of the earth become His. So how can Satan come then, when it's Christ's coming that will destroy that Wicked with the brightness of His coming? Daniel 12:1 shows Michael will "stand up", and then a time of trouble begins on earth that has never been the likes before, nor shall ever be again. When Michael stands up, that's the war in Heaven of Rev.12:7-9 when Satan is cast down to the earth with his angels. Satan's great army is loosed on the 6th trumpet-2nd woe, per Rev.9. It is said there that army has a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit. That's 6th trumpet timing. This is how the beast of Rev.11 that ascends out of the bottomless pit is able to kill God's "two witnesses" during the 6th trumpet-2nd woe period.

Let's camp here for a while. You wrote: "Christ's coming is on the 7th trumpet per Rev.11" just as if this is an established fact, which, by the way, it is NOT. What? Are you adding yet another "coming?" Pretribbers read chapter 19, and we KNOW that is when His coming really is. Now, between what two words, do you find the word "coming?" Or in what verse do you find the word "coming, in chapter 11?" What you have done, is read this with preconceived glasses and ASSUMED it was His coming, because you read that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our God. You are basing doctrine on an imagination, not on what is written. John has it right: Jesus comes in chapter 19 AFTER the 70th week has finished.

So, what really happens here at the 7th trumpet? This is the end of one Millennia, and the start of another. It is the END, FINISH, of the reign of Satan as the god of this world. (YOu will notice that he is cast DOWN immediately after the 7th trumpet.) You see, the scroll, which is without a doubt the lease document of planet earth, has declared that Satan's LEASE HAS RUN OUT. So of course, the kingdoms of the world that Satan WAS (past tense) god of - now become the kingdoms of our Lord.

THIS IN NO WAY MEANS JESUS TAKES POSSESSION AT THIS TIME! God has promised the beast 42 months of authority, and of course God is not going to go back on His word. The 42 months begins right at the 7th trumpet.

You're doing the same thing as NJBeliever in trying study Revelation events as progressive chapters in order

.

Veteran, please read this very carefully:

Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong.

If you insist that it is not in order, then the burden is on you to prove it - but always remember, if you CHANGE or REARRANGE, you will be proven wrong. If you THINK it is not in the right order, it is because of preconceived glasses - or a simple lack of understanding of John's chronology.

Let's start here:
Do you think the seals are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?
Do you think the Trumpets are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?
Do you think the Vials are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?

Or, do you mix up the seals, trumpets and vials? Any kind of changing - and in the end, you will be proven wrong. Make no mistake, Jesus comes back to face Armageddon, in chapter 19, AFTER all the vials have finished - after the 7th vial has marked the END of the 70th week.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Do you notice the order? Neither God nor John was confused as to chronology.

According to those 7th trumpet events, all the kingdoms on earth become Christ's, and He begins His literal Milennium reign. And, the time of God's wrath upon the wicked happens with that, along with the time of the dead being judged, and rewards to the saints, along with the time to destroy those which destroy the earth. Now look at the 6th vial event...

I agree with your first sentence: at the 7th trumpet, Satan's lease has run out. The ownership is transfered. However, Jesus does NOT IMMEDIATELY take possession. Of course He reigns - but from heaven, until chapter 19. It is at the 7th trumpet that the abomination occurs; and shortly after that when the days of great tribulation begin. This is NOT saying that God's wrath starts here; The "is come" is translated from a Greek aorist verb, which has NO TENSE AT ALL: meaning, it shows no time. We have no verbs like that. So there cannot be a perfect translation. All this verse is showing, is that in the 3 1/2 years to come, AFTER the 7th trumpet, God's wrath will certainly be involved. Therefore, any argument that this is the start of God's wrath, is WRONG, so any assumption that the rapture occurs at the 7th trump is also WRONG.

The Euphrates dries up to prepare the kings of the east for Armageddon (day of the Lord timing) against Christ's army He brings with Him when He comes.

It appears that you are saying, the "day of the Lord" begins at the battle of Armageddon. If this is indeed what you are saying, go back and read Isaiah 2 and Joel 2, BOTH speaking of the Day of the Lord, and see that they have their fulfillment at the 6th seal. The whole intent of what is written at the 6th seal, is to show us that the signs there, are that the day of the Lord, is IMMINENT: about to being, and nothing will be inbetween (the very definition of imminent.) Therefore, the actual "day of the Lord" begins with the 7th seal - and the silence in heaven for 30 minutes: a time of solumn contemplation, because God's wrath is about to begin.

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty

Verse 14 is still tribulation timing, false miracle working still going on. And then Christ declares to His still on earth to watch and keep their garments (works in Christ), lest they be found spiritually naked and ashamed at His coming, for He will come as a thief. How is that event on the 6th vial if it occurs after the 7th trumpet, for the time of the saints receiving reward and God's wrath upon the wicked was just mentioned back on the 7th trumpet event?

"Still tribulation timing?" And you proof is verse 14? First, what do you mean by "tribulation?" If you mean that the 70th week has not ended, I can agree with you; for it officially ends with the 7th vial. ("it is done.") But if you mean the beast is still beheading people, I think you are wrong. Jesus said those days of great tribulation would be shortened: meaning they will not last the entire 42 months if the beast's reign. By this time, the vials will have made it impossible for him to continue his reign of terror.

Those still on earth that LOVE HIM, does not at all mean that the rapture has not yet happened. These are NEW believers. Millions will turn to God during the 70th week. As you can well read, Jesus has STILL NOT COME YET, which blows your 7th trumpet theory. If you go back and read at the 7th trumpet, these are words of prophecy, from the 24 elders, speaking of events yet future. There is NO indication that they occur at that point in time. For instance, "the time of the dead, that they should be judged:" WHEN are the dead judged? The great white throne will be at least 1000 years future to this prophecy.

Therefore, your proofs that Revelation is not in chronological order, as I said in the beginning, were immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

"Actually, the 7th trumpet marks the end of the tribulation.."

Total preconceived ideas, with NO BASIS from scripture: what is chapter 13 about? Did John put it in the wrong place? What is the message of the third angel with a message, in chapter 14? (all about the mark.) What is the meaning of Satan going after the woman in chapter 12? Why is the woman fleeing in chapter 12? AL THESE are proofs that your theory is mixed up. There are FIVE (5) mentions of the second half of the week, in chapters 11-13. EACH of these is PROOF positive that John is still at the midpoint of the 70th week, very near the abomination that BEGINS "those days" of "great tribulation." You see, each of these time periods BEGINS at the abomination, which is at the 7th trumpet. Almost everything in chapters 11-14, prove that John is at the midpoint of the week, if read without preconceived glasses. You want to have those days of great tribulation ENDED - before John has started them.

the 7th trumpet ...is the time of Christ's coming "as a thief",

Preconceived ideas: please POINT OUT THE WORD "COMING." Of course, it is NOT THERE. There IS NO coming in chapter 11, because He comes in chapter 19. He CAME for the church, before the 70th week began at the 7th seal. You are basing your theory on imagination, not the clear meaning of the scripture.

the time of God's wrath on the "day of the Lord", which is what Armageddon is about.

Of course, you are free to believe anything you want. But this is just more of a long list of reading with preconceived glasses on. God and John start the day of the Lord, with the 7th seal. It is NOT just one, 24 hour day. It IS the entire 70th week, PLUS, the battle of armageddon and probable the entire 1000 year reign included in the day of the Lord. Do you not see God's wrath in an event that kills 1/3 of the population of the earth? Do you not see God's wrath in little beasties that sting so bad, people want to die, but cannot? OF COURSE this is all God's wrath. It begins with the first trumpet.

If the 7th trumpet was for the midpoint of the tribulation, that would mean 1260 more days of tribulation even AFTER Christ's coming. That's impossible.

Of course it seems impossible in your mind, because you have MOVED and REARRANGED His real coming. Go back and read chapter 19. THAT is when He really comes. You have one false doctrine, based on another, based on another. JESUS DOES NOT COME at the 7th trumpet. That is FALSE DOCTRINE. And you are on a public forum trying to teach it.

I believe that you can read and understand: please take off preconceptions and read these verses for what they say:

REv 13:
5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Please note first that this is written in chapter 13. This 42 months will begin at the 7th trumpet. So OF COURSE there will be 42 months - of which some of it will be "those days" of " great tribulation" AFTER the 7th trumpet.

REv 12
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

These 3 1/2 year will BEGIN at the 7th trumpet. This is basically the SAME time frame as the 42 months of authority of the beast, and will be concurrent time.

REv 12:6
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

These 1260 days will BEGIN at the 7th trumpet. They will be concurrent with the 42 months of the beast's authority. Please note, this is chapter 12, ONE chapter AFTER the 7th trumpet.

REv 11
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


Please note, this is DIFFERENT: it is written BEFORE the 7th trumpet. WHY? Because they show up on earth, 3 1/2 days BEFORE the 7th trumpet. That is why John writes of them here, just before the 7th trumpet. But, MAKE NO MISTAKE: this 1260 days, will be concurrent with the 1260 days of the woman protected in the wilderness, EXCEPT these 1260 days will start 3 1/2 days earlier. WHY? Because they lay dead for 3 1/2 days. They MUST testify for exactly 1260 days.

REv 11
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Please note, this is DIFFERENT: it is written BEFORE the 7th trumpet. WHY? BEcause these 42 months, while MOST of the time will be concurrent with the 42 months of authority of the beast, will BEGIN shortly before the 7th trumpet. It appears that the beast's armies arrive in Jerusalem just before the abomination. (Of course he as to BE THERE to stand in the Holy Place and declare he is God. This only shows us that he arrives here a few days early.

All these verses, when read with NO PRECONCEIVED glasses, tell us that in John's narrative, he is AT THE MIDPOINT in all of these 5 mentions of the final 3 1/2 years or the 70th week. Perhaps it is time now, for you to RETHINK that the 7th trumpet is his coming?

In Rev.11 the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city for 42 months. The dragon of Rev.13 is given to work power over the saints for 42 months.

Finally something we can agree on!! These are almost concurrent time, but the treading will begin a few days before.

That's showing the tribulation timing involving false messiah.

Yes, 42 months of authority: but where will YOU begin this 42 months? John wrote in in chapter 13, so does it seem to make a little sense that it must being somewhere in chapters 11-14?

God's two witnesses are given to prophesy against him during that same period, for 1260 days.

Finally, two things we agree on! These two timings run concurrently! Hallelujah!!! But, when do you day, they BEGIN?

The only difference with those months and days time is 'months' represents the working of the children of darkness, and 'days' represents the working of the children of the day, i.e., God's servants.

Why do you say this? They are concurrent timing, and after ever night of the 1260 days, there will be a day - and after every day, there will be night. This will be true for the woman fleeing AND for the two witnesses - UNLESS or UNTIL God brings the darkness. I think a better explanation for the days verses months, is simply that days are MORE ACCURATE. They will be fulfilled to the exact day, while the 42 months may be a few days off.

So when God's two witnesses are resurrected on the 2nd woe, it's at the very END of the second woe period, and beginning of the 3rd woe with Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet. This is why Rev.11 says in "the same hour" when the 2nd woe ended, the 7th trumpet begins to sound.

WAIT!! You just said their time runs concurrent with the 42 months of the beast!!! Now you have them dieing before the beast even gets his mark set up!! :biglol :rolling :rolling :rolling

If there timing was concurrect, and IT IS, then they must die, way at the end of the 42 months.

Here is where you missed John's chronology:
John has a parenthesis here in the narrative of the two witnesses:

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet "marks" the exact midpoint of the week.)

(.verses .4-13.)Parenthesis

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
(Moments before the 7th trumpet is sounded, to "mark" the exact midpoint.) (Note: I use the word "mark" because that is the exact word used by the Holy Spirit when He spoke to me and said, "You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation.")

So John's chronology is this:

The 42 months of treading will begin a few days before the 7th trumpet:
The two witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet to BEGIN their witness'
The second woe is past, the their woe comes quickly.....
The 7th trumpet is sounded - the beast abominates - desolations begin
The woman flees into the wilderness (12:6) probably seconds or minutes AFTER the abomination.
The woman is protected for 3 1/2 years
The beast is given 42 months of authority.

You see, all these events happen within minutes to days of each other, but written in the exact order in which they will happen, WHEN they happen.

So everything about the two witnesses AFTER their showing up, verse 3, is a parenthesis, as God takes John through the last half of the week with THEIR ministry, death and resurrection. If you follow John's chornology, they die 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial is poured out, and they are resurrected with the old testament saints AT the 7th vial.

Coop

 

[David505]

If I may, I'd like to clear up a couple of things in the OP.

Rosenthal did not come up with the PreWrath position. That was done by Robert Van Kampen. Van Kampen's book, The Sigh, is much more comprehensive than Marv's book(s).

They went on to show the first half of the 70th. week did not contain any of the great tribulation. They showed in their teachings that the GT started "mid week". They also (correctly) identified Tribulation and wrath as two distinct and separate events.

Now:

Rosenthal did us a service cracking open the most obvious flaws in dispensationalism. However, we need to now completely reassess the 70th week. The next step is to realise that there is no gap between the 69th and 70th. That will be a bigger breakthrough in eschatology than what Rosenthal achieved.

Cyber

I agree 100%! But this is no big breakthrough at all. The sad thing is most the ekklesia lost touch with the older views and with some aspects of Messianic prophecy. Certainly, the Reformers and all historicists realize the 70 weeks were consecutive. :yes

Thanks Vic C. That's a good point. My understanding is that Robert VanKampen influenced and collaborated with Marvin Rosenthal while Rosenthal wrote "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church." VanKampen published "The Sign" after Rosenthal.

 

[veteran]

Let's camp here for a while. You wrote: "Christ's coming is on the 7th trumpet per Rev.11" just as if this is an established fact, which, by the way, it is NOT. What? Are you adding yet another "coming?" Pretribbers read chapter 19, and we KNOW that is when His coming really is. Now, between what two words, do you find the word "coming?" Or in what verse do you find the word "coming, in chapter 11?" What you have done, is read this with preconceived glasses and ASSUMED it was His coming, because you read that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our God. You are basing doctrine on an imagination, not on what is written. John has it right: Jesus comes in chapter 19 AFTER the 70th week has finished.

So you're saying you don't recognize the events of that Rev.11:18 verse given along with that 7th trumpet as Christ's coming?

Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

You should be able to recognize all those events to know that is Christ's coming. Not only that, but Paul clearly showed the resurrection happens on the "last trump" also (1 Cor.15), which means the farthest one out, literally the very last trumpet. There's only 7 trumpets in Revelation our Lord gave, not an 8th or more. Paul also showed in 2 Thess.2 that the 'day of the Lord' is also when Christ's coming is, and our gathering to Him, not to mention 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10 pointing to the day of the Lord also being the time of wrath upon the wicked. I don't have the best memory, so I don't see how someone can forget all those related Scriptures which also define that same timing as the Rev.11 7th trumpet. Also, no rewards are handed out to the saints until Christ's coming.

So, what really happens here at the 7th trumpet? This is the end of one Millennia, and the start of another. It is the END, FINISH, of the reign of Satan as the god of this world. (YOu will notice that he is cast DOWN immediately after the 7th trumpet.) You see, the scroll, which is without a doubt the lease document of planet earth, has declared that Satan's LEASE HAS RUN OUT. So of course, the kingdoms of the world that Satan WAS (past tense) god of - now become the kingdoms of our Lord.

What happens is exactly what Rev.11:15-18 shows, all kingdoms on earth become Christ's as He begins His literal reign over all nations, meaning Satan is locked in the pit. It is Rev.20:1-4 timing. Along with that, the time of His wrath upon the wicked happens, the time of the dead, etc. If that Rev.11:18 was not there, you might have had a case, though the Rev.11:15 verse of Christ taking reign would still conflict with what you're saying, because you're implying by that lease idea that Satan can still rule on earth with all kingdoms having become Christ's with His reign. That idea is a big conflict with what's written there.

THIS IN NO WAY MEANS JESUS TAKES POSSESSION AT THIS TIME! God has promised the beast 42 months of authority, and of course God is not going to go back on His word. The 42 months begins right at the 7th trumpet.

Christ takes possession of all kingdoms on the earth is exactly... what it means, and He begins His literal reign on earth with His saints at that time. The 42 months is up when that 7th trumpet happens. That is the "last trump" Paul taught.

Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong.

You think others who can read The Bible for theirselves can't see how you're denying the Scripture as written there? Your affirmation that I've rearranged the Scripture won't hold water. And it's fairly evident you don't understand how the Old Testament Books of God's prophets are layed out either, for the timeline within them is constantly moving back and forth from past, present, and future, just like our Lord's Book of Revelation also does.

If you insist that it is not in order, then the burden is on you to prove it - but always remember, if you CHANGE or REARRANGE, you will be proven wrong. If you THINK it is not in the right order, it is because of preconceived glasses - or a simple lack of understanding of John's chronology.

I've already shown how that Rev.11:18 verse is declaring events that are also given later for the 7th vial. That forces us to follow the order per the type of events, and not simply by wanting to make Revelation read like every chapter's events are in chronological order.

Let's start here:
Do you think the seals are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?
Do you think the Trumpets are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?
Do you think the Vials are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?

I'm not doing the rearranging, you are, per the traditions of men that you follow. It's obvious you're not paying close attention to what's contained in the events given. The very first seal of the one on the white horse going to conquer, what event is that? If you say it's Christ's coming, then how is that the 1st seal and not the 6th seal? If you say that's antichrist, also, how does that happen on the 1st seal?

The last 3 trumpet events are in proper order, we know that for certain, because Christ gave 3 woe periods. The events of the seven seals and seven vials must be weighed according to the order given with the last three trumpets. On the 6th trumpet the locust army is loosed upon the earth, the four angels at the Euphrates being unbound. On the 6th vial, the spirits of devils are working miracles going to the kings of the earth and the whole world, and the Euphrates is dried for the kings of the east to cross in prep for battle.

Or, do you mix up the seals, trumpets and vials? Any kind of changing - and in the end, you will be proven wrong. Make no mistake, Jesus comes back to face Armageddon, in chapter 19, AFTER all the vials have finished - after the 7th vial has marked the END of the 70th week.

I never denied that our Lord doesn't come on the 7th vial. His coming is on the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Do you notice the order? Neither God nor John was confused as to chronology.[/quote]

I notice the order, but I don't think you do, otherwise you would have included other relevant Scripture written along with that period from the end of the 2nd woe to the start of the 3rd woe-7th trumpet. The 3rd woe starts within "the same hour" the 2nd woe ends. That means you CANNOT just move the 7th trumpet to the midpoint of the tribulation, which is your attempt to rearrange the Scripture.

I agree with your first sentence: at the 7th trumpet, Satan's lease has run out. The ownership is transfered. However, Jesus does NOT IMMEDIATELY take possession. Of course He reigns - but from heaven, until chapter 19. It is at the 7th trumpet that the abomination occurs; and shortly after that when the days of great tribulation begin. This is NOT saying that God's wrath starts here; The "is come" is translated from a Greek aorist verb, which has NO TENSE AT ALL: meaning, it shows no time. We have no verbs like that. So there cannot be a perfect translation. All this verse is showing, is that in the 3 1/2 years to come, AFTER the 7th trumpet, God's wrath will certainly be involved. Therefore, any argument that this is the start of God's wrath, is WRONG, so any assumption that the rapture occurs at the 7th trump is also WRONG.

When Christ begins His "thousand years" reign on earth with His saints, Satan is locked in the pit, along with those who ruled with him (see Isaiah 14 for another example of that). Per Zech.14, Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and the gathering of His to Him happens there. That's on earth, not in Heaven, even as Rev.20:9 reveals that is the "camp of the saints", on earth. The idea that Christ's reign with His saints then is from Heaven is a TRADITION OF MEN. When the 7th trumpet happens, which is the "last trump" per Paul, Christ's coming happens and the raising of the dead, and all on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye. That's the event of Christ coming back to this earth to the Mount of Olives as written, where He ascended to Heaven from. You're confused about the "last week" of Daniel's 70 weeks. When the "abomination of desolation" happens, that will begin the "great tribulation". That period was originally to be 42 months, or 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years, meaning the last half of the 7 years. But Christ shortened that time for the sake of His elect. The 6th trumpet is when Satan's locust army are loosed upon the earth (Rev.9). Until the 3rd woe starts, the tribulation is still going on (Rev.11). God's "two witnesses" are killed at the very end of the tribulation period, after their 1260 days Testimony, which brings the end of the 2nd woe period and start of the 3rd woe. The 42 months period the Gentiles "tread" the court and holy city is the same time the dragon is given power over the saints, per Rev.13. Those Gentiles of Rev.11:2 are not about us, unless you intend to be deceived.

The Euphrates dries up to prepare the kings of the east for Armageddon (day of the Lord timing) against Christ's army He brings with Him when He comes.

It appears that you are saying, the "day of the Lord" begins at the battle of Armageddon. If this is indeed what you are saying, go back and read Isaiah 2 and Joel 2, BOTH speaking of the Day of the Lord, and see that they have their fulfillment at the 6th seal. The whole intent of what is written at the 6th seal, is to show us that the signs there, are that the day of the Lord, is IMMINENT: about to being, and nothing will be inbetween (the very definition of imminent.) Therefore, the actual "day of the Lord" begins with the 7th seal - and the silence in heaven for 30 minutes: a time of solumn contemplation, because God's wrath is about to begin.

Yep, the day of The Lord happens with Armageddon, for the events of God's wrath upon the wicked, and the end of this world by fire, are events Paul and Peter linked with the day of The Lord. Zechariah 14 even includes a graphic description of how the wicked will be consumed while standing on the earth in that day. The Ezekiel 39 chapter is about God ending this present world, raining hail down upon Satan's host army that will come upon Israel out of the north quarters. He says He will send a fire upon Gog, and those who dwell carelessly in the isles (i.e., the rebellious). Israel will afterwards be burying the dead of that army for sevens years as written there. That's when they shall call that valley in Israel the "valley of Hamongog", which means 'the tumult or multitude of Gog'.

"Still tribulation timing?" And you proof is verse 14? First, what do you mean by "tribulation?" If you mean that the 70th week has not ended, I can agree with you; for it officially ends with the 7th vial. ("it is done.") But if you mean the beast is still beheading people, I think you are wrong. Jesus said those days of great tribulation would be shortened: meaning they will not last the entire 42 months if the beast's reign. By this time, the vials will have made it impossible for him to continue his reign of terror.

The tribulation will end on that 7th last trumpet, which is what the Rev.11:15-18 verses show. It is also 7th vial timing. We're being given a short look forward in those Rev.11:15-18 verses.

Those still on earth that LOVE HIM, does not at all mean that the rapture has not yet happened. These are NEW believers. Millions will turn to God during the 70th week. As you can well read, Jesus has STILL NOT COME YET, which blows your 7th trumpet theory. If you go back and read at the 7th trumpet, these are words of prophecy, from the 24 elders, speaking of events yet future. There is NO indication that they occur at that point in time. For instance, "the time of the dead, that they should be judged:" WHEN are the dead judged? The great white throne will be at least 1000 years future to this prophecy.

If you believe anyone is raptured prior to any other who might come to Christ during the tribulation, then that is the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, and not what is written. I have no doubt there will be some that will believe on Christ during the tribulation, but they will be raptured at the end of the tribulation along with the rest of the saints, which is when Christ comes for the gathering. There's no division in Christ's true Body of saints. The 7th trumpet or "last trump", is when Christ's coming happens to gather His saints. It's also the day of The Lord event, the end of the tribulation, the resurrection, and the burning up of the elements off the earth by God's consuming fire. You can deny that from 1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10, and Rev.16:15-16 all you want, but those Scriptures give direct evidence of all those events happen at the same time. The time of the dead means the time of the resurrection of the dead. That Rev.11:18 verse also mentions the time of God's wrath, what about that? All those events, Christ's coming to reward His saints, the time of the dead (resurrection), and His wrath upon the wicked, are all there.

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks Vic C. That's a good point. My understanding is that Robert VanKampen influenced and collaborated with Marvin Rosenthal while Rosenthal wrote "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church." VanKampen published "The Sign" after Rosenthal.

Hi David. Yes, Van Kampen did do some work with Rosenthal, with a little convincing. Prior to that, Rosenthal was pre-trib. His book came out in 1990, with Van Kampen's book being released in 1992. His was much more extensive, which is probably why it came out later.

 

[veteran]

These 3 1/2 year will BEGIN at the 7th trumpet. This is basically the SAME time frame as the 42 months of authority of the beast, and will be concurrent time.

REv 12:6
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

These 1260 days will BEGIN at the 7th trumpet. They will be concurrent with the 42 months of the beast's authority. Please note, this is chapter 12, ONE chapter AFTER the 7th trumpet.

REv 11
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


Please note, this is DIFFERENT: it is written BEFORE the 7th trumpet. WHY? Because they show up on earth, 3 1/2 days BEFORE the 7th trumpet. That is why John writes of them here, just before the 7th trumpet. But, MAKE NO MISTAKE: this 1260 days, will be concurrent with the 1260 days of the woman protected in the wilderness, EXCEPT these 1260 days will start 3 1/2 days earlier. WHY? Because they lay dead for 3 1/2 days. They MUST testify for exactly 1260 days.

REv 11
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Please note, this is DIFFERENT: it is written BEFORE the 7th trumpet. WHY? BEcause these 42 months, while MOST of the time will be concurrent with the 42 months of authority of the beast, will BEGIN shortly before the 7th trumpet. It appears that the beast's armies arrive in Jerusalem just before the abomination. (Of course he as to BE THERE to stand in the Holy Place and declare he is God. This only shows us that he arrives here a few days early.

All these verses, when read with NO PRECONCEIVED glasses, tell us that in John's narrative, he is AT THE MIDPOINT in all of these 5 mentions of the final 3 1/2 years or the 70th week. Perhaps it is time now, for you to RETHINK that the 7th trumpet is his coming?

I truly don't know how in the world you get that idea that the 7th trumpet happens prior to God's two witnesses giving their Testimony. No such idea can come from what's written there in Rev.11. And Rev.12 in no way modifies it.

Remember, our Lord Jesus gave us 3 woe periods to go by, to look at events in order. They begin at the end of Rev.8 and end in Rev.11. The woe periods do not continue into Rev.12 and thereafter! Instead, the Rev.12 through 19 chapters are more revealings of the events already given WITHIN the 'woe' chapters. Even the first five verses of Rev.12 is a summary of God's Plan, going all the way back to the time when Satan first rebelled against Him to the time of Christ's future reign on earth. Christ reign with the "rod of iron" doesn't begin until the 7th trumpet, and Rev.20. Yet ruling with that "rod of iron" is even first mentioned back at Rev.2:27 about His elect who will reign with Him.

Rev 11:2-8
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The dragon is also given to reign for 42 months in Rev.13, the same period.

3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

God's two witnesses are given to prophesy during that same period, but given here as 1260 days.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(KJV)

Rev 11:11
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
(KJV)

Only AFTER... they have FINISHED their Testimony are they killed. 3 and 1/2 days later is the ending of the 2nd woe, and the start of the 3rd woe (7th trumpet). How long is their Testimony for? 1260 days. By the end of the 2nd woe, it means they have FINISHED 1260 days of prophesying.

Don't you understand that means the 2nd woe lasted at least 1260 days? When does their Testimony START then? At the midpoint, the latter half of the 7 years tribulation timing. Does the 3rd last woe happen at the midpoint prior to their 1260 days Testimony? Of course not, unless you wrongly think the number 3 comes before the number 2.

 

[lecoop]

So you're saying you don't recognize the events of that Rev.11:18 verse given along with that 7th trumpet as Christ's coming?

Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

You should be able to recognize all those events to know that is Christ's coming. Not only that, but Paul clearly showed the resurrection happens on the "last trump" also (1 Cor.15), which means the farthest one out, literally the very last trumpet. There's only 7 trumpets in Revelation our Lord gave, not an 8th or more. Paul also showed in 2 Thess.2 that the 'day of the Lord' is also when Christ's coming is, and our gathering to Him, not to mention 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10 pointing to the day of the Lord also being the time of wrath upon the wicked. I don't have the best memory, so I don't see how someone can forget all those related Scriptures which also define that same timing as the Rev.11 7th trumpet. Also, no rewards are handed out to the saints until Christ's coming.

Does this look anything at all like Revelation 19, where we KNOW He is coming? Answer: no, not at all.

Question: how much "weight" as far as doctrine, would you put on these two scriptures? Equal? Or no?

Rev. 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Rev 17:3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns..

Verse two seems very literal; John saw, with his one eyes, the seven angels that were given the seven trumpets. I think this is a good verse for doctrine. There can be no doubt that the day will come, when 7 angels will be given seven trumpets.

Verse 3, chapter 17, is again what John SAW, but can it be taken literally? The woman is later called "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES. In another place, is is written "the great whore that sitteth upon many waters." So is she sitting on a strange beast, or is she sitting on waters? Would you be willing to base doctrine on a woman sitting on a beast, as a literal woman, on a literal beast? I don't think so.

My point is, our doctrine must come from literal verses, in a literal time frame context: in other words, we must make SURE it is a real time frame and not a prophecy of some future event; else our timing will be all messed up. Agreed?

You wrote:

You should be able to recognize all those events to know that is Christ's coming.

No, I don't, because it looks NOTHING like what I read in Rev. 19. That is a real and literal coming, where he will face the armies of the world, at Armageddon. Now, let's examine what you are seeing that makes you think this is a coming.

Not only that, but Paul clearly showed the resurrection happens on the "last trump" also (1 Cor.15), which means the farthest one out, literally the very last trumpet. There's only 7 trumpets in Revelation our Lord gave, not an 8th or more.

Are you saying that God will send out angels to collect all trumpets - so that forever more, there will NEVER, EVER, be another trumpet blast? Of course that is silly. There may will be a trumpet solo given many times during the Millennial reign. So the 7th trump is only 'THE LAST TRUMP OF THIS SERIES." That is the only thing that makes it somewhat similar to the 1 Thes 4:17 last trump: they are without a doubt, both the final or last trumpet blast of a certain series. There is absolutely nothing to tie Paul's with John's. And why do you compare John's ANGEL trumpets "with the trump of God?" How can you compare them? They cannot be compared. Next, there is absolutely nothing in scripture to tie these two trumpets together. Paul's "last trump" can just as well mean the last trump of a well known series of trumps, such as at the feast of trumpets. Next, there is simply nothing given at the 7th trumpet to relates AT ALL to 1 Thes. 4:17 (except in someone's imagination.)

Paul also showed in 2 Thess.2 that the 'day of the Lord' is also when Christ's coming is, and our gathering to Him,

Sorry, but that is not at all what Paul shows us there. If there was ever a contraversial verse, this is it. There are a few things we can learn from those verese: they were fearful that they had MISSED the gathering together, because they were told that they were already IN the day of the Lord. It seems that they had learned from Paul that the gathering must come before the day of the Lord. So Paul begins with the coming and gathering (since that is what they beleive they have missed).

Paul says that they could not possibly be IN the day of the Lord, because that day could not arrive without two events coming first: The departure of the restrainer (taken out of the way) and then the revealing of the man of sin. Once those two events happen, then, and only then would someone know they are in the day of the Lord. Paul BOLDY states "NOw you know who is restraining..."

Why on earth would he write someting like that - unless he just had written either who the restrainer was, or who was "taken out of the way." There is only one thing given there that even remotely can be something "taken out of the way." That is hidden in verse three. Apparently Paul did not want just anyone to understand what he meant here.
So Paul tells us here that we are GONE (as the restrainer) BEFORE the day of the Lord. In fact, us here is preventing the day of the Lord from coming.

In 1 Thes 5, Paul hints that Gods wrath is assocaited with the Day of the Lord, and WE HAVE NO APPOINTMENT with His wrath; meaning we are gone before the Wrath begins. Paul gives is three verses in his letters telling us we are not going to be here for His wrath.

Also, no rewards are handed out to the saints until Christ's coming.

OK, this seems like a reasonable statement. But, lets examine the context: The phrase just before that reads: "the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." WAIT!! HOLD IT A SECOND!! Are the dead judged here too?


Rev 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened...

What is going on? Are the dead judged here at the 7th trumpet - - or are they judged AFTER the 1000 years? Which is it?

The truth are, they are judged AFTER the 1000 years.

Now, let's examine these verses that you choose for doctrine and timing:

Rev 11
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying...

So what we read after this, is what the 24 elders SAY. Do you suppose they could be giving a prophecy of future events?

the nations were angry
thy wrath is come
the time of the dead, that they should be judged
that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints
shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

WHEN does God destroy those which destroy the earth? Right here at the 7th trumpet? In truth, no, these are given a prophecies of FUTURE EVENTS. Therefore, we CANNOT establish timing doctrine on these verses.

What happens is exactly what Rev.11:15-18 shows, all kingdoms on earth become Christ's as He begins His literal reign over all nations, meaning Satan is locked in the pit.

You were OK as long as you were quoting scripture. But when you say, "meaning.." that is opinion. Go back to Revelation 20 to see where Satan is locked in a pit. That is LONG after the 7th trumpet. Why does the kingdoms becoming the kingdoms of Our Lord mean that Satan is locked up? In truth, it does not: In fact, John tells us plainly that as soon as the 7th trumpet is sounded, Michael goes to WAR to kick Satan out of the heavenlies. NOT DOWN TO THE PIT!!

This is clearly NOT the pit:
Rev 12:13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

It is Rev.20:1-4 timing.

No no no no no! Rev. 20 timing is Rev 20 timing. What gives you the right to rearrange?

You cannot rearrange this book! John put revelation 20 where it is, because those events happen LONG AFTER the 7th trumpet.

Along with that, the time of His wrath upon the wicked happens

,

I guess we can say "it happens," but it certainly does not begin here, nor end here. This is an Greek aorist verb that "is not inflect to show tense." (Thayers). In other words, there is no timing given in this Greek verb translates into English as "is come." All we can say is that God's wrath is associated with this time frame. Since His wrath began with the trumpets, of course it is still ongoing.

the time of the dead, etc.

Again, clearly a prophecy of FUTURE events.

If that Rev.11:18 was not there, you might have had a case, though the Rev.11:15 verse of Christ taking reign would still conflict with what you're saying, because you're implying by that lease idea that Satan can still rule on earth with all kingdoms having become Christ's with His reign. That idea is a big conflict with what's written there.

Rev 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Don't read into this more than is here: It in no way says that Jesus takes possession at this time. John shows us clearly that He as given the beast 42 months to reign, STARTING at this point. Jesus will not go back on His word: the beast will get his 42 months. One thing we can be sure of from this: the kingdoms of this world will NEVER AGAIN go to Satan.

Christ takes possession of all kingdoms on the earth is exactly... what it means, and He begins His literal reign on earth with His saints at that time. The 42 months is up when that 7th trumpet happens. That is the "last trump" Paul taught.

To say this, you must tear out chapters 12-20. Because they don't fit your theory. Can you find the word "coming" in this chapter? Go ahead: search!! What it DOES say is this:

17: "O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come"

Did you catch that? In their prophecy, they said that He is TO COME. (by the way, this is NOT an aorist verb.) Of course this is pointing right to chapter 19.

Sorry, but "his saints" dont arrive until chapter 19, about 3 1/2 years AFTER this event.

You think others who can read The Bible for theirselves can't see how you're denying the Scripture as written there? Your affirmation that I've rearranged the Scripture won't hold water. And it's fairly evident you don't understand how the Old Testament Books of God's prophets are layed out either, for the timeline within them is constantly moving back and forth from past, present, and future, just like our Lord's Book of Revelation also does.

I am not denying them, I am understanding them. There is a big difference. You are reading FAR MORE into the 7th trumpet than what John put there. May I suggest you LEAVE the 7th trumpet for a while, and concentrate on chapters 12-16? See all that MUST happen between the 7th trumpet and His REAL coming in chapter 19. Of course it holds water: when you say that events written in chapter 20, actually happen at the 7th trumpet, you are rearranging! You only THINK John did not write this in chornological order, because you don't understand His chronology. I am here to tell you it makes PERFECT sense in the order it is written. If you think you must rearrange, then you must come up with conclusive proof that John did not write it in order. Good luck with that.

Just as an asside, why did John put 12:6, the woman fleeing, and verse 14, right there just AFTER the 7th trumpet? Why is she fleeing? Do you have a good explanation? I say she is fleeing because she just saw the abomination, that happened at the moment the 7th trumpet was sounded in heaven. So just a few verses after the 7th trumpet, we see those living in Judea fleeing - exactly what Jesus told them to do. Then we see Satan cast down from the heavens, RIGHT IN TIME to possess the beast. Why do you suppose chapter 13 is where it is, rather than somewhere between the seals? Of course, it is here because John is at the MIDPOINT of the week here. There are FIVE (5) verses with the 1260 days/42 months' 3 1/2 years in 11-13. EAch of these is a POINTER right to the midpoint of the week. You see, EACH of these is an event that begins at the midpoint and goes to the end of the week. Therefore, they are in the EXACT ORDER they will happen.

I am being limited by the server, so I will post the second half of this on another post.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Post continued: Coop

I've already shown how that Rev.11:18 verse is declaring events that are also given later for the 7th vial. That forces us to follow the order per the type of events, and not simply by wanting to make Revelation read like every chapter's events are in chronological order.

Yup, and you had to use prophecy verses to prove it!! How silly is that? Or course prophecy is looking forward in time to FUTURE events. So in reality you proved nothing.

Let's start here:
Do you think the seals are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?
Do you think the Trumpets are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?
Do you think the Vials are not in the right order? Must you rearrange them?

I'm not doing the rearranging, you are, per the traditions of men that you follow. It's obvious you're not paying close attention to what's contained in the events given. The very first seal of the one on the white horse going to conquer, what event is that? If you say it's Christ's coming, then how is that the 1st seal and not the 6th seal? If you say that's antichrist, also, how does that happen on the 1st seal?

Sorry, but everything you write shows me a lack of understanding. The best question you could ask about the first seal is WHEN. If you look at the context, the when was about 33 AD. If you study types, you see that John used the color white, I think 16 or 17 other times in this book, to represent RIGHTEOUSNESS. If anyone even thinks this first seal represents evil, will be showing their lack of understanding. God used white from Genesis to maps to represent righteousness. There is simply NO WAY this first seal can represent evil. In truth, it is to represent the CHURCH of Jesus Christ, sent out to make disciples of all nations. By the way, if you FIND where I have rearranged anything in this book, please point it out? I don't think I have.

The last 3 trumpet events are in proper order, we know that for certain, because Christ gave 3 woe periods.

I say ALL the trumpets are in order, else the numbering is silly. God is not silly. WE learned in first grade or earlier that 2 FOLLOWS 1. It is called counting. So I know ALL are in proper order.

The events of the seven seals and seven vials must be weighed according to the order given with the last three trumpets. On the 6th trumpet the locust army is loosed upon the earth, the four angels at the Euphrates being unbound. On the 6th vial, the spirits of devils are working miracles going to the kings of the earth and the whole world, and the Euphrates is dried for the kings of the east to cross in prep for battle.

Just take this to the bank: NO TRUMPET will be sounded until all seven seals are broken, and NO vial will be poured out until all seven of the trumpets are sounded. If you choose to rearrange, you will be proven wrong.

I never denied that our Lord doesn't come on the 7th vial. His coming is on the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

This is laughable. Go ahead and believe that. You will be proven wrong. Can you not picture a scroll rolled up and sealed with seals along its edge, so it cannot be unrolled? How could anyone unroll to see the inside until all 7 are broken? It seems that it can be unrolled just a tiny bit with each seal: so that seal is what is read from the scroll. But the trumpets are INSIDE, and cannot be read until ALL seals are broken. (Just my opinion here. No verse for this.)

If you study Isaiah 2 and Joel 2, you will see that they point straight to the 6th seal for their fulfillment. And of course, they are BOTH speaking of the day of the Lord. Then, Joel three speaks of His coming at the end of the 70th week. Both Joel 2 and Joel three have signs in the sun and moon, but the Joel two signs happen at the 6th seal, while the Joel 3 signs happen AFTER the tribulation, just as Jesus said. So the 6th seal is the SIGN of the start of the Day of the Lord, and that day actually starts with the 7th seal. Sorry, Jesus does NOT come back at the start of the day of the Lord, any more than he comes back at the midpoint, marked by the 7th trumpet. This is all just imagination.

Do you notice the order? Neither God nor John was confused as to chronology.

I notice the order, but I don't think you do, otherwise you would have included other relevant Scripture written along with that period from the end of the 2nd woe to the start of the 3rd woe-7th trumpet. The 3rd woe starts within "the same hour" the 2nd woe ends. That means you CANNOT just move the 7th trumpet to the midpoint of the tribulation, which is your attempt to rearrange the Scripture.[/quote]

No no no!! Sorry, I DID NOT MOVE it. It has BEEN there all the time as the MARKER for the abomination. It is just too bad that with your preconceptions you cannot see it.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Oh my oh my. Again, this is laughable. You have no understanding of what John is doing here. You must think that the 70th week is 1260, plus 42 months, plus 1260, plus 3 1/2 years, plus yet another 42 months.

Look, John is at the midpoin or very near it, here in chapter 11. He is told to measure the temple. That may be a week before the exact midpoint. He is told that the gentiles will trample the temple for 42 months. So WHEN does this time START? I say it starts right here, just a few days before the abmination and 7th trumpet.

Next, John does NOT takes us through those 42 months; they are just mentioned. OF COURSE they are the 42 months of the SECOND half of the 70th week. So they MUST start near the abmination that splits the week.

So at the end of this verse, John is STILL just before the 7th trumpet in timing, and just before the abomination.

Next, John is introduced to the two witnesses? Why here in 11:3? BEcause this is exactly WHEN they will show up: 3 1/2 days before the abmination and 7th trumpet. So at th end of this verse, John is 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week. Believe it!

But what happens in verse 4, 5. 6? God starts taking John on a SIDE JOURNEY down their 1260 days towards the END OF THE WEEK. In other words, this is a Parenthesis!! The ONLY VERSE here that is in John's chronology is verse 3.

So the chronology is as follows:

Measure the temple: 42 months of trampling startiing HERE.
Two witnesses show up, 3 1/2 days before the abomination.
(parenthesis - verses 4-13 - a side trip down THIER last half of the week - parenthesis)
Two woes have past, the their comes quickly (seconds before the exact midpoint of the week)
The seventh trumpet sounds (marks the EXACT midpoint.)
The woman flees, minutes after the abominaton.
SAtan is cast out, because His lease has run out.
Satan goes after the woman.

THIS is John's chronology. So your "the same hour" is actually at the END of the two witnesses 1260 days, or the exact day of the 7th vial. So the same hour is the same hour of the 7th vial, and IT IS THE SAME earthquake. This is not rearranging; it is understanding.
YOU MISSED the parenthesis. That threw your timing off by 1260 days. John was near the exact midpoint with the 42 months, he was near the midpoint with the 1260 days, he was near the midpoint with the 1260 days of the woman fleeing, he was near the midpoint with the 3 1/2 years, and he was STILL near the midpoint with the 42 months. Therefore, verses 4-13 MUST be, and ARE a parenthesis NOT AT ALL RELATED to the chronology.

When Christ begins His "thousand years" reign on earth with His saints, Satan is locked in the pit, along with those who ruled with him (see Isaiah 14 for another example of that).

I can agree with this. It happens in chapter 19, AFTER the 70th week has finished. (it ends with the 7th vial.)

Per Zech.14, Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and the gathering of His to Him happens there.

STOP!!! WHO said the gathering happens there? Zech. certainly did not tell you this. Prove this statement.

The idea that Christ's reign with His saints then is from Heaven is a TRADITION OF MEN. When the 7th trumpet happens, which is the "last trump" per Paul, Christ's coming happens and the raising of the dead, and all on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye.

This is the TRADITION OF MEN. It is just not backed up by scripture. You only imagine that the 7th trump is the last trump of Paul. Well, go ahead and imagine, but you will be proven wrong. You are pulling scriptures together and THINK or imagine they happen here, when John shows us clearly that they happen at ANOTHER time. So then, you must REARRANGE to make your theory work.

IDEA!!! ( I need a lightbulb smiley) WHY NOT just leave His coming in Chapter 19, where it really is, and you won't have to rearrange!!! Do you really think John was THAT confused, and had to add chapters 12,13,14, 15,16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 OUT OF ORDER?

I will give you a hint: I don't find the need to rearrange anything. It all fits perfectly the way it was written. But, you cannot use a prophecy of a FUTURE event to determine timing.

You're confused about the "last week" of Daniel's 70 weeks. When the "abomination of desolation" happens, that will begin the "great tribulation".

Hmmm. I'm the one confused, when you are doing all the rearranging? I agree with your second sentence here. The time of great tribulation will begin very shortly after the abomination.

That period was originally to be 42 months, or 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years, meaning the last half of the 7 years. But Christ shortened that time for the sake of His elect.

I actually agree with this too. But he 42 months was not, IS NOT and will not be shorted: the beast will get is full 42 months of authority. But the days when he will be causing great tribulation will be shortened. He will be rendered helpless by the vials of God's wrath.

The 6th trumpet is when Satan's locust army are loosed upon the earth (Rev.9). Until the 3rd woe starts, the tribulation is still going on (Rev.11).

How can you get to the days of great tribulation here in the trumpets, when John has NOT EVEN introduced the beast that CAUSES them, until chapter 13? This is rearranging. The days of great tribulation CANNOT begin until the woman flees. That will be the very beginnings of terror, and Satan, just kicked out of heaven, goes after her. He will possess the beast, and use the beast to go after the remnant of her seed. Again, you want the tribulation to end, before John even begins it. :toofunny :rolling

God's "two witnesses" are killed at the very end of the tribulation period, after their 1260 days Testimony, which brings the end of the 2nd woe period and start of the 3rd woe.

This statement shows very clearly where you have missed John's chronology. You missed the parenthesis. You missed the fact that once John is finished with his narrative of the two witnesses, he is right back at the midpoint with the 7th trumpet. ALL VERSES after this prove my point. Yes, they ARE killed at the end of their 1260 days, which BEGIN just before the abomination, and END 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial closes the 70th week. The 3rd woe IS the 7th trumpet, and Is all of the 7 vials.

The 42 months period the Gentiles "tread" the court and holy city is the same time the dragon is given power over the saints, per Rev.13. Those Gentiles of Rev.11:2 are not about us, unless you intend to be deceived.

I agree. But where will you START the 42 months? I say they are all started at the abomination, or very close to it.

[quote:2n4azwmj]The Euphrates dries up to prepare the kings of the east for Armageddon (day of the Lord timing) against Christ's army He brings with Him when He comes.

Yep, the day of The Lord happens with Armageddon, for the events of God's wrath upon the wicked, and the end of this world by fire, are events Paul and Peter linked with the day of The Lord. Zechariah 14 even includes a graphic description of how the wicked will be consumed while standing on the earth in that day. The Ezekiel 39 chapter is about God ending this present world, raining hail down upon Satan's host army that will come upon Israel out of the north quarters. He says He will send a fire upon Gog, and those who dwell carelessly in the isles (i.e., the rebellious). Israel will afterwards be burying the dead of that army for sevens years as written there. That's when they shall call that valley in Israel the "valley of Hamongog", which means 'the tumult or multitude of Gog'.[/quote:2n4azwmj]

The day of the Lord "happens?" When does it START? John tells us it begins way back at the 7th seal.

The tribulation will end on that 7th last trumpet, which is what the Rev.11:15-18 verses show. It is also 7th vial timing. We're being given a short look forward in those Rev.11:15-18 verses.

Not according to John. Did you happen to read the last three words at the 7th vial? "IT IS DONE." John is telling us that the 70th week has FINISHED here. You are 3 1/2 years TO SOON on every point. You want to finish the days of GT before John begins them.

If you believe anyone is raptured prior to any other who might come to Christ during the tribulation, then that is the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, and not what is written.

Yes, certainly it is pretrib, because John shows the church in heaven, before the 70th week BEGINS. Look, I can see how you can be so confused, because you don't have a clue where the 70th week IS in Revelation. (Most pretribbers don't either.) Of course it is what is written; that is why so many millions believe it. That is why Jesus and John and the Holy Spirit believe it. That is why Paul, when talking about the day of the Lord, said we have NO appointment with his wrath.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote;

I truly don't know how in the world you get that idea that the 7th trumpet happens prior to God's two witnesses giving their Testimony. No such idea can come from what's written there in Rev.11. And Rev.12 in no way modifies it.

It is really VERY simple. They are introduced to John in the vision VERY near the exact midpoint of the entire narrative. John is told that they will witness for 1260 days STARTING with the moment John is introduced to them.

God could have left off with verse 3, and gone straight to the 7th trumpet, for THAT IS THE chronology.

But, once God shows John WHEN they will arrive on earth to begin their testimony, God takes JUST THEM on a journey through their entire 1260 days. This is PARALLEL to the 42 months of the beast. DO we find HIS 42 months here in chapter 11? When does HIS 42 months start? The truth is, all these time frames begin VERY NEAR the abomination. The two witnesses begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the abomination. So if you go 1260 days past the abomination, what do you come to? You will be 3 1/2 days from the END of the 70th week.

If you take the 42 months of the beasts reign, and follow HIM through all 42 months, where will you end up? What do you come to? You will be at the END of the 70th week.

If you take the 42 months of the trampling of the temple, to the END, what do you come to?
If you take the 1260 days of the woman fleeing, what do you come to?

Can you see that all of these five given times are Parallel? They all begin about the same time, and END about the same time. In fact, they all end VERY CLOSE to, or exactly ON the 7th vail, with ENDS the 70th week.

SINCE they are parallel, can you see that the verses that take the two witnesses through thier 1260 days MUST BE a parenthesis? If not, you have the 1260 days of the woman fleeing AFTER the 1260 days of the two witnesses, and then the 42 months of the beast AFTER the 1260 days of the woman fleeing.

This is simply NOT the way we are to understand it. When John is introduced to the beast, in chapter 13, he is AT THE MIDPOINT still, or very near it. So after John gets to the verse with the 42 months, all the rest of the chapter is a parenthesis.

So there is a pattern: John is introduced to an event or person, and that introduction is IN THE chornology, or the chornology is IN the introduction. BUT, once the introduction is made, the REST OF The story is parenthesis with NO TIMEING. The chronology is just as if the parenthesis is NOT THERE.

So the timing goes from the intro, of the two witnesses, just before the midpoint.'
The NEXT realtime event is the 7th trumpet! You take the parenthesis as If IT IS NOT THERE. It is not involved with the chronology.

So the truth is, the two witnesses have only been testifying for 3 1/2 days, when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote

Remember, our Lord Jesus gave us 3 woe periods to go by, to look at events in order. They begin at the end of Rev.8 and end in Rev.11. The woe periods do not continue into Rev.12 and thereafter! Instead, the Rev.12 through 19 chapters are more revealings of the events already given WITHIN the 'woe' chapters. Even the first five verses of Rev.12 is a summary of God's Plan, going all the way back to the time when Satan first rebelled against Him to the time of Christ's future reign on earth. Christ reign with the "rod of iron" doesn't begin until the 7th trumpet, and Rev.20. Yet ruling with that "rod of iron" is even first mentioned back at Rev.2:27 about His elect who will reign with Him.

If you do not recognize the parenthesis, your week will be VERY long.

The first woe is the 5th trumpet.
The second woe is the 6th trumpet
The third woe is the 7th trumpet.

BUT, what happens at the 7th trumpet that is a WOE? Nothing. You see, the 7th trumpet opens the way for the 7 vials of God's wrath, which IS the 3rd woe.

chapter 12 is God revealing the dragon to John. God wants to show John what the dragon will be doing during the 70th week, since that is the MAIN theme of all these chapters. God told me to count how many times the dragon is named, including pronouns. I think the count was 36. There can be no doubt that what God spoke to me is true: the main theme of this chapter is God introducing John to the dragon.

BUT, God chose to show John by way of vision, what the dragon was doing at the birth of Jesus. He had tried to KILL Him as a child. So the first five verses are a "history lesson" to John, of events before He was even born. Yes, one sentence does speak of Satan's fall.

Instead, the Rev.12 through 19 chapters are more revealings of the events already given WITHIN the 'woe' chapters.

12 is God revealing the dragon to John.
13 is god revealing the beast and false prophet to John.
14 is about events that must take place to get ready for the days of great tribulation caused by the beast of chapter 13, and the dragon of chapter 12.
15 is preliminary events of the 7 vials.
16 IS the seven vials
17 and 18 are a closeup view of the destruction that occured at the 7th vail. Specifically the city of Jersualem: called bablyon.

So there IS no rehashing, no flashback, no backpeddling. Each chapter comes AFTER what came before. It is in perfect order.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote:

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(KJV)

Rev 11:11
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
(KJV)

Only AFTER... they have FINISHED their Testimony are they killed. 3 and 1/2 days later is the ending of the 2nd woe, and the start of the 3rd woe (7th trumpet). How long is their Testimony for? 1260 days. By the end of the 2nd woe, it means they have FINISHED 1260 days of prophesying.

Don't you understand that means the 2nd woe lasted at least 1260 days? When does their Testimony START then? At the midpoint, the latter half of the 7 years tribulation timing. Does the 3rd last woe happen at the midpoint prior to their 1260 days Testimony? Of course not, unless you wrongly think the number 3 comes before the number 2.

Yes, they are killed AFTER they have testified for 1260 days. What you don't realize is that that 1260 days takes you clear the the 7th vial.

The 42 months of the beast takes you all the way to the 7th vial.

You still have not got the idea of a ( parenthesis). You do understand that they did not HAVE them in the Greek. But that does not mean that the IDEA is not presented AS a parenthesis.

You solve the problem of all these 3 1/2 year time frames being parallel, by rearranging. That is not John's method. John does it by parenthesis. It is harder to follow, but I know you could do it, if you put your mind to it.

You have agreed that these are parrallel times. So while the two witnesses are testifying, the beast is doing his abomination and desolation stuff, and the temple is being trampled, and the woman is protected in the wilderness. How then, can you explain that the two witnesses die BEFORE the 7th trumpet, and at the same time, BEFORE the 1260 days of the woman? To believe that, you must ADD the days together.

The truth is, they are introduced days before the abomination (think 7th trumpet) they testify for three and one half days, and the 7th trumpet sounds. The KEEP ON TESTIFYIng while the beast is chasing the woman. They keep on testifying while the beast is setting up his mark. They testify while the beast beheads millions. They testify right up to 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial.

If you MUST rearrange, then rearrange 12:4-13 to somewhere in chapter 13. Because that part is a parentheisis and CANNOT be considered as real time.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Veteran wrote;

I truly don't know how in the world you get that idea that the 7th trumpet happens prior to God's two witnesses giving their Testimony. No such idea can come from what's written there in Rev.11. And Rev.12 in no way modifies it.

It is really VERY simple. They are introduced to John in the vision VERY near the exact midpoint of the entire narrative. John is told that they will witness for 1260 days STARTING with the moment John is introduced to them.

So just because it's the 11th chapter of Revelation out of 22 chapters, that's how you get the events described in Rev.11 are "exact midpoint" timing? That's very... weak, and not at all how our Lord is assigning the time of events in His Book of Revelation.

God could have left off with verse 3, and gone straight to the 7th trumpet, for THAT IS THE chronology.

That's simply ludicrous, sorry to say. Back in Rev.10, which is parenthetical, John is told in the days when the 7th angel begins to sound, they mystery of God will be finished as He declared to His servants the prophets. That means all the prophecy God gave about the end is to be completed when the 7th trumpet begins to sound. Because you've begun on a totally false premise, the rest of your theory is unsound also.

 

[veteran]

Veteran wrote

Remember, our Lord Jesus gave us 3 woe periods to go by, to look at events in order. They begin at the end of Rev.8 and end in Rev.11. The woe periods do not continue into Rev.12 and thereafter! Instead, the Rev.12 through 19 chapters are more revealings of the events already given WITHIN the 'woe' chapters. Even the first five verses of Rev.12 is a summary of God's Plan, going all the way back to the time when Satan first rebelled against Him to the time of Christ's future reign on earth. Christ reign with the "rod of iron" doesn't begin until the 7th trumpet, and Rev.20. Yet ruling with that "rod of iron" is even first mentioned back at Rev.2:27 about His elect who will reign with Him.

If you do not recognize the parenthesis, your week will be VERY long.

The first woe is the 5th trumpet.
The second woe is the 6th trumpet
The third woe is the 7th trumpet.

BUT, what happens at the 7th trumpet that is a WOE? Nothing. You see, the 7th trumpet opens the way for the 7 vials of God's wrath, which IS the 3rd woe.

So "nothing" happens on the 7th trumpet - 3rd last 'woe' period? That's ludicrous also, and totally disregards the events given there to happen at the ending of the 2nd woe and start of the 3rd woe, which is a great earthquake, and all the kingdoms of this world becoming Christ's, God's wrath, the time of the dead, and the time of reward for the saints. QUITE A LOT happens on that 7th trumpet per God's Word there, and also other Scripture related to that last trump, like 1 Cor.15 and 1 Thess.4 & 5.

We're being given 'day of the Lord' events there on that 7th trumpet in Rev.11. The subject changes totally in Rev.12 back to the time with the war in Heaven with Michael when the dragon is cast down to the earth to go persecute the saints on earth. A woe is even given along with the dragon's casting down to the earth there.

chapter 12 is God revealing the dragon to John. God wants to show John what the dragon will be doing during the 70th week, since that is the MAIN theme of all these chapters. God told me to count how many times the dragon is named, including pronouns. I think the count was 36. There can be no doubt that what God spoke to me is true: the main theme of this chapter is God introducing John to the dragon.

The first five verses of Rev.12 are a summary of past events, and about Israel, except the time when Christ will rule with a rod of iron with His elect priests and kings, which is still future to us. Satan's original rebellion is mentioned, along with the type system he first rebelled with, one of ten horns, seven crowns and seven heads. So right there, we already are given a FLASHBACK of past events.

Then we are told the symbolic 'woman' (Israel) fled into the wilderness for 1260 days where she is protected by God. THEN the war in Heaven happens with the dragon and his angels cast to the earth, and he has wrath for the woman, and goes to make war with a remnant of the woman who keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. THAT IS TRIBULATION TIMING. It is another picture (revealing) we're given of what happens to begin the great tribulation, the same time period of God's "two witnesses" on the 2nd woe - 6th trumpet. The war in Heaven there is linked with Daniel 12:1, the time when Michael will make a stand, and a time of trouble begins on earth.

So with the Rev.12:7-17 verses, the timeline is going back to the start of the 2nd woe period events, the same time when God sends His two witnesses to give a Testimony for 1260 days in Jerusalem. The 2nd woe is tied to the 6th trumpet, even as you agreed. That's when the locust army is loosed on the earth per Rev.9, and they go to deceive the world by the smoke, fire, and brimstone that issues out of their mouths (meaning lies of deception). And Rev.13 is a deeper description of the events to occur on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, when the dragon is cast down to the earth and sets up false idol worship. In Rev.17, our Lord Jesus is going BACK to explain events of Rev.13 concerning the two beasts linked with the "great city". How is that NOT a "rehashing" of previously given events back in Rev.13? It's not just a "rehashing" of events, but more DETAIL about the previous given events of Rev.13, specifically the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, and the ten horned, ten crowned, seven headed beast system of Rev.13:1. Rev.17 is another layer of the onion being peeled back for us by Christ.

But you said:

So there IS no rehashing, no flashback, no backpeddling. Each chapter comes AFTER what came before. It is in perfect order.

That's not what my Bible shows.

 

[veteran]

Only AFTER... they have FINISHED their Testimony are they killed. 3 and 1/2 days later is the ending of the 2nd woe, and the start of the 3rd woe (7th trumpet). How long is their Testimony for? 1260 days. By the end of the 2nd woe, it means they have FINISHED 1260 days of prophesying.

Don't you understand that means the 2nd woe lasted at least 1260 days? When does their Testimony START then? At the midpoint, the latter half of the 7 years tribulation timing. Does the 3rd last woe happen at the midpoint prior to their 1260 days Testimony? Of course not, unless you wrongly think the number 3 comes before the number 2.

Yes, they are killed AFTER they have testified for 1260 days. What you don't realize is that that 1260 days takes you clear the the 7th vial.

Now wait a minute, don't just shoot to the Rev.16 chapter about the vials just yet. What I posted is discussing the 2nd woe and 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period. You've stated the 7th trumpet is the same time God's two witnesses BEGIN their 1260 days Testimony, i.e., the "exact midpoint" of the tribulation. That's clearly false, because the 7th trumpet sounds at the END of their 1260 days of Testimony. You're the one attempting to rearrange the events to fit your doctrine.

The 42 months of the beast takes you all the way to the 7th vial.

I know it does, so does the 1260 days God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem. BUT my post you quoted is discussing the 7th trumpet, not the seventh vial. What your understanding shows is that 7th TRUMPET being declared there in Rev.11, right AFTER the 2nd woe, CONFLICTS with your false assumption that all Revelation chapters should FLOW in perfect chronological order. So you simply intend to assign totally different events to that 7th trumpet, like it's the "exact midpoint" of the tribulation, instead of heeding The Scripture there as written which shows it is about the END of the tribulation and coming of Christ Jesus.

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote;

I truly don't know how in the world you get that idea that the 7th trumpet happens prior to God's two witnesses giving their Testimony. No such idea can come from what's written there in Rev.11. And Rev.12 in no way modifies it.

It is really VERY simple. They are introduced to John in the vision VERY near the exact midpoint of the entire narrative. John is told that they will witness for 1260 days STARTING with the moment John is introduced to them.

So just because it's the 11th chapter of Revelation out of 22 chapters, that's how you get the events described in Rev.11 are "exact midpoint" timing? That's very... weak, and not at all how our Lord is assigning the time of events in His Book of Revelation.

[quote:2pge27ar]God could have left off with verse 3, and gone straight to the 7th trumpet, for THAT IS THE chronology.

That's simply ludicrous, sorry to say. Back in Rev.10, which is parenthetical, John is told in the days when the 7th angel begins to sound, they mystery of God will be finished as He declared to His servants the prophets. That means all the prophecy God gave about the end is to be completed when the 7th trumpet begins to sound. Because you've begun on a totally false premise, the rest of your theory is unsound also.[/quote:2pge27ar]

YOu can believe what you want. God gives you that freedom. But did you just happen to notice that the five pointers to the midpoint, i.e. the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years, are centered close to the 7th trumpet? TWO come before it, and THREE come after it. Did you even stop to THINK that each of these five ARE POINTERS or clues to the exact midpoint, for each of them are to begin close to the 7th trumpet? I want you to read something:

Gal 1
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I know how Paul went and preached HIS gospel for years, before finally going up to Jerusalem to check with those that were "somewhat" among the people and ended saying,

Gal 2:6 for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

How did Paul GET His gospel? By Revelation knowledge. How did Peter say, "thou art the Christ?" It was by revelation knowledge. ON WHAT did Jesus say He would build His church? Revelation knowledge.

So you ask me, "So just because it's the 11th chapter of Revelation out of 22 chapters, that's how you get the events described in Rev.11 are "exact midpoint" timing? That's very... weak, and not at all how our Lord is assigning the time of events in His Book of Revelation."

I did not ask for it, but God did it for me anyway. And I appologize to know one. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You can believe it or not.

I was minding my own business, reading Daniel 9:27. When I got to the word MIdst the word of the Lord came to me: I mean, I heard Him speak: I heard WORDS: He said:

"You could find that exact midpoint [midst] "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation." I was two dumbfounded to speak - but my spiritman was not. He immediately ask - and I got to "listen in,"

"How would I find that?" Again He answered me:

"Whenever I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint, and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be VERY close to the exact midpoint."

To be truthful, I was not looking for the midpoint. I had no thought to find the midpoint. But HE, the Holy Spirit, had a better idea, and sent me to FIND that exact midpoint. He said it was "clearly marked." He told me how to get close to it.

So, you can believe it or not. I can tell you boldy that the exact midpoint is clearly marked by a SEVEN: the 7th trumpet. After He spoke to me, I immersed myself in chapters 11-13. I spent hours each day, for about 2 months, trying to find what He sent me to find. And of course I kept bugging Him for help!! Then one day, I noticed something unusual about 11:14 & 15. ABout when I noticed it, the Holy Spirit verfied that I had found what He sent me to find. I saw that the exact midpoint was "clearly marked" by a seven, so I RUSHED to the 7th vial, and red the words "it is done." (After God had spoken to me about the midpoint, He ended by saying that I could also find the "entire 70th week" "clearly marked." By this I knew that He would use the same "marker.") So I can tell you boldly that the entire 70th week is MARKED by the sevens. You can believe it or not.

But, just notice this:

15And the seventh angel sounded;
worship
the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying....
the temple of God was opened in heaven (not an event - does not take any TIMING - just a statement.)
12:1-5 short "History lesson." (this was HIs word, not mine.) This is a parenthesis with NO TIMING.
12:6 6And the woman fled into the wilderness.

Now, compare that verse 6 with this:

Matt 24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

YOu think John was not chronological: and you are very wrong. The woman is fleeing within seconds of real time, after she has seen the abomination. John was in heaven. He did not see the abomination. But he did see the "marker" in heaven, of the exact midpoint of the week on the earth: the 7th trumpet.
Again, you have a choice to believe it or not. If you can read without preconceptions, you will find it is truth. Each of these mentions of the 3 1/2 years is a pointer to the midpoint, and they surround the 7th trumpet. To tell you the truth, I did not even NOTICE that chapter 11 is the middle of the book!!

THANKS!!!

By the way, what IS that "mystery of God" that would be finished at the 7th trumpet? You wrote:

That means all the prophecy God gave about the end is to be completed when the 7th trumpet begins to sound. Because you've begun on a totally false premise, the rest of your theory is unsound also.

Sorry, but it is you who started on a false premise. One can never see the truth of scripture will preconceived glasses on. May I suggest you lay aside all preconceptions, and just read it maybe 50 times, to assimilate it, without trying to use your human understanding, and they ask HIM for revelation knowledge?

Coop

 

[veteran]

YOu can believe what you want. God gives you that freedom. But did you just happen to notice that the five pointers to the midpoint, i.e. the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years, are centered close to the 7th trumpet? TWO come before it, and THREE come after it. Did you even stop to THINK that each of these five ARE POINTERS or clues to the exact midpoint, for each of them are to begin close to the 7th trumpet?

What I see you doing is playing a type of symbolic mysticism with the Revelation chapter layout, instead of actually heeding the TYPE of events being given by Holy Writ on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. That's why you wrongly think the 7th trumpet could ever be the midpoint of the tribulation.

We are to 'try' the spirits, to discern whether they are of God or not (1 John 4:1). And that discernment comes from staying in God's Word AS WRITTEN. No such 'revelation' like the one you espouse would ever come from God The Holy Spirit, because the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe timing with its WRITTEN EVENTS are so easy to grasp. To heed your 'revelation' you have to totally DENY those written events and time structure of the last two woe periods, and events of the 7th trumpet, and also what Rev.10:7 clearly states about the mystery of God being finished when the 7th angel begins to sound. You are not an Apostle like Paul, and you do NOT have authority to override God's Holy Writ. No true Apostle or prophet from God would do such a thing anyway.

There's a couple of other folks here on this Forum I've noticed playing mysticism with Bible symbology, and allowing that to override common sense simplicity which comes from staying with what's written in God's Word. I understand how God's Word can appear to some as being too cornered and restrictive when staying with It as written, but that's just the way God's wanted His Word to be, precept upon precept, line upon line (Isa.28). I don't know if that mystical approach is coming from some folks here that have a background in the Jewish Kabbalah system of mysticism, but that's what it appears like. I'm aware of the Gematria numerology some use in that system based on assigning values to Hebrew characters in words, which a lot of that is dangerous, even "Bible Codes" junk. The Bible Code stuff is nothing but symbolic oriental pagan mysticism applied to The Bible, a type of practice used in the occult. It does not impart Truth, but instead confusion, because the whole system is based on deception that man can know hidden secrets or mysteries about God and His creation, sneaking around His back door. It's very important for Christian brethren to recognize that practice too, for discernment. Many Christian monks in ascetic monasteries fell into that mysticism practice in past centuries, and all it did was cause confusion.

 

[lecoop]

YOu can believe what you want. God gives you that freedom. But did you just happen to notice that the five pointers to the midpoint, i.e. the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years, are centered close to the 7th trumpet? TWO come before it, and THREE come after it. Did you even stop to THINK that each of these five ARE POINTERS or clues to the exact midpoint, for each of them are to begin close to the 7th trumpet?

What I see you doing is playing a type of symbolic mysticism with the Revelation chapter layout, instead of actually heeding the TYPE of events being given by Holy Writ on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. That's why you wrongly think the 7th trumpet could ever be the midpoint of the tribulation.

We are to 'try' the spirits, to discern whether they are of God or not (1 John 4:1). And that discernment comes from staying in God's Word AS WRITTEN. No such 'revelation' like the one you espouse would ever come from God The Holy Spirit, because the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe timing with its WRITTEN EVENTS are so easy to grasp. To heed your 'revelation' you have to totally DENY those written events and time structure of the last two woe periods, and events of the 7th trumpet, and also what Rev.10:7 clearly states about the mystery of God being finished when the 7th angel begins to sound. You are not an Apostle like Paul, and you do NOT have authority to override God's Holy Writ. No true Apostle or prophet from God would do such a thing anyway.

There's a couple of other folks here on this Forum I've noticed playing mysticism with Bible symbology, and allowing that to override common sense simplicity which comes from staying with what's written in God's Word. I understand how God's Word can appear to some as being too cornered and restrictive when staying with It as written, but that's just the way God's wanted His Word to be, precept upon precept, line upon line (Isa.28). I don't know if that mystical approach is coming from some folks here that have a background in the Jewish Kabbalah system of mysticism, but that's what it appears like. I'm aware of the Gematria numerology some use in that system based on assigning values to Hebrew characters in words, which a lot of that is dangerous, even "Bible Codes" junk. The Bible Code stuff is nothing but symbolic oriental pagan mysticism applied to The Bible, a type of practice used in the occult. It does not impart Truth, but instead confusion, because the whole system is based on deception that man can know hidden secrets or mysteries about God and His creation, sneaking around His back door. It's very important for Christian brethren to recognize that practice too, for discernment. Many Christian monks in ascetic monasteries fell into that mysticism practice in past centuries, and all it did was cause confusion.

I am overriding nothing. I am telling you the intent of the Holy Spirit when He had John write this. You can ignore it if you choose. Did you forget the verse where Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice?" I have heard the voice of God before. I KNOW His voice. It certainly was God telling me these things.
But your PRECONCEIVED ideas, have prevented you from seeing the truth. I have always stuck with what is written. Have you noticed that I always quote verses to discuss from?

I certainly don't go for mysticism. Is it that strange to you that God would speak to me? What? Has not never spoken words to you before? I would be surprised if He has not. We are His children. The Holy Spirit is the teacher - so why would it be surprising to you that He would teach?

Next, I don't "think" the 7th trumpet is the exact midpoint - KNOW it is.

You know, this seems familiar: Jesus came to the leaders in Jerusalem with the TRUTH, and they could not see it, for preconceived ideas they held about God. They thought they knew, when in fact, they did not. They did not even recognize their own God.

YOu don't recognize the 7th trumpet for what it really is, for your preconceived ideas as to what you THINK it is. Just for example, how many "Mysteries" are there in the New covenant? This mystery of the 7th trumpet could be any one of them, but it seems you have zeroed in on one, and are blind to any other possibility.

You have NEVER ANSWERED one question: why did John (and the Holy Spirit) put the fleeing (I say from the abomination) in 12:6? (This verse could have been anywhere.) In your mind, this must be 1260 days TO LATE for the fleeing Jesus mentioned. How do you answer this?

YOu seem to think that all the mentions of the 3 1/2 years are parallel accounts - as I do. Therefore, I am guessing you must think that they all being somewhere around the same time - right?

If so, then HOW can John be at the midpoint (start) of the 1260 days of the woman fleeing - when it is 1260 days AFTER the two witnesses who started at the midpoint? How do you solve this in your mind?

Do you believe the 42 months of the beasts authority begin AFTER the 1260 days of the woman fleeing is finished? If not, How do you solve this?

When in the overall picture, do you see the trumpets happening? Where do you START the 70th week?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Veteran: some questions:

Starts just before the midpoint - 42 months of trampling the temple court - ends at the end of the week.
Starts just before the midpoint - 1260 days of witnessing - ends 3 1/2 days before the end of week.
Starts at midpoint - 1260 days of fleeing into wilderness - ends at the end of the week.
Starts at the midpoint - 3 1/2 years of protection - ends near the end of the week.
Starts at the midpoint - beast's 42 months of authority - ends when he is cast into lake of fire.

These are five separate timelines, all running parallel to each other. Do we agree here? John writes of these in chapters 11-13. Two of these are written as starting before the 7th trump. Three are written down after the 7th trumpet.

Question: since John is the writer, does he not have the freedom, once he introduces one of these, to tell the readers of some events DURING their 3 1/2 years? He does this for the beast in chapter 13. Once the beast is introduced, and John writes that He is given 42 months of authority - John goes on to tell us SOME of the events that will take place DURING his 42 months. So: do you automatically assume then that the events in chapter 14 must then be 42 months after the timing of chapter 13?

When you read this:

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Do you assume that this 3 1/2 years must BEGIN 1260 days AFTER the woman began to flee in 12:6?

When you read of the trampling of the temple outer court, for 42 months, then in the very next verse read that the two witnesses will be given 1260 days to testify - do you assume that they will BEGIN AFTER the 42 months of trampling are finished?

Coop